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[Andreus Ixiris]

Shock and horror, people! When you're unable to tell people that they're doing it wrong, people do it wrong.

People complain about the cataclysmic drop in roleplay quality and the plummetting number of active roleplayers, and yet people are still too politically correct to call something quacking, dabbling in a pond and brandishing a large, blunt beak a duck. We all know what the cause of the afforementioned issues is, and yet you have to go to Slaver Filth levels of insanity for people to start agreeing to tell someone they're doing it wrong. Slaver Filth, incidentally, is an excellent example since his aberrent behaviour abruptly stopped after he was told by others that he was doing it wrong.

Vince - who, let's not kid ourselves here, this entire thread is about - gets a lot of his posts censored because he couches a lot of his statements in language and imagery so blunt you could shatter Ayers Rock with it, but the fact is he lays out truths that make people uncomfortable. In fact, he lays out one specific truth that makes this community uncomfortable: that its own overly permissive, criticism-averse atmosphere is choking it to death. This is the Eternal September the EVE roleplay community has brought upon itself.

[Zsaryna Adrelana]

But then, being too quick to stamp on other people for doing it wrong in your eyes causes problems in its own right. I mean, New Eden is a big place and there seem to be very few absolutes. I agree to an extent, with the aforementioned examples of fairy queen and daughter of Sansha, they should be informed that they're doing it wrong, but at the same time our community needs to give new players a chance to bed their characters in and get them used to operating in the world.

Also, if someone is 'doing it wrong', we should maybe not go wading in with both feet to chastise them for it.

[Lyn Farel]

In fact, he lays out one specific truth that makes this community uncomfortable: that its own overly permissive, criticism-averse atmosphere is choking it to death.

I think that you got it wrong by thinking that the goal of the community is 'criticism-averse'. It's just a question of basic respect.

Emphasis mine on the goal. The goal, and not the people and the community itself. I am not so sure for the latter. Having raised myself quite a lot of doing it wrong finger pointings, and being met with always the same kind of answers ("I can't find any point against yours to make, but I'm a paying customer and do what the hell I want, no matter what it implies for other players"), I can only agree with you on the rest of your point.

[Louella Dougans]

the thread isn't about Vince, that argument was brought up and dismissed on the first page.

[Desiderya]

Telling someone when they're doing it wrong is the most essential form of criticism, and the only tool that'll really help them move forward/in a more favorable direction. You can even do this without being insulting. The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.

But why are we even talking about it.Everything is awesome..

[Vincent Pryce]

The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.

This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.

That time has passed.

Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.

Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.

I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.

Occupy Backstage.

MA is best Pony.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.

This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo.
<snip>

I think you might have a point there. How would we go about setting up a rules change? And how can we avoid sliding into the other extreme?

[Andreus Ixiris]

But then, being too quick to stamp on other people for doing it wrong in your eyes causes problems in its own right. I mean, New Eden is a big place and there seem to be very few absolutes. I agree to an extent, with the aforementioned examples of fairy queen and daughter of Sansha, they should be informed that they're doing it wrong, but at the same time our community needs to give new players a chance to bed their characters in and get them used to operating in the world.

Also, if someone is 'doing it wrong', we should maybe not go wading in with both feet to chastise them for it.

Unfortunately, sometimes polite methods do not work. Individuals shouldn't be jumped upon rabidly the first time they make a mistake regarding the lore or the customs of the roleplaying community, but if they persistently show disregard for these things despite polite attempts to correct them, stronger measures should be taken.

I think that you got it wrong by thinking that the goal of the community is 'criticism-averse'. It's just a question of basic respect.

I never intended to imply I believe that the goal of the community itself is a criticism-adverse environment, and I apologise if my statement was ambiguously worded in that regard - what I feel is that regardless of its intention, a criticism-adverse environment is what this community has become.

Emphasis mine on the goal. The goal, and not the people and the community itself. I am not so sure for the latter. Having raised myself quite a lot of doing it wrong finger pointings, and being met with always the same kind of answers ("I can't find any point against yours to make, but I'm a paying customer and do what the hell I want, no matter what it implies for other players"), I can only agree with you on the rest of your point.

Thank you!

Things

<3

[Havohej]

The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.

This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.

That time has passed.

Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.

Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.

I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.

Occupy Backstage.

MA is best Pony.

As one of those people who was very active in those discussions in the smoke-filled room Scagga so generously provided us all to shape our ideas into the forum that Silver first suggested and I'd wanted so badly to put up (but lacked wide enough support because I'm an anti-social prick)...  I can't disagree with much of what you say, Vince.  But you see, here's the thing, as I see it:

We didn't want to build a new forum where the ruling clique, or even perception of a ruling clique, got away with shitposting and everyone else got moderated and banned.  We wanted any faction to feel free and welcome to post and discuss topics.  We wanted fresh discussion.  We wanted more opportunity/availability for cross-factional collaboration.  We wanted actual tangible OOC/IC divide across the board (lol).  We wanted so bloody much.  And most of it, we got.  Some of it, we still have.  But at the end of the day, there are a lot of whiny, soft-hearted, thin-skinned, emotionally unstable people in this overall community and the introduction of constructive criticism, if not handled carefully (moreso with some than with others), generates problems.

Case in point, there was recently some person whose name I don't feel worth remembering who posted this controversial 'blooder' themed thing which you, Vince, ripped the fuck apart.  Early in this person's thread, they were all "Tear it up, I'm ready! "  When they didn't find that replies were going mostly in favor, they edited the OP and deleted their forum account.  Now just the posts under greyname remain.  (which is why I don't feel it's worth remembering the name)

Yeah, you raised great points as to why that person was DIW.  Personally, though, I'd've just left it at "This is contrary to PF on just about all levels and it's a silly trope I'm tired of seeing."  IF I posted about it at all.

Yes, you'll get moderated.  Yes, you'll get various incremental bans.  You might even work your way to a p.ban.  Whatever, it's internet spaceships.  At the end of the day, I think the prevailing opinion remains that, if we don't keep it as tight/draconian/subjective/whatever as we do on certain things, we're gonne be right back where we were at the start of 2010.  With a dead forum largely inhabited by one clique and a bunch of try-hards opposing them until some new forum rises up, old bittervets check it out, post a few times and vanish, it gets a Community Spotlight from CCP and rolls on strong for a couple of years and repeats the cycle.

TL;DR: motherfuckers need to be less emo about receiving fair criticism, then people like Vince won't need to drop the mic and OcCuPpY BaCkStAgE or do anything else e-edgy.

If someone wants to start a serious discussion about revisiting the Rules & FAQ, their original intentions and their application over the last 4 years, Moderation Discussion is the place to start the thread.

[Utsukushi Shi]

Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.

Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.

[Morwen Lagann]

Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.

Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.

If I were allowed to ban people who do that, solely on the activity of their ingame account, you have no idea the kind of field day I would have.

[Havohej]

Is that a big enough 'thing'?  I mean, it's a very simple matter to add a "Bittervet Shitpoasting Forum" for bitters and inactives who are into that sort of thing, and move offending posts to it the same way we move 'em to the Katacombs Catacombs.

I'm the first to admit my Eve account is inactive at current, but I haven't posted about anything going on ingame in a good while, except the Ushra'Khan stuff, which I posted positively on - which is to say, I don't put myself in that group of posters.  And I think it's obviously I just kinda lurk quietly nowadays for the most part.

EDIT: Actually, don't answer that.  At least, not here.  This is what I meant by 'the place for that thread is ModDisc."  If you make it (the thread), they will post.

[Shiori]

If your garden is overgrown with weeds, your problem is not that you're not allowed to use a flamethrower to clear it.

[Anyanka Funk]

The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.

And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.

This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.

That time has passed.

Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.

Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.

I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.

Occupy Backstage.

MA is best Pony.

As one of those people who was very active in those discussions in the smoke-filled room Scagga so generously provided us all to shape our ideas into the forum that Silver first suggested and I'd wanted so badly to put up (but lacked wide enough support because I'm an anti-social prick)...  I can't disagree with much of what you say, Vince.  But you see, here's the thing, as I see it:

We didn't want to build a new forum where the ruling clique, or even perception of a ruling clique, got away with shitposting and everyone else got moderated and banned.  We wanted any faction to feel free and welcome to post and discuss topics.  We wanted fresh discussion.  We wanted more opportunity/availability for cross-factional collaboration.  We wanted actual tangible OOC/IC divide across the board (lol).  We wanted so bloody much.  And most of it, we got.  Some of it, we still have.  But at the end of the day, there are a lot of whiny, soft-hearted, thin-skinned, emotionally unstable people in this overall community and the introduction of constructive criticism, if not handled carefully (moreso with some than with others), generates problems.

Case in point, there was recently some person whose name I don't feel worth remembering who posted this controversial 'blooder' themed thing which you, Vince, ripped the fuck apart.  Early in this person's thread, they were all "Tear it up, I'm ready! "  When they didn't find that replies were going mostly in favor, they edited the OP and deleted their forum account.  Now just the posts under greyname remain.  (which is why I don't feel it's worth remembering the name)

Yeah, you raised great points as to why that person was DIW.  Personally, though, I'd've just left it at "This is contrary to PF on just about all levels and it's a silly trope I'm tired of seeing."  IF I posted about it at all.

Yes, you'll get moderated.  Yes, you'll get various incremental bans.  You might even work your way to a p.ban.  Whatever, it's internet spaceships.  At the end of the day, I think the prevailing opinion remains that, if we don't keep it as tight/draconian/subjective/whatever as we do on certain things, we're gonne be right back where we were at the start of 2010.  With a dead forum largely inhabited by one clique and a bunch of try-hards opposing them until some new forum rises up, old bittervets check it out, post a few times and vanish, it gets a Community Spotlight from CCP and rolls on strong for a couple of years and repeats the cycle.

TL;DR: motherfuckers need to be less emo about receiving fair criticism, then people like Vince won't need to drop the mic and OcCuPpY BaCkStAgE or do anything else e-edgy.

If someone wants to start a serious discussion about revisiting the Rules & FAQ, their original intentions and their application over the last 4 years, Moderation Discussion is the place to start the thread.

I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.

Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.

Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. 

[Havohej]

I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.

Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.

Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. 

Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general.  Everyone's going to know who you are, so trying to retcon usually gets folks in trouble.  That said, good luck with that whole thing.  I hope you avoid the things Vince 'gently steered you away from' with his post(s).

As to Vince being a mod...  gods help us.