Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Katrina Oniseki on 04 Jul 2014, 12:10
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There are 5431 star systems in New Eden.
There are 38833 reasonably habitable planets, including 7200 Temperate and 19715 Barren.
There are at least 100,000,000,000,000 people in New Eden.
Consider the vastness of those numbers when you try to tell somebody else they are roleplaying their character incorrectly. There's a reason "urdoinitrong" is not allowed on this forum. It doesn't matter if you're a Quafe obsessed blonde. It doesn't matter if you're a jingoistic Provist, or a womanizing Amarr preacher, or a synthetic bio-android, or a rogue drone, or a blood sucking baby eating vampire lesbian.
In a world as vast as New Eden, neither you nor I have any right to tell somebody their character is implausible. The moment you do, you disregard the concept of science fiction. You discard suspension of disbelief. You close your mind off to any possibility but what CCP has the (limited) time to write, or what you have the (limited) capability to imagine.
I have seen annoying players and characters. I've seen attention whores (like myself), and trolls. I've seen cliche tropes, too-edgy hipsters, and other sorts of eye-rolling RP. No matter what I think of it, it is beyond ignorant for me to declare that whatever character or group I dislike is not possible in EVE.
It's a player built world. So unless you plan to systematically write out what's going on with all hundreds trillion of those New Eden Denizens, take a happy step back and let your fellow players build their own little corner of it with you.
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some might say that's condoning a blizzard of special snowflakes, Katrina, but:
for characters which are a bit out-there, like bio-androids, then with the numbers given in eve:source, for populations, then, when you look at the megacorporation stations, and how many people probably live or purchase services from those stations, then I think it's fairly reasonable, for there to be a lot of one-off special projects.
Trillions of people in the general population. Billions of scientists, and thus, thousands, or tens of thousands, or more, of mad scientists hell-bent on their research, disregarding societal norms and conventional morality.
as long as there's some kind of explanation for what happens if the character is podded, then there's a lot of scope for a substantial array of strange people.
People seem a lot more jaded and bitter than they used to be :S
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Maybe they are jaded because they are fed up becoming a minority in a flurry of special snowflakes.
There are 5431 star systems in New Eden.
There are 38833 reasonably habitable planets, including 7200 Temperate and 19715 Barren.
There are at least 100,000,000,000,000 people in New Eden.
Consider the vastness of those numbers when you try to tell somebody else they are roleplaying their character incorrectly. There's a reason "urdoinitrong" is not allowed on this forum. It doesn't matter if you're a Quafe obsessed blonde. It doesn't matter if you're a jingoistic Provist, or a womanizing Amarr preacher, or a synthetic bio-android, or a rogue drone, or a blood sucking baby eating vampire lesbian.
In a world as vast as New Eden, neither you nor I have any right to tell somebody their character is implausible. The moment you do, you disregard the concept of science fiction. You discard suspension of disbelief. You close your mind off to any possibility but what CCP has the (limited) time to write, or what you have the (limited) capability to imagine.
I have seen annoying players and characters. I've seen attention whores (like myself), and trolls. I've seen cliche tropes, too-edgy hipsters, and other sorts of eye-rolling RP. No matter what I think of it, it is beyond ignorant for me to declare that whatever character or group I dislike is not possible in EVE.
It's a player built world. So unless you plan to systematically write out what's going on with all hundreds trillion of those New Eden Denizens, take a happy step back and let your fellow players build their own little corner of it with you.
You are telling people acting that way that they are doing it wrong doing too :smartassery: 8)
Well nah, I kinda agree. But I can understand that for some people it's an eternal war consisting in systematically burning what they see as weed, in a dog eat dog pragmatic world. I know some do.
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You're right. But given an inbred population of 5 in the roleplaying community, this leads to this effect:
(http://i.imgur.com/BDk2Xnq.gif%3F1)
(http://0.media.dorkly.cvcdn.com/80/81/1f8a008292a36964eba14b617cbbdfed.gif)
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There are two different things you're talking about here, and they have to be dealt with seperately.
OOC urdoinitwrong
For the most part, I agree (hell, I recently saw someone literally try to tell another player - not character - that it was forbidden by IC rules to disagree with them).
On the other hand, you have people who introduce concepts which are so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that there is no feasible way to interact with them except this, and then insist that their ideas are as legitimate as anyone else and we have to accept them at face value. No, we don't, and we shouldn't.
IC
Is this even a problem? If you don't like something, don't react to it - or if you prefer, react accordingly. Be dismissive, have your characters treat them like madmen, or just plain out ignore them. They may choose to ignore your reaction, or present their own proof (which you can then rebut).
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On the other hand, you have people who introduce concepts which are so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that there is no feasible way to interact with them except this, and then insist that their ideas are as legitimate as anyone else and we have to accept them at face value. No, we don't, and we shouldn't.
Can you give me an actual example of a character so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that they could not be reconciled with the setting? Think carefully.
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On the other hand, you have people who introduce concepts which are so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that there is no feasible way to interact with them except this, and then insist that their ideas are as legitimate as anyone else and we have to accept them at face value. No, we don't, and we shouldn't.
Can you give me an actual example of a character so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that they could not be reconciled with the setting? Think carefully.
There was, years ago, someone who tried to start a full on BSG RP corp. Cylons etc. That's probably the closest I've seen. And yes, that could theoretically be reconciled, but this was before Rogue Drones, even, so it would be rather tough.
Also, this is not a new issue! I started a rant (and ended up offering up a bunch of money) on a very similar subject about 4 years ago: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=345.0 after I found myself taking the position - over and over - that space is really big, and Eve is big enough to contain a great many things.
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On the other hand, you have people who introduce concepts which are so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that there is no feasible way to interact with them except this, and then insist that their ideas are as legitimate as anyone else and we have to accept them at face value. No, we don't, and we shouldn't.
Can you give me an actual example of a character so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that they could not be reconciled with the setting? Think carefully.
I remember one in my early days, the Sol Defense Force. A corp RP'ing that they had a stable connection to earth, and so believed they had the right to 'godmod' because earth technology > EVE tech. Also, all comments on *Earth doesn't exists* were rebuked with *travel with us through the EvE gate that only we can use*
Dunno if they were active in the summit, but they were very active around the Caldari starter systems when I started out (2008)
However, to your main point, I do agree for the most part, the vast expanse of EVE allows for alot of weird characters to exist lore-wise, many of those might not be what we like, but offer them a chance and perhaps they make something out of it when they learn & progress in RP.
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Well, the answer both with them and with my Cylon example is pretty much the same: Space madness.
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I have no issue with people's original characters (assuming they are original). What tends to bug me is when they are done over and over again by different people, and they always make the same mistakes.
By all means, play as a baby eating space vampire lesbian. Just make it good. Make it believable.
Please don't make it laughable, unless that is your intent from the start. And even then, do it right.
Haha, I know that's hypocritical considering the thread title. But I can't fully express how much I mean this. Characters who are just... bad? They annoy me, and put me off wanting any IC interaction with them. A character can "fit" with the setting of Eve, but I find it much more important that a character be reconcilable with the style of Eve.
Rarr grimdark and all that. I don't know. I'm not good at putting my thoughts into writing.
I'm all for jokes and humor, originality and fun things. But if you're going to expect to be taken seriously, please create a character that can be. At least most of the time.
Playing another person is weird. (http://i.imgur.com/pK0ShMk.jpg) Kala hates badly played characters more than I do.
It's also 03:10am and my thoughts aren't entirely coherent. Heh.
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I would say that you have two options in that situation, Kala:
1) Use the block function. Certainly this is the simplest solution, and I've used it here and there myself
2) Try and give them some pointers. Sometimes people are new to the game, or to RP, or to fiction creation. Of course, it takes quite a bit of tact, but most people, if you get in touch privately and offer constructive observations, are open to advice. Of course, there are always going to be some people who aren't, in which case, see option 1. However, I've seen a number of characters who would have been largely unworkable due to their - for lack of a better word - style who managed to turn it around or avoid situations that would have made their play experience unfun. This goes for content too - sometimes someone is choosing to ignore common wisdom about a faction (and, as covered earlier, this is fine) but sometimes they just don't know. If you tell them, and they still choose to go their own way, that's okay. But at the very least they will have more context for where their character fits in.
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I would say that you have two options in that situation, Kala:
1) Use the block function. Certainly this is the simplest solution, and I've used it here and there myself.
What bugs me is that I have done this not for OOC reasons, but because there are personalities (read: playstyles) that Nis just wants nothing to do with. I need a feature to make blocks specific to the channel, because I may actually want to interact with a player somewhere OOC even if my character can't abide their character's behavior.
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I've never found anyone in Eve that I'd say RP wrong, but rather I've met many characters and players that I'd say I find terribly stupid, obnoxious, and laughable either through their behaviour or their opinions.
I don't think this is a bad thing, but rather adds a degree of realism for me because a great deal of human behaviour in general I'd consider terribly stupid, obnoxious, and laughable.
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Honestly, this boils down to a larger issue that we see everywhere. It's cultural education and appreciation, as well as personal preferences.
It's exactly the same thing between me watching some obscure hipster shit korean movie telling to someone that their taste sucks hard because they are enjoying the hell out of Twilight 5.
Think about that.
(http://image.noelshack.com/fichiers/2014/27/1404157865-tumblr-n15vk4bytj1qelb42o1-500.gif)
On the other hand, you have people who introduce concepts which are so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that there is no feasible way to interact with them except this, and then insist that their ideas are as legitimate as anyone else and we have to accept them at face value. No, we don't, and we shouldn't.
Can you give me an actual example of a character so wildly out of sync with the EVE universe that they could not be reconciled with the setting? Think carefully.
I remember one in my early days, the Sol Defense Force. A corp RP'ing that they had a stable connection to earth, and so believed they had the right to 'godmod' because earth technology > EVE tech. Also, all comments on *Earth doesn't exists* were rebuked with *travel with us through the EvE gate that only we can use*
Dunno if they were active in the summit, but they were very active around the Caldari starter systems when I started out (2008)
However, to your main point, I do agree for the most part, the vast expanse of EVE allows for alot of weird characters to exist lore-wise, many of those might not be what we like, but offer them a chance and perhaps they make something out of it when they learn & progress in RP.
Ah yes, there was a fad in these days with RPers being obsessed with Earth related stuff. Thankfully I have not seen it since eons.
I would say that you have two options in that situation, Kala:
1) Use the block function. Certainly this is the simplest solution, and I've used it here and there myself
2) Try and give them some pointers. Sometimes people are new to the game, or to RP, or to fiction creation. Of course, it takes quite a bit of tact, but most people, if you get in touch privately and offer constructive observations, are open to advice. Of course, there are always going to be some people who aren't, in which case, see option 1. However, I've seen a number of characters who would have been largely unworkable due to their - for lack of a better word - style who managed to turn it around or avoid situations that would have made their play experience unfun. This goes for content too - sometimes someone is choosing to ignore common wisdom about a faction (and, as covered earlier, this is fine) but sometimes they just don't know. If you tell them, and they still choose to go their own way, that's okay. But at the very least they will have more context for where their character fits in.
I have always been open to help people, but actually never bothered to make it known after what I saw on Eve, but it even started on SWG for the most part. At first I wanted to try giving pointers and reaching players to help, but when you see how some react (and there is a lot of them), as seen on those very forums, besides a few of them these conversations with that kind of people tend to end like that
(http://chbox.fr/Content/Images/Emotions/WatchDrive.gif)
However, some bear fruit, like what happened between players and Nauplius, for example. Well, kudos for those that can bear with all the negative reactions to find the few good ones in the process...
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To answer some of the replies while I'm here without any more quoting, since nobody else has the testicular fortitude to call me a little bitch. Love you Vince. :cube:
I fully get that there are always some hard limits to what can happen in New Eden. Of course there are things like direct crossovers (Jedi DUST Bunny, Hogwarts Capsuleer, Joffrey Baratheon in space) that are an automatic disqualifier. There are some things that CCP has explicitly said cannot and do not happen, because not even the NPCs can do it - like crossing the EVE Gate, which isn't even a gate anymore. There are things that are against the basic 'rules' of roleplay, like godmodding other characters.
But then people seem to confuse that sort of category with things that can plausibly happen. Capsuleers who don't use a crew. People who fly using a standard bridge, instead of a capsule. People who have invented or trained some form of telekinesis. Things that can be reasoned into plausibility, even if they aren't believable IC or OOC.
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Well to me those examples either enter in the disqualifier category, or either in the godmodding category.
If said capsuleer is commanding on bridge, then either he is doing nothing in space or just at 10% of his ship abilities or whatev (if capsule compatible ships are even usable in conventional mode at all ?), or he is being a liar and actually in pod like any capsuleer. If he doesn't use a crew on a frigate, sure, but above ? Is he running back and forth between ship stations or what ?
Both of those actions mean either some form of impossibility (piloting one's battleship with no crew or on bridge and still manage to retain all ship abilities in space), or some form of godmodding if you still force people to believe you (Accept that I invented such an awesome technology that everybody would hugely benefit from that allows me to command on bridge and without any crew without any loss of abilities !!1!1! And fuck yeah accept my telekinesis RP that has no tangible basis in PF damnit !!11!1 ).
Well at least ICly, they can be called liars. It usually go down very quickly when it comes (inevitably after) to OOC drama.
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Regardless of whether we apply the "it's a big cluster" principle or not, it is still entirely possible to genuinely be "doing it wrong" in RP. The issue is how you define the scope of the word 'it'.
For example, given the context of the thread: it is entirely possible for a player to be "doing it wrong" when it comes to portraying their character in order to solicit interaction from other characters - this has nothing to do with the "it's a big cluster" concept in the slightest. There are right and wrong ways of getting other characters to interact with yours. The details of exactly what is right and what is wrong may differ from player to player or even character to character but there are a number of things that are widely shared among players.
There are things you can do that will determine whether you get more or less interaction from others, and what the quality of that interaction is. However, what you do is not the responsibility of anyone but yourself. If you cannot portray your character in a fashion that makes people want to interact with it for better or for worse that is your own fucking problem. As has been pointed out in a few threads recently, there are a number of poorly-received characters that would be much better received if their players changed their approach to interacting with others, both IC and OOC, rather than going about it in the way that does not encourage meaningful interaction and subsequently pissing and moaning about the responses they get.
As I put it elsewhere, the onus isn't on everyone else to just lovingly accept the platter of shit that you dropped on the table in front of them with a loud clatter and a snarl. If you're going to drop something like that in front of someone, at least be polite about it if you expect them to reciprocate. Or, more politely, there's absolutely nothing wrong with saying "if you're looking for X response, you're doing it wrong by taking Y action."
While I was typing, it seems Lyn more or less nailed my response regarding what can genuinely be called "doing it wrong" as far as RP content itself goes. It's worth noting, though, that the drama does not always originate with the people going "hey, you can't do that." Often enough, it's the person disrespecting the lore that throws the "you can't tell me what to do!" shitfit.
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We also should remember the high correlation rates between special RP snowflakes and high levels of ooc/ic interpersonal difficulties.
In my experience the people that are the most special snowflake / my character is the most specialist out of the box thing I can possibly think of, etc, are the ooc people who are the absolute worst to deal with, who are terrible at receiving the slightest bit of criticism, do not play well with others, and bring more derp to the yard than is worth dealing with.
Every once and a while these people are just new, don't know the PF, and turn out to be great RPers down the road. That is a rarity.
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We also should remember the high correlation rates between special RP snowflakes and high levels of ooc/ic interpersonal difficulties.
In my experience the people that are the most special snowflake / my character is the most specialist out of the box thing I can possibly think of, etc, are the ooc people who are the absolute worst to deal with, who are terrible at receiving the slightest bit of criticism, do not play well with others, and bring more derp to the yard than is worth dealing with.
Every once and a while these people are just new, don't know the PF, and turn out to be great RPers down the road. That is a rarity.
QFT :|
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We also should remember the high correlation rates between special RP snowflakes and high levels of ooc/ic interpersonal difficulties.
In my experience the people that are the most special snowflake / my character is the most specialist out of the box thing I can possibly think of, etc, are the ooc people who are the absolute worst to deal with, who are terrible at receiving the slightest bit of criticism, do not play well with others, and bring more derp to the yard than is worth dealing with.
Every once and a while these people are just new, don't know the PF, and turn out to be great RPers down the road. That is a rarity.
QFT :|
You disagree? Why so?
*EDIT*
I always get that qft mixed up with 'quit fucking talking' thought you were zinging me :P
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Pretty much agree with Silas. You can RP whatever you want. But I don't have to talk to you or your character.
For me, the best RP (best being defined as "that which I enjoy most") has come from people not trying to be special snowflakes, but trying to compose a story (such as Ciarente), create an image (as with PYRE and LDIS), or advocate for a cause (TSF, EM, PIE, etc).
The stuff I haven't enjoyed so much is the intensely "look how speshul an' wonderful I iz!" crap. If someone decides that their character doesn't need a pod, is part rogue drone and part dragon, or comes from old Earth with the teachings of universal peace that we all must learn...well, I'm not interested. Of course, if your character just thinks that, well, that's interesting. After all, I play a Caldari loyalist who dabbled with Sansha and nearly lobotomized his clone by stealing and jumping into another character's body. We're capsuleers, a little insanity is to be expected.
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Well to me those examples either enter in the disqualifier category, or either in the godmodding category.
If said capsuleer is commanding on bridge, then either he is doing nothing in space or just at 10% of his ship abilities or whatev (if capsule compatible ships are even usable in conventional mode at all ?), or he is being a liar and actually in pod like any capsuleer. If he doesn't use a crew on a frigate, sure, but above ? Is he running back and forth between ship stations or what ?
Both of those actions mean either some form of impossibility (piloting one's battleship with no crew or on bridge and still manage to retain all ship abilities in space), or some form of godmodding if you still force people to believe you (Accept that I invented such an awesome technology that everybody would hugely benefit from that allows me to command on bridge and without any crew without any loss of abilities !!1!1! And fuck yeah accept my telekinesis RP that has no tangible basis in PF damnit !!11!1 ).
Well at least ICly, they can be called liars. It usually go down very quickly when it comes (inevitably after) to OOC drama.
Added bold for emphasis. That's the thing, right there. They can't force anyone else to believe them. RP can and should be pretty self-correcting. As you mention, it might mean OOC drama, but that isn't the same as other people having to play along IC. And drama, for the most part, takes two - if they are terribly insistent on everyone going along with something everyone doesn't feel like going along with, everyone has a block button.
There is no requirement that people interact with people who they don't want to interact with. There is nothing wrong with deciding someone is not a good use of your RP time. The often quite pervasive feeling that the onus is on you to accommodate someone else's RP is actually probably harmful.
Of course, if they are otherwise someone you enjoy RPing with, you might ignore a few idiosyncrasies, and that isn't to say that anyone with a few wrinkles should be written off. There are some finer points of PF etc that plenty of people disagree on vehemently, but they manage to make it work mostly (See: Soft Clones).
Ultimately, RP is a collaborative experience, though, and collaborative doesn't mean 'I write my own rules and you better go by them or I'm throwing the toys out of the crib'. If that's the situation, by all means, leave them to it and find someone more useful to spend your time on. This is even the case when we aren't talking about someone doing it wrong in the sense of some (to your perspective) gross violation of PF or normal RP standards. It would apply equally with simple (if serious) personality conflict or whatever else.
There is no requirement to try and give people some useful advice if they don't seem to be interfacing well with the community, either, of course. However, I myself do generally try that route first. If they turn out to be open to other perspectives, and willing to at least listen to how other people might view things, that's a win, and if not it doesn't take so much of my time that I would generally consider it any kind of waste.
Edit: And the lovely thing about all of that is, you can do it without going through all the trouble of waging a campaign of 'but they are doing it wrong' everywhere. People can come to their own conclusions, and most times those conclusions are likely to be similar to your own. PEople that disagree with you, well, they will be happy enough RPing with the person you are not happy RPing with, and that isn't your problem.
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Tbh theres plenty of ways of doing it wrong and calling people out on it both IC and OCC is perfectly fine. Dont like it? Then don't come up with retarded ideas. :P
But then people seem to confuse that sort of category with things that can plausibly happen.
People who fly using a standard bridge, instead of a capsule.
Hearing people claim this always makes me facepalm. It possible from a technical point of view? Sure. At the cost of perma-death upon ship destruction or skill & information loss upon death due to reactivating an old clone.
Claiming to control your ship from a bridge while still enjoying all the luxuries capsules offer breaks the plausibility though so its perfectly fine to call someone a liar IC. If they claim to be using a real bridge and actually impose the limitations this would come with on themselves then its fine.
If someone tries to shape reality to suit their special snowflake interests by cherry picking the options they like and ignoring any consequences this would have on their character then their entire setup is bullshit from the ground up because plausibility goes both ways.
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Tbh theres plenty of ways of doing it wrong and calling people out on it both IC and OCC is perfectly fine. Dont like it? Then don't come up with retarded ideas. :P
But then people seem to confuse that sort of category with things that can plausibly happen.
People who fly using a standard bridge, instead of a capsule.
Hearing people claim this always makes me facepalm. It possible from a technical point of view? Sure. At the cost of perma-death upon ship destruction or skill & information loss upon death due to reactivating an old clone.
Claiming to control your ship from a bridge while still enjoying all the luxuries capsules offer breaks the plausibility though so its perfectly fine to call someone a liar IC. If they claim to be using a real bridge and actually impose the limitations this would come with on themselves then its fine.
If someone tries to shape reality to suit their special snowflake interests by cherry picking the options they like and ignoring any consequences this would have on their character then their entire setup is bullshit from the ground up because plausibility goes both ways.
I suppose it is all about execution.
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There's special and then there's special needs, after all.
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I'm not sure exactly how much this is relevant but:
I've noticed something, happens more with some groups than others, but what it is, is this:
There's a character, who behaves in a particular way, and is associated in some way with one of the main RP factions. Other people use that character, as a tool, to berate and criticise people who are also associated with that RP faction.
This puts those people into an uncomfortable position IC and OOC - that is, they are often compelled, when interacting in a public setting, to defend not just their own position, but the position of someone else, with whom they may have only a slight connection.
Example: Diana Kim, the Caldari extremist.
Some players, use Diana Kim as a tool, to berate and criticise other Caldari players. If the Caldari players don't justify Diana Kim's actions, they get more criticism, for not being "true Caldari", much of the criticism coming from non-Caldari. If they do justify Diana Kim's actions, they get criticised for it, for a lot of the same reasons.
And if they have no interest in justifying or condemning Diana Kim who they might not have interacted with - maybe they're from different time zones - then again, they get criticised.
This criticism often lands more heavily on certain players than others, and I suspect it's because of some kind of grudge against those players.
Another recent example would be Anyanka Funk and Nauplius, both Sani Sabik. They're pretty extreme as far as I can tell.
There are a segment of the eve "rp community", who will use those two characters, as a tool, to force other Sani Sabik players to RP a certain way. "But what about Nauplius?" would be asked, and if those Sani Sabik players condemn Nauplius, then "well, looks to me like your religion is pretty divided, hurdurr" would be the response. If they justify Nauplius, then "well, looks to me like your religion is pretty divided, hurdurr" is also the response. If they don't want to RP about Nauplius, and want to RP their own thing, well that's just tough, they should have thought about that before being Sani Sabik.
It's all a bit petty and disappointing really.
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You mean the common issue of strawmen everywhere ? I never really found them so hard to deal with, since strawmen are everywhere. If someone calls someone else out basing themselves on strawmen like that, just call them out of using stupid strawmen arguments and bullshit logic (aka making generalities out of single examples) if you feel diplomatic and rational, or just point at their own strawmen of their own faction (which should also exist since strawmen are everywhere). Or point at them as strawmen themselves, which they often tend to be too. vOv
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I'm with Lyn in theory.
Unfortunately with RPers being such a small pool of players to begin with, you might only have a handful of players for some of the factions, and if 30 or 40% of your faction's RPers are behaving like idiots, it will give you some public relations headaches :P
Every faction has to constantly deal with this. From Amerr derp derp masochist in public slaver abuse to Sabik space lesbian vampire derpery to the over the top caldari space fascists .
Then again, this does represent real life, too :( For all of the reasonable adherents to any political party or religion or ideology, there's always the one dude who is in your group who has to yell the loudest about the worst possible things and give you a bad name.
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Or the one infiltrated of paid by the opposite party to make you look bad...
Owait... Like with strawman alts.
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I'm of the opinion that if you want quality RP then you have to at least be willing to put some degree of effort into creating content. Sure, there's probably going to be a lot of cliche and boring characters that say cliche and boring things for me. However, I think seeking to put content out that's qualitatively better than what such people write is much better solution to such players and characters than complaining about it -- even if people will continue being cliche and boring with their character concepts and executions -- because bitter whining is just as bad for me as reading Diana Kim, Nauplius or Anyanka.
Those who recognize RP is a collaborative effort I'd say are correct but to have really good RP I think needs a further recognition that some of the best works of human philosophy, literature, science etc., was due to the simple fact that you'd have thinkers in those fields all in the same social circles and sharing their ideas with each other in private settings whether it was on the left bank in Paris or in the drawing rooms of London.
While I think inclusiveness is fine, it's also those RP channels such as OOC, Summit, IGS and the like that I've found most often drown out the voices of real quality and intelligence with sheer, overwhelming, mediocrity. Thinking on it recently, I've come to the conclusion that if I want quality RP in the future then I probably have no other option than to create private channels to act like those informal networks of salons, drawing rooms, and cafes with like-minded people who share similar interests in RP discussion and interaction.
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You are not the first person to think of that. The trick, of course, it you have to sometimes venture into places like the Summit to get suitable new members for the exclusive RP clubs. ;)
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I think there's a clear-cut difference between being unable to say a character is possible / can act a certain way, and being clearly able to tell that the character in question breaks lore hard. If you wanted to play something outrageous like one Ni-Kunni twin who was separated at birth from his/her other Ni-Kunni twin who was raised by Gallente/Minmatar parents while the other was raised by blah blah blah child actor, movie star, stupid things like that? Fine, fine. If you can make it work, not overdo it, things of that nature, I'd actually like to interact with someone as outrageous as that.
It's already been said, and I don't like just bandwagoning, but I agree with the idea that some stuff is just... too wrong. EVE Gate travel, Earth? Let's not. Super mind-melting hyper lasers out of my eyes? Nah.
Creating new content as V said is important to furthering new plots of RP and to keep things moving on along. When someone or something just sits there, nothing interesting or found out, we get the Summit-fests where everyone's just fiddling around and asking about the weather, then suddenly it's all about slaying Gallenteans.
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The EVE IP is far and wide and covers vast, vast differences in character and plot.
It takes little effort to work within that hugely wide framework and try and create something interesting between people.
I think that's why some of these people get such a negative reaction from other RPers because it's like
"Hey, you've got this vast, interesting sci-fi playground to work with, and instead you want.... laser eyes and telepathy with space cats from Earth, got it....."
It reminds me of imaginary playground games as a child, 90% of the group plays together just fine, and there's always ONE kid who has to be special 'IM THE SUPER PERSON IM INVINCIBLE AND I SHOOT YOU ALL"
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...laser eyes and telepathy with space cats from Earth, got it...
Please don't tell me there are Kilrathi corps in EVE...
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...laser eyes and telepathy with space cats from Earth, got it...
Please don't tell me there are Kilrathi corps in EVE...
...cause that would mean you're not the first with that idea and it might be copyrighted, so that I can't start it! :3
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HEH.
If you want some great B-movie space pulp, read 'end run' and 'fleet action' in the wing commander verse. Super good :P
http://www.amazon.com/End-Wing-Commander-William-Forstchen/dp/067172200X
http://www.amazon.com/Fleet-Action-Commander-William-Forstchen/dp/0671722115/ref=pd_sim_b_2?ie=UTF8&refRID=0YM3B95HBT39AE3GQN48
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On the subject of 'commanding from the bridge' ...
There is one major roadblock in regards to simply calling people out on it.
Clear Skies.
So many people ended up being introduced to EvE by one pilot J.Rourke and co, that even though it was an abstraction of eve, there are those who have come into the game with the preconception that Clear Skies was an accurate representation.
to the other end, i had been reading some old Anne McCaffery books before i initially started playing, and in my mind, as all we had back then was a portrait and our eggs, i was convinced that capsuleers were much like the 'brains' that ran the larger ships in her world....
Permanently sealed into those pods... ofc, i was wrong.
as for the simple 'doinitwrong' thing, i must admit, i've had quite a few people say that about Yuni in the past, most of them were simple enough to dismiss 'look she started in UoC' or 'Drones can't be played' etc... most quietened down a little while after Yuni became more visible.
It was certainly interesting to see how random people reacted to her on IGS.
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Really there's 1 minute of CCP film that fixes the whole trapped in eggs.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NlSRI9uCDo8
People dont even need to be told to "read up" for that anymore.
I didn't read F-all when I started. However I also started as very much a blank slate character other than being 'Khanid' and 'Zealot'. I just took a different route from zealotry than the very pan-generic setting people on fire. Turning the volume up on the song eventually stops making it sound cool and starts not only distorting the audio but making people around you annoyed and deaf. So I went a different route for it that made sense with the Khanid being influenced by Caldari culture.
Of which I'd only seen being RPed and argued over.
A lot of it is absorption, followed by creation. That is "a right path". You could sit and absorb all the lore you like - create nothing and we're all sitting around going "Anyone wanna RP?". We ALL wanna fucking RP or we wouldn't be roleplayers.
We spend more time squabbling about it than doing it.
Edit: to explain - " We ALL wanna fucking RP or we wouldn't be roleplayers." - there are FAR MORE EVE players who've read the Lore in and out up and down and are still glued to thing for "RP reasons" than us. They just don't ROLEPLAY. They don't emote, they don't write backgrounds, etc etc. There's the story, the game, and where they meet, and it is an indicental point of many to be playing besides pretending to actually BE Capsuleer #947269 of New Eden with life breath and a story of its own.
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On the subject of 'commanding from the bridge' ...
There is one major roadblock in regards to simply calling people out on it.
Clear Skies.
So many people ended up being introduced to EvE by one pilot J.Rourke and co, that even though it was an abstraction of eve, there are those who have come into the game with the preconception that Clear Skies was an accurate representation.
to the other end, i had been reading some old Anne McCaffery books before i initially started playing, and in my mind, as all we had back then was a portrait and our eggs, i was convinced that capsuleers were much like the 'brains' that ran the larger ships in her world....
Permanently sealed into those pods... ofc, i was wrong.
as for the simple 'doinitwrong' thing, i must admit, i've had quite a few people say that about Yuni in the past, most of them were simple enough to dismiss 'look she started in UoC' or 'Drones can't be played' etc... most quietened down a little while after Yuni became more visible.
It was certainly interesting to see how random people reacted to her on IGS.
I was always perfectly fine with people doing beginner's mistakes. I was also perfectly fine with people RPing their capsuleer commanding from the bridge like Clear Skies if it's for some kind of parade or something that doesn't ask for much besides standing on a bridge.
I was not comfortable enough with rogue drone RP or whatever exotic and controversial people use to try and interact with them. Same thing for bridge commanders and the likes. I just tended to ignore them for most of the time so that everybody was happy.
When it starts to be more problematic is when you are interacting on the whole IGS, or RP scene, and for example someone comes up with "heh, I invented some revolutionary new technology that everyone in New Eden would surely benefit because it would be quite revolutionary ofc,", and that just because that someone or that group is part of friendly circles and has OOC relations, then it becomes perfectly ok and if you do what you can only do ICly : what is supposed to solve the whole matter everytime by calling the character a liar ICly, then it's all the other characters that suddenly get in league and jump on the bandwagon against you for purely OOC reasons, which basically are "The hell is wrong with you ? Can't you be a little more tolerant with other people's RP ?" where they would have said the exact contrary to the first random newcomer.
That's hypocrisy at its finest.
tldr EDIT : my point is just that people can come with whatever they want that breaks and violates *snip* PF as long as they are famous OOCly. They can do everything that is usually despised from everyone else without a blink. Otherwise they are dead meat for vultures, and their character will die first ICly for the greatest humiliation potential.
Welcome to Eve RP.
[admin]Havo wuz here. Rule 3 is a thing.[/admin]
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Sometimes I'm not sure what's worse, smokescreening specific issues or calling them out.
Of course, we can't 'call anyone out' here.
Either way this just leads to more backroom whispering and fragmentation of what very few active people actually exist, and ne'er the two groups shall meet, save people who have been deemed tolerant/tolerable enough, for one reason or another, to drift from clique to clique.
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Sometimes I'm not sure what's worse, smokescreening specific issues or calling them out.
Of course, we can't 'call anyone out' here.
Either way this just leads to more backroom whispering and fragmentation of what very few active people actually exist, and ne'er the two groups shall meet, save people who have been deemed tolerant/tolerable enough, for one reason or another, to drift from clique to clique.
Re-registered just to agree with this one post. A lot of people ask who's left in RP or why are there so few?
This post, and a lot of other good posts in this thread calling out the clique bullshit and other stupidity, is your fucking answer.
And with that, deleting again. Deuces.
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In my experience, there are too many people going 'LOL E_PEEN 3edgy5me' and other completely unsubtle thing jammed into IC talk shouting down people for the RP to ever advance into the serious, where actual characters and events can take place.
Even if you are liam neeson putting on a performance of hamlet directed by george RR martin and gods gift to writing, you can't put on the show in an empty room. you can't put on the show in a room full of people throwing tomatoes.
so, you have private clubs and the like where that can actually go on, it makes perfect sense to do that. They work perfectly for that but then you run into problems of exclusivity or cliquish behavior or w/e and there is less RP to go around simply because now not everyone is in one place.
throw in the average nerd and his/her personal view and bullshit and you get what we have now.
hard answer is to maybe free up some of the cliques, be less derp, be less prepared to yell about something is being derp be less prepared to yell about someone yelling about derp being derp or people calling out derp as derp or calling out the people who call out...
lol jk, we should all biomass and start over in a new channel and new characters until that is shit too
tl;dr don't be shit
edit: but seriously the solution is probably just don't let it get to you and provide quality RP to other RPers. I bet there will be more than a few who think like you. probably more than the bads who 'ruin it for everyone else'
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People who are "famous" OOC are just as likely to get slapped around if they do something completely retarded and lore-breaking as someone who is not. What makes the difference in how that slapping occurs and where is the history of the supposed "offender" when it comes to their behavior and how they react to criticism or comments, whether they're constructive or not.
Someone who is consistently "3edgy5me" (as Aya put it) or displays symptoms of something best described as "Chronic Special Snowflake Disorder", is likely to get reamed because they're showing they haven't learned from past experiences, doubly so if they also have a history of reacting to feedback with ramming their fingers into their ear canals and screaming "lalalalalalalalalalala I can't heeeeeeeeear youuuuuuuuu" at the top of their lungs.
On the other hand, someone who has a history of generally not showing excessive amounts of attention-seeking or "special snowflake" behavior is more likely to get a gentle "hey, hold up a sec, that doesn't work". Same goes for someone who tends to respond positively to feedback.
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Of course, we can't 'call anyone out' here.
Oh we can, and I do. I got the Catacombs to prove it. :yar:
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Of course, we can't 'call anyone out' here.
Oh we can, and I do. I got the Catacombs to prove it. :yar:
Right there with you, bro. No really, I am. :s
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rawr
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Of course, we can't 'call anyone out' here.
Oh we can, and I do. I got the Catacombs to prove it. :yar:
(http://i.imgur.com/5M2Qb4o.gif)
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We don't exactly have a rule against calling people out, specifically. It's how it's done that matters as far as the rules go - there's usually a few ways to phrase something that aren't against the rules. It's up to you to figure those ways out and post accordingly.
Of course, if you do it and the post ends up in the Catacombs, you're doing it wrong. :P
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(http://i.imgur.com/OA8XuGZ.png)
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the pf for eve, has capsuleers almost omniscient. This would include access to various "Gal-Net" resources, amongst other things. I.e. the evelopedia, and all the factoids that it contains.
which means, ANY character who asks a question along the lines of "Is it true that in the Gallente Federation, there is a custom to do X ?", is, according to the PF, either trolling, or Doing It Wrong.
If it is a genuine question about cultures and stuff, then, according to the PF, they could just look it up, instantly, because of Capsuleer Omniscience. Therefore, they are Doing It Wrong, because of their ignorance of their own omniscience.
So then, it must be that they are Trolling, in an attempt to have other characters say something stupid, which can then be Instantly Called Out, because of Omniscience, and/or revealing other characters own ignorance of their own omniscience.
So, according to pf, then worldbuilding is Doing It Wrong, as capsuleers can instantly look it up, and see that nothing of the sort exists. Some worldbuilding is accepted by the players though, which means that the players are, simply doing it wrong. Everyone that accepts anything that another player says, is doing it wrong.
Kaztropol doesn't exist, the Tyrathlion estates don't exist, Auever Beach doesn't exist, Diana Kim's Secret Forbidden Gallente Pleasure Palace certainly doesn't exist, and so on and so on.
Everyone Is Wrong About Everything.
Lolrp.
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the pf for eve, has capsuleers almost omniscient. This would include access to various "Gal-Net" resources, amongst other things. I.e. the evelopedia, and all the factoids that it contains.
which means, ANY character who asks a question along the lines of "Is it true that in the Gallente Federation, there is a custom to do X ?", is, according to the PF, either trolling, or Doing It Wrong.
If it is a genuine question about cultures and stuff, then, according to the PF, they could just look it up, instantly, because of Capsuleer Omniscience. Therefore, they are Doing It Wrong, because of their ignorance of their own omniscience.
No more than someone doing this IRL considering our access to things like Wikipedia. That's not "trolling" or "doing it wrong", it's "willful ignorance" and/or "failure to use available information resources", both of which are done by people all the time despite easy access to that information.
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No more than someone doing this IRL considering our access to things like Wikipedia. That's not "trolling" or "doing it wrong", it's "willful ignorance" and/or "failure to use available information resources", both of which are done by people all the time despite easy access to that information.
maybe, but we're people irl, not eidetic memoried cyborgs with inbuilt intertube implants.
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No more than someone doing this IRL considering our access to things like Wikipedia. That's not "trolling" or "doing it wrong", it's "willful ignorance" and/or "failure to use available information resources", both of which are done by people all the time despite easy access to that information.
maybe, but we're people irl, not eidetic memoried cyborgs with inbuilt intertube implants.
not if I'm piloting my capital ship on the bridge with a joy stick #doingitright ;)
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Ah, the rare and beautiful Nyx wingover.
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Prime Example of 'Doing it Wrong':
(https://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/images/thumb/a/ab/Malkalen_Catastrophe2.jpg/800px-Malkalen_Catastrophe2.jpg)
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Put more directly, what Lou is trying to say is that if all the Evelopedia pages are taken IC, then it presents some issues because it embodies three things which no RL encyclopedia or information source can claim:
- Universal access among the capsuleer class, so that anyone who is a capsuleer (i.e., anyone who is a player) can or should have knowledge of the information in it.
- An objectively factual writing position, as defined by Word Of CCP; particularly problematic in historical matters as bringing the Evelopedia into IC discussions can instantly dampen "who is right about what happened" conversations.
- Building on the above, the only confirmable IC source of information (when news articles are included). Anything someone decides to worldbuild in RP can potentially be ignored by furiously screaming "BUT ITS NOT IN THE EVELOPEDIA!"
In actuality, I only see these issues come up periodically. They crop up every once in a while, but fortunately most people seem to realize that wielding a hammer of that size is as likely to leave you the "victor" of an RP wasteland. People may use information from the Evelopedia as points in their discussion, but rare is the person who insists that arguing things written in the Evelopedia makes them automatically right.
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CCP never tried when writing articles in the eve wiki, or at least most of the time, to present every fact they tell through different lenses. So it ends up as some kind of unilateral canon that has been more thought like an OOC rulebook for a GM than a true IC encyclopedia... Which is still used as an IC encyclopedia by players nevertheless.
There is already other topics about people linking eve wiki articles again and again to win RP.
That's also why I really love rulebooks that actually present their lore and universe each time through the words and lens of a different character at every page.
____________________
Also, on world building, it's a very fine tool when it doesn't cross suspension of disbelief, scale, or just out of place technological boogaloo.
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In actuality, I only see these issues come up periodically. They crop up every once in a while, but fortunately most people seem to realize that wielding a hammer of that size is as likely to leave you the "victor" of an RP wasteland. People may use information from the Evelopedia as points in their discussion, but rare is the person who insists that arguing things written in the Evelopedia makes them automatically right.
Probably the most salient point from any of those made in either Louella or Esna's posts.
We're fortunate to have a group of RPers who - by and large - actually want to have interaction and are mature enough to know how to seed and build RP opportunities for themselves and others in order to do that. Compared to some RP communities out there there's a noticeable lack of participants trying to 'win RP'.
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Most people on the IGS were constantly trying to win RP when I left. I hold no illusion that this has somehow changed.
Half of the time on debates, you didn't have to wait very long for someone to link an eve wiki article to prove that he was right by the rule of the Canon. That's OOC behavior, and pretty fine OOCly. But definitely not ICly.
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Most people on the IGS were constantly trying to win RP when I left. I hold no illusion that this has somehow changed.
Half of the time on debates, you didn't have to wait very long for someone to link an eve wiki article to prove that he was right by the rule of the Canon. That's OOC behavior, and pretty fine OOCly. But definitely not ICly.
My definition of 'winning RP' was something along the lines of standing 'victorious' over the RP wasteland that Esna described. I see it attempted occasionally, but not usually from the majority of those participating. As I said, there are RP communities out there where it's far more common.
There's very little quoting on the IGS from sources like Evelopedia now, Lyn, if there ever was. It's happened from time to time, certainly, but I don't know that I'd ever categorise it as being done by 'most people' or 'half of the time'.
Even if this were the case, I think that the next point you make - that it's categorically 'OOC behaviour' and 'definitely not IC' - is arguable (and has been argued at length here in the past). I think that Esna's point was that it's a very fine line we walk when using information from the wiki ICly and one we have to be quite conscious of if we're to avoid pitfalls associated with crossing it, particularly during in-character debates. There's a difference between carefully presenting information in the wiki in the context of an IC argument/discussion in order to generate conflict or tension that then drives that discussion forward compared with using it as a blunt instrument to hammer those opposing your character's ideas into submission and subsequently shutting the RP down altogether.
The difference quite possibly stems from the attitudes of the players involved. Perhaps those that are invested in their characters to the point of seeing their successes and failures as extensions of their own personal achievements are perhaps more likely to be the ones that want to 'win RP' and therefore more predisposed to using information in the wiki sledgehammer style rather than as a more collaborative tool?
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Sorry for the exaggeration, it was indeed not that much of course. It was to me mostly the most visible tip of the iceberg, where as you say some people get attached too much to their character and take blows as personal OOC failures where OOC and IC start to blur together, which is a common trait among all these other online communities where it's far worse. But it can also stem from something very specific to the Eve culture, which is basically the culture of the killboard, or what I call as such, which simply consist at winning because actual things are at stake.
What I meant is not that half of the time people quote eve wiki as a sledgehammer, but more that half of the time it was really tangible in the IGS essence that it was not characters speaking anymore, but their players, myself included (that last thing being something which I came to seriously hate). You don't have to be very bright to read and feel that some bad faith and tortured rhetorics and/or grammar was typical of OOC internet/gaming culture.
Well at least it was my experience over the years, and I am not sure that I really appreciated it, even if I still took part for a good time, but everytime I did it felt good when writing something, then mostly bad in the aftermath... :/
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The Evelopedia has enough inconsistencies and re-edits, along with blatantly ooc information that no capsuleer could -possibly- know, that using it as a blanket IC resource can create some extremely awkward facepalming.
Anyway there would be no 'evelopedia' in New Eden. There would be a thousand of them across a thousand worlds and networks, and your fancy robot brain would search them all at the same time, and you would make some decisions based on weighing the various levels of bias. The Matari galct-o-pedia and the Theology Council book of everything are going to have very, very different views and definitions and records of events.
Still such things would would often make conversation terribly boring and useless though, neh? It's another one of those things where it's wiser not to poke the PF too hard in that direction. Use it for background to inform your creativity, never as a weapon unless you need to (politely), show someone that they might have the wrong idea about Fedos being a power source for their supercarrier.
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- Building on the above, the only confirmable IC source of information (when news articles are included). Anything someone decides to worldbuild in RP can potentially be ignored by furiously screaming "BUT ITS NOT IN THE EVELOPEDIA!"
That can be fixed. Players can still edit parts of Evelopedia, just not "PF" components.
If someone is world-building, then creating a wiki article about it and working to given it the proper spin can be a good exercise. This can however easily back firer, but in most instances the worldbuilder is the expert on the idea.
An Evelopedia entry regarding Auever Beach, which adds more detail is a good thing.
Even when omniscience exists, someone/something has to chronicle the knowledge for it to be widely accessible.
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That can be fixed. Players can still edit parts of Evelopedia, just not "PF" components.
If someone is world-building, then creating a wiki article about it and working to given it the proper spin can be a good exercise. This can however easily back firer, but in most instances the worldbuilder is the expert on the idea.
An Evelopedia entry regarding Auever Beach, which adds more detail is a good thing.
Even when omniscience exists, someone/something has to chronicle the knowledge for it to be widely accessible.
I wish this was an easy answer; I actually saw someone recently argue that a page without a "CCP approved canon" tag was irrelevant, even though said page was solely composed of logs from a CCP Dev Actor at a live event.
Still such things would would often make conversation terribly boring and useless though, neh? It's another one of those things where it's wiser not to poke the PF too hard in that direction. Use it for background to inform your creativity, never as a weapon unless you need to (politely), show someone that they might have the wrong idea about Fedos being a power source for their supercarrier.
This is what I see people do the vast majority of the time. Thankfully.
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- Building on the above, the only confirmable IC source of information (when news articles are included). Anything someone decides to worldbuild in RP can potentially be ignored by furiously screaming "BUT ITS NOT IN THE EVELOPEDIA!"
That can be fixed. Players can still edit parts of Evelopedia, just not "PF" components.
If someone is world-building, then creating a wiki article about it and working to given it the proper spin can be a good exercise. This can however easily back firer, but in most instances the worldbuilder is the expert on the idea.
An Evelopedia entry regarding Auever Beach, which adds more detail is a good thing.
Even when omniscience exists, someone/something has to chronicle the knowledge for it to be widely accessible.
Exactly this, combine with the fact that even with super cyberbrains, the capsuleer still has to consciously look something up means that you can easily deal with the omniscience issue. We live in a widely connected world IRL, and people do frequently call up wikipedia articles in debates on various topics. There's no reason for the information not to be there ICly, denying something exists is just silly. Kaztropol probably has its own government websites. Its easily the best choice in the vast majority of cases to not go "you're lying/that's impossible!" and just go along with whatever the other character says. You have no reason to doubt them in regards to what they say the universe is, its a fucking universe, its huge. Telling someone their made up stories aren't true is sort of...just what is the point? None of it is true, New Eden doesn't actually exist. It seems to me to be a lot of poking holes in other people's fun. If something bothers you, don't interact with it. There are people roleplaying totally different universes on tranquillity, and I think that's something we as a community need to fucking get over. There are half a million people in this game, we're not all going to be having remotely similar experiences. The fact that we have as much coherence as a community as we do, in the context of the official lore of the game, really is something fairly impressive. We should focus on not getting our panties twisted when people do things we don't like, and focus on promoting the things we do like.
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I need point out -- there WAS quoting of EVElopedia -- specifically "COULD a Capsuleer KNOW THIS" - ie was it *actually in game information*.
As it involved me, I raged SO FUCKING HARD poor CCP Logibro got dragged into the convo as he had the unfortunate issue of being online and not AFK in channel at the time.
For the record -- I don't see it happening anymore.
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So. Is there a boundary that people shouldn't cross in what they make up? If so where does it lie?
Back in the day EM had a corp join that maintained they where all, in fact, kitsune. As in non-human fox critters. Despite their pilot ID pictures showing regular humans.
On the other hand I gather it is polite to overlook the records of Ammatar loyalist pilots being trained in the Republic, despite it being impossible for a Minmatar pilot to graduate anywhere else with the game as it currently stands.
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I don't think we can definitively say "The line must be drawn here! This far, no further!" without falling back on the ridiculous extremes (alien characters, terrans, close relatives of canon characters, etc.) because each player will have their own way of viewing the EVE universe.
We can issue suggestions on what to avoid, because they tend to promote drama-derp rather than useful RP, but ultimately there will always be someone who will disagree on what is 'right' or 'wrong' to do (silly extreme examples as aside).
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On the other hand I gather it is polite to overlook the records of Ammatar loyalist pilots being trained in the Republic, despite it being impossible for a Minmatar pilot to graduate anywhere else with the game as it currently stands.
That's really one of the biggest thorn in the side I had to deal with, which forced me to find other ways to explain it. Far stretched ways that do not sound really good, but at least can get past the direct issue...
You are born Ammatar. You are not deemed rich or noble enough to get accepted into an Amarr capsule school ? Why would the Republic refuse you ? It has always been stated that Empires were literally craving for capsule compatible people at first. The Republic maybe even more than any other, being the young and threatened state that it is. That it is a feat of pride to for more and more capsuleers for your empire. And then, when your former ammatar capsuleer graduates from your minmatar school, with only minmatar contacts, minmatar skills and ships, will he just leave to get back into the Empire, or Ammatar space ? Perhaps, but the chance is low, imo. He might also not get perfectly well received at home after that too.
Well, that's not perfect, that's the best I could find. But I don't think it breaches PF.
However now that I think of it, I should have created a brainstorming thread to find solutions for that kind of things, and try to find good, believable explanations.
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Back in the day EM had a corp join that maintained they where all, in fact, kitsune. As in non-human fox critters. Despite their pilot ID pictures showing regular humans.
Bad things happen when environmental activists release test animals from illegal deep space laboratories.
Did they learn nothing from the mutated furriers?
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Back in the day EM had a corp join that maintained they where all, in fact, kitsune. As in non-human fox critters. Despite their pilot ID pictures showing regular humans.
According to Japanese folklore, Kitsune are shapeshifters and the way to smoke them out is by siccing dogs or tofu at them. Dogs because dogs can smell them and they fear dogs, and tofu because they are addicted to the foodstuff. Also, they do not go around announcing themselves as Kitsune, so you can argue they are not acting IC regardless.
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I ran into a fairy once.
No, not a Gallente body-mod.
And actual fairly that /emote hovered and flew.
Needless to say, Arista would never admit to maybe wanting to try some of the drugs that capsuleer was on.
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I ran into a fairy once.
No, not a Gallente body-mod.
And actual fairly that /emote hovered and flew.
Needless to say, Arista would never admit to maybe wanting to try some of the drugs that capsuleer was on.
Are you sure Arista wasn't the one on the drugs?
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Yup. I gently tried to correct her IC. Then I flat asked her ((ooc)). And she inissted she was a fairy Queen. Proper with magic and wings. After asentence or two of magic not exsting in eve and being told "I can do what I want', she shook my head (IC) sadly to the person I was with and shrugged, as the poor girl was obviously high as a kite.
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TS-F once had someone apply who seemed okay until she showed us the character she ACTUALLY wanted to apply with. It was Sansha Kuvakei's daughter, and he had set her out into the world to go learn of the way of other countries, over breakfast no less!
Needless to say we did not let her in once she provided us with that backstory.
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Deep down, aren't we all Sansha Kuvakei's daughter?
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...
*checks for nanites*
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We all know that Sansha Kuvakei is in fact my daughter.
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But isn't everyone secretly Istvaan alts?
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But isn't everyone secretly Istvaan alts?
Except me. For some reason, I'm suppose to be Esna's alt. :P
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But isn't everyone secretly Istvaan alts?
You all owe me money then :P A lot of money.
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I'm definitely an Ava alt.
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Eve Source trumps the evelopedia by the way.
And anything ingame.
that's the official CCP word.
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I neeeeeed EVE Source
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I neeeeeed EVE Source
I have it :3
It's pretty awesome.
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Eve Source trumps the evelopedia by the way.
And anything ingame.
that's the official CCP word.
The funny thing is (and I'm still pretty inexperienced with PF, so I may just be a dummy), that Source falls far short of the existing online resources in pretty much every respect save concept art. Furthermore, while a great deal more background and flavor information is available online, I'm not seeing much in the way of direct contravention of Source. It's more like Source is the general overview which encourages you to seek details elsewhere.
Since I'm still fairly ignorant, does anyone have solid examples of how Source has trumped online PF?
Edit: To clarify, I'm not saying I don't believe Source to be the definitive lore guide, just that it is diminutive in comparison to other available PF materials, reading more like an introductory guide (which in itself can be pretty useful).
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It was in a forum thread, i think, people asking about contradictions between evelopedia and source and ingame.
CCP said source takes priority.
"EVE: Source is considered the be all and end all in terms of being canon"
https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=4313319#post4313319
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I'm a proud Silver alt.
I am his Tactlessness and Rage in corporeal form.*
*Otherwise they do not see the light of day
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"EVE: Source is considered to be the ...end all."
It certainly seems to have been the definitive end of storyline development.
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I'm a Dav alt ready to be banned from OOC all over again! :D
Wait, wrong account.
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Shock and horror, people! When you're unable to tell people that they're doing it wrong, people do it wrong.
People complain about the cataclysmic drop in roleplay quality and the plummetting number of active roleplayers, and yet people are still too politically correct to call something quacking, dabbling in a pond and brandishing a large, blunt beak a duck. We all know what the cause of the afforementioned issues is, and yet you have to go to Slaver Filth levels of insanity for people to start agreeing to tell someone they're doing it wrong. Slaver Filth, incidentally, is an excellent example since his aberrent behaviour abruptly stopped after he was told by others that he was doing it wrong.
Vince - who, let's not kid ourselves here, this entire thread is about - gets a lot of his posts censored because he couches a lot of his statements in language and imagery so blunt you could shatter Ayers Rock with it, but the fact is he lays out truths that make people uncomfortable. In fact, he lays out one specific truth that makes this community uncomfortable: that its own overly permissive, criticism-averse atmosphere is choking it to death. This is the Eternal September (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eternal_September) the EVE roleplay community has brought upon itself.
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But then, being too quick to stamp on other people for doing it wrong in your eyes causes problems in its own right. I mean, New Eden is a big place and there seem to be very few absolutes. I agree to an extent, with the aforementioned examples of fairy queen and daughter of Sansha, they should be informed that they're doing it wrong, but at the same time our community needs to give new players a chance to bed their characters in and get them used to operating in the world.
Also, if someone is 'doing it wrong', we should maybe not go wading in with both feet to chastise them for it.
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In fact, he lays out one specific truth that makes this community uncomfortable: that its own overly permissive, criticism-averse atmosphere is choking it to death.
I think that you got it wrong by thinking that the goal of the community is 'criticism-averse'. It's just a question of basic respect.
Emphasis mine on the goal. The goal, and not the people and the community itself. I am not so sure for the latter. Having raised myself quite a lot of doing it wrong finger pointings, and being met with always the same kind of answers ("I can't find any point against yours to make, but I'm a paying customer and do what the hell I want, no matter what it implies for other players"), I can only agree with you on the rest of your point.
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the thread isn't about Vince, that argument was brought up and dismissed on the first page.
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Telling someone when they're doing it wrong is the most essential form of criticism, and the only tool that'll really help them move forward/in a more favorable direction. You can even do this without being insulting. The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.
But why are we even talking about it.Everything is awesome. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7R1nRxcICeE).
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The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.
This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.
That time has passed.
Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.
Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.
I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.
Occupy Backstage.
MA is best Pony.
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The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.
This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo.
<snip>
I think you might have a point there. How would we go about setting up a rules change? And how can we avoid sliding into the other extreme?
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But then, being too quick to stamp on other people for doing it wrong in your eyes causes problems in its own right. I mean, New Eden is a big place and there seem to be very few absolutes. I agree to an extent, with the aforementioned examples of fairy queen and daughter of Sansha, they should be informed that they're doing it wrong, but at the same time our community needs to give new players a chance to bed their characters in and get them used to operating in the world.
Also, if someone is 'doing it wrong', we should maybe not go wading in with both feet to chastise them for it.
Unfortunately, sometimes polite methods do not work. Individuals shouldn't be jumped upon rabidly the first time they make a mistake regarding the lore or the customs of the roleplaying community, but if they persistently show disregard for these things despite polite attempts to correct them, stronger measures should be taken.
I think that you got it wrong by thinking that the goal of the community is 'criticism-averse'. It's just a question of basic respect.
I never intended to imply I believe that the goal of the community itself is a criticism-adverse environment, and I apologise if my statement was ambiguously worded in that regard - what I feel is that regardless of its intention, a criticism-adverse environment is what this community has become.
Emphasis mine on the goal. The goal, and not the people and the community itself. I am not so sure for the latter. Having raised myself quite a lot of doing it wrong finger pointings, and being met with always the same kind of answers ("I can't find any point against yours to make, but I'm a paying customer and do what the hell I want, no matter what it implies for other players"), I can only agree with you on the rest of your point.
Thank you!
Things
<3
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The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.
This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.
That time has passed.
Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.
Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.
I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.
Occupy Backstage.
MA is best Pony.
As one of those people who was very active in those discussions in the smoke-filled room Scagga so generously provided us all to shape our ideas into the forum that Silver first suggested and I'd wanted so badly to put up (but lacked wide enough support because I'm an anti-social prick)... I can't disagree with much of what you say, Vince. But you see, here's the thing, as I see it:
We didn't want to build a new forum where the ruling clique, or even perception of a ruling clique, got away with shitposting and everyone else got moderated and banned. We wanted any faction to feel free and welcome to post and discuss topics. We wanted fresh discussion. We wanted more opportunity/availability for cross-factional collaboration. We wanted actual tangible OOC/IC divide across the board (lol). We wanted so bloody much. And most of it, we got. Some of it, we still have. But at the end of the day, there are a lot of whiny, soft-hearted, thin-skinned, emotionally unstable people in this overall community and the introduction of constructive criticism, if not handled carefully (moreso with some than with others), generates problems.
Case in point, there was recently some person whose name I don't feel worth remembering who posted this controversial 'blooder' themed thing which you, Vince, ripped the fuck apart. Early in this person's thread, they were all "Tear it up, I'm ready! :D" When they didn't find that replies were going mostly in favor, they edited the OP and deleted their forum account. Now just the posts under greyname remain. (which is why I don't feel it's worth remembering the name)
Yeah, you raised great points as to why that person was DIW. Personally, though, I'd've just left it at "This is contrary to PF on just about all levels and it's a silly trope I'm tired of seeing." IF I posted about it at all.
Yes, you'll get moderated. Yes, you'll get various incremental bans. You might even work your way to a p.ban. Whatever, it's internet spaceships. At the end of the day, I think the prevailing opinion remains that, if we don't keep it as tight/draconian/subjective/whatever as we do on certain things, we're gonne be right back where we were at the start of 2010. With a dead forum largely inhabited by one clique and a bunch of try-hards opposing them until some new forum rises up, old bittervets check it out, post a few times and vanish, it gets a Community Spotlight from CCP and rolls on strong for a couple of years and repeats the cycle.
TL;DR: motherfuckers need to be less emo about receiving fair criticism, then people like Vince won't need to drop the mic and OcCuPpY BaCkStAgE or do anything else e-edgy.
If someone wants to start a serious discussion about revisiting the Rules & FAQ, their original intentions and their application over the last 4 years, Moderation Discussion is the place to start the thread.
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Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.
Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.
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Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.
Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.
If I were allowed to ban people who do that, solely on the activity of their ingame account, you have no idea the kind of field day I would have.
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Is that a big enough 'thing'? I mean, it's a very simple matter to add a "Bittervet Shitpoasting Forum" for bitters and inactives who are into that sort of thing, and move offending posts to it the same way we move 'em to the
Katacombs Catacombs.
I'm the first to admit my Eve account is inactive at current, but I haven't posted about anything going on ingame in a good while, except the Ushra'Khan stuff, which I posted positively on - which is to say, I don't put myself in that group of posters. And I think it's obviously I just kinda lurk quietly nowadays for the most part.
EDIT: Actually, don't answer that. At least, not here. This is what I meant by 'the place for that thread is ModDisc." If you make it (the thread), they will post.
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If your garden is overgrown with weeds, your problem is not that you're not allowed to use a flamethrower to clear it.
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The catch-22 is when calling someone out for doing something (subjectively) wrong is already considered insulting.
And this, ladies and gentlemen, I give zero fucks about the rules of this here forum anymore.
This is no longer the forum I helped to create with Scagga and a small group of other people as a counter point to the pure toxicity of Chatsubo. A forum where you could discuss and criticize storylines, roleplay and other things but without descending to personal insults and out of game bickering. For a time this place was just that and it was amazing.
That time has passed.
Now this is the other extreme opposed to chatsubo, nobody is to be criticized so people won't get their feelings hurt, and where even politely saying that someone is doing it wrong is often getting a reprimand in one form or another. That in itself creates another kind of toxicity. Don't get me wrong I bear no ill will towards the moderators. They just enforce the rules, but maybe it's time to change the rules.
Sometimes giving people slap in the face really works. There's been quite a few people who've approached me and with whom I've had polite discussions about how to improve their roleplay experience, guide them to information source or just purely give advice and explain why their course of action is maybe not the best one around - but only after calling them out. However, calling them out nicely or with a vengeance results in the same lame ass whiny bullshit these days.
I will keep breaking the rules with impunity, to the extreme and with purpose until I am banned or until we can reforge the spirit of these forums to what it was when we started them.
Occupy Backstage.
MA is best Pony.
As one of those people who was very active in those discussions in the smoke-filled room Scagga so generously provided us all to shape our ideas into the forum that Silver first suggested and I'd wanted so badly to put up (but lacked wide enough support because I'm an anti-social prick)... I can't disagree with much of what you say, Vince. But you see, here's the thing, as I see it:
We didn't want to build a new forum where the ruling clique, or even perception of a ruling clique, got away with shitposting and everyone else got moderated and banned. We wanted any faction to feel free and welcome to post and discuss topics. We wanted fresh discussion. We wanted more opportunity/availability for cross-factional collaboration. We wanted actual tangible OOC/IC divide across the board (lol). We wanted so bloody much. And most of it, we got. Some of it, we still have. But at the end of the day, there are a lot of whiny, soft-hearted, thin-skinned, emotionally unstable people in this overall community and the introduction of constructive criticism, if not handled carefully (moreso with some than with others), generates problems.
Case in point, there was recently some person whose name I don't feel worth remembering who posted this controversial 'blooder' themed thing which you, Vince, ripped the fuck apart. Early in this person's thread, they were all "Tear it up, I'm ready! :D" When they didn't find that replies were going mostly in favor, they edited the OP and deleted their forum account. Now just the posts under greyname remain. (which is why I don't feel it's worth remembering the name)
Yeah, you raised great points as to why that person was DIW. Personally, though, I'd've just left it at "This is contrary to PF on just about all levels and it's a silly trope I'm tired of seeing." IF I posted about it at all.
Yes, you'll get moderated. Yes, you'll get various incremental bans. You might even work your way to a p.ban. Whatever, it's internet spaceships. At the end of the day, I think the prevailing opinion remains that, if we don't keep it as tight/draconian/subjective/whatever as we do on certain things, we're gonne be right back where we were at the start of 2010. With a dead forum largely inhabited by one clique and a bunch of try-hards opposing them until some new forum rises up, old bittervets check it out, post a few times and vanish, it gets a Community Spotlight from CCP and rolls on strong for a couple of years and repeats the cycle.
TL;DR: motherfuckers need to be less emo about receiving fair criticism, then people like Vince won't need to drop the mic and OcCuPpY BaCkStAgE or do anything else e-edgy.
If someone wants to start a serious discussion about revisiting the Rules & FAQ, their original intentions and their application over the last 4 years, Moderation Discussion is the place to start the thread.
I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.
Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.
Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. :P
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I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.
Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.
Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. :P
Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general. Everyone's going to know who you are, so trying to retcon usually gets folks in trouble. That said, good luck with that whole thing. I hope you avoid the things Vince 'gently steered you away from' with his post(s).
As to Vince being a mod... gods help us.
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If your garden is overgrown with weeds, your problem is not that you're not allowed to use a flamethrower to clear it.
Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.
Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.
I am not sure to whom it is supposed to refer though like Havo I don't think (or hope) that I didn't fall into that category. As I said in my departure post I was definitely not going to take part anymore in discussion about game mechanisms, patchs, extensions and all since i'm not even playing. Or at best, saying positive things about them like that I wished that I could have tried this one or that one.
As for my posts in there for example, they are mostly in the hope to help the community. If the effect is the opposite, then I will apologize and go crawl back into my hole. :/
However maybe are we confusing a bit the fact that the forum is populated by old geezers only precisely due to the problem discussed in that other thread about who is left in RP ? Don't always blame the bittervets, maybe they just became clearly visible because there is just nothing else happening besides.
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When the Empyrean Age novel was released, it fundamentally rewrote what was "doing it right" for many, particularly the Minmatar players.
The Elders were mentioned as being worshipped like gods, and with various powers, including that of making every Minmatar extremely deferent and subservient to an Elder. "Jaffa, kree", as Stargate would say.
This took almost everything that players had interpreted and come up with about Minmatar society and religion, and stamped it into tiny pieces, swept those pieces up into a bag, and then stamped on the bag some more.
The point being, that "doing it right", can be radically redefined at CCP's whim, and has been done several times in the past. So, it is foolish for players to say "This is the right way to rp a thing", based on their interpretation of the portion of pf that they've seen.
And that portion of PF is significant. How many people in the RP community have seen the PF that is in the Blood Raider Cosmos missions ? I wouldn't expect there to be many.
Without knowledge of that PF, people may suggest that someone is "doing it wrong", whereas that person believes they are "doing it right", because of things they've seen in the blood raider cosmos missions.
so that's why Katrina used the word "hubris".
because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intent.
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also, by looking at the "who's online" thing I happened to see that someone was looking at this thread, which illustrates what I just said, about things being changed (or at least appearing to) at CCP's whim:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4054.0
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Well played, now EVERYONE in the who's online is looking at that thread. :P
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because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intents.
I agree, basically, but I fixed that sentence to you. I think it's quite clear that behind EVE PF isn't one intent. Rather it is a couple of intents based on the author(s) writing at the time, which also change and who don't seem to work too closely together nor (usually) take into account all the already existing PF.
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When the Empyrean Age novel was released ... (*snip*)
Actually, I would point to the whole Elder thing as a prime example of the community handling a YDIW situation in a fairly good manner.
On encountering something that was a very apparent case of someone - a CCP employee in this case, but still someone - doinitwrong, we did not singularly spam visceral hatred or just yell NO U WRONG NO U WRONG NO U WRONG repeatedly. Instead, we stuck to our guns and calmly explained why this interpretation (among others in The Empyrean Age) was a very, very bad one, using existing examples from PF to back up our points.
Result? Elders were written back into being merely respected tribal leaders, not pseudo-god things that trigger instant, instinctual groveling for any Matari.
This is really, I think, a prime example of how telling someone that YDIW can work - if done right.
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They were retconned out of their pseudo god image ? :eek:
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More that they were retconned out of being in any way actual gods. The current Elders are chosen tribe members who are believed to embody the spirit, or at least the traits, of the First Elder (the actual spirit spoken of in myths) of that specific tribe. Rather than being any real, overt mystical divinity, it's now treated as something based around the beliefs of the Minmatar faithful. Nothing stopping a more atheistic Minmatar from believing it's all a bunch of hogwash.
[spoiler]"What is notable about the traditional religious philosophy of the Minmatar is that the First Elders are not simply traditional spirits worshiped or contemplated according to ancient practice. As the First Elders are the mythological incarnations of the seven Minmatar tribes, the traditional practice has been for each tribe to select a man or woman from every generation dating back to antiquity and name her as that tribe's elder. These living elders were charged with the responsibility of absorbing the accumulated knowledge of the Minmatar tribes and using it to guide the nation toward the future. Although human, the elders were and are treated with a form of reverence so extreme that its parallel doesn't exist anywhere else in Minmatar society.
Upon an elder's death, she is said to merge with the archetypal First Elder spirit of her tribe. Her name will be recorded for posterity, but for philosophical purposes she is always considered first and foremost a torchbearer for the deeply fundamental human trait the tribe's First Elder is taken to embody."
- EVE Source[/spoiler]
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There is something totemic in that, it's nice. But are we sure it's about the Elder (capital E), the same Elders that were mentionned in TEA ?
I mean they seem to be something above your usual minmatar elder of the village but... ?
( Are they intending to put all the new stuff in the eve wiki eventually ? It's really annoying :/ )
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Nothing is sure with CCP.
I don't think they will put the stuff on the wiki anytime soon, as they want to sell EVE: Source, obviously.
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I believe these are intended to be the same, yes.
Religiously I believe it's now something like:
First Elders (Seven mythological defining spirits of each tribe.)
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Living Elders (The tribe-chosen "torchbearers"/spiritual embodiments of the spirit/ideals of the First Elders. Not literal gods/spirits, but revered above all other Minmatar in the society. Only seven at any time, one for each spirit.)
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Tribe Spiritual Leader (Vuld Haupt etc. Basically High Shaman. Source doesn't actually mention the spiritual leaders IIRC, so it's possible their position was merged with the Living Elders, but the more 'down-to-earth' way Vuld Haupt was referred to when he took over temporarily as Tribal Chief after Midular's death last year seems to imply it's a lesser, more earthbound position than the Living Elders.)
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Regular elders, shamans, etc.
So yes, the Elder Fleet would have been working for the Living Elders, since there's no greater mortal in Matari society.
And they might be intending to put stuff on the EVE wiki. Consider that they recently heavily expanded their wiki staff and have been adding new articles.
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Sounds good. :)
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Good, cause even if someone handed me the cash for EVE Source I'd not pay for it on the selling point that we would never have to buy "new content" in EVE online.
If EVE Source is conflicting with the Wiki, heh. Well. That's new. ;)
Last I checked people weren't putting copies of EVE Source on the Jita Markets, so.. yeah! :)
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Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general. Everyone's going to know who you are,
...unless you're extremely careful, and IMHO, it is a royal pain in the ass to run constant internal cross-checking of everything the new character is and says and does against your old work even when you're playing with new people (while hoping hard that you've settled into the bones of your new character before you are forced to interact with anyone you used to play with, or worse, any of your still-active old characters).
Or so I imagine one of Silver's alts would say.
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I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.
Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.
Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. :P
Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general. Everyone's going to know who you are, so trying to retcon usually gets folks in trouble. That said, good luck with that whole thing. I hope you avoid the things Vince 'gently steered you away from' with his post(s).
That being said, I realize that. I could easily just buy a new character or even re-roll, but I like Anya. It would be truly criticism-averse to just give up on her instead of taking what people have said and move her in a better direction, which I honestly think I'm doing.
How many people in the RP community have seen the PF that is in the Blood Raider Cosmos missions ? I wouldn't expect there to be many.
Without knowledge of that PF, people may suggest that someone is "doing it wrong", whereas that person believes they are "doing it right", because of things they've seen in the blood raider cosmos missions.
so that's why Katrina used the word "hubris".
because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intent.
I'm going to expand on this by saying that this also goes for the Source and the two PF combined can produce even more unstated but definitely alluded to PF. [spoiler]Just an example: Source states that Sarikusa held a coup to take over the Covenant as we see it now. Killing every Sani Sabik sect that disagreed with him. That is not explained anywhere in-game as far as I've seen but there are things in-game, in some cosmos mission, that would lead one to believe the old Covenant regime were very racist. This could be seen as a reason that Sarikusa, being half Deteis, was not welcome and now employs all races in the Covenant. It's not stated as an official reason for the coup anywhere, but both of these things happen in places people may not readily have access to.[/spoiler]
This could even be the case with, say, Thukker PF. I'm probably never going to do Thukker cosmos, if there are any, and I've only skimmed over their PF in source. So I couldn't say that if someone told me that Thukkers actually do a certain thing, and that's the thing they are doing icly, that they are doing anything wrong.
I also really don't care about anyone's rp style actually. As long as you are having fun, I'll go with it, even if you're a rogue drone. (Is participating in YDIW considered doing it wrong too?)
Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general. Everyone's going to know who you are,
...unless you're extremely careful, and IMHO, it is a royal pain in the ass to run constant internal cross-checking of everything the new character is and says and does against your old work even when you're playing with new people (while hoping hard that you've settled into the bones of your new character before you are forced to interact with anyone you used to play with, or worse, any of your still-active old characters).
Or so I imagine one of Silver's alts would say.
Anya is keeping her past, I just wanted to cut out some things from this foum that she mentioned doing in the future.. Eating babies is not one of them, but I can state her intention to and reasons for doing that a lot better.
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Since we are talking about this and you seem pretty cool about it I just wanted to point out something I found interesting about the whole debate around your character. I'm not going to lie I laughed a bit on coms when I first encountered you on Backstage and Vince's post tearing you up was funny. But that said the reality is I actually see nothing overtly wrong with your depiction of a Blood Raider. Based on the DED sites I've run, the chronicles and TBL the Blood Raiders are some pretty horrible people. They do sick, violent things and are just shy of the EOM for nihilistic worldviews. Given that you seem to have at least initially gone for a straight up "I am a Blood Raider" not Sani Sabik bent and actually put some skin in the game with that tower in KFIE it seems like a reasonable if slightly excessive direction.
That said a character like that is going to face some pretty steep, probably insurmountable barriers to having casual RP with damn near anyone. But if your ok with that than fuck it. Do you.
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Since we are talking about this and you seem pretty cool about it I just wanted to point out something I found interesting about the whole debate around your character. I'm not going to lie I laughed a bit on coms when I first encountered you on Backstage and Vince's post tearing you up was funny. But that said the reality is I actually see nothing overtly wrong with your depiction of a Blood Raider. Based on the DED sites I've run, the chronicles and TBL the Blood Raiders are some pretty horrible people. They do sick, violent things and are just shy of the EOM for nihilistic worldviews. Given that you seem to have at least initially gone for a straight up "I am a Blood Raider" not Sani Sabik bent and actually put some skin in the game with that tower in KFIE it seems like a reasonable if slightly excessive direction.
That said a character like that is going to face some pretty steep, probably insurmountable barriers to having casual RP with damn near anyone. But if your ok with that than fuck it. Do you.
Thank you!
I also want to make it clear that although Anya is starting to despise all Sani Sabik that are not apart of the Covenant sect ICly, I really like all the Sani Sabik past and present, even Nauplius, for doing their own cool stuff.
[spoiler]
Nauplius is actually playing a pre-Sarikusa Covenant Sani Sabik, decently imho. There are some things I'd like to discuss with him about his character though. Especially since fellow Sani Sabik and ex-corpmate, Bai'xao, just put a PLEX as a reward for the person that kills him the most. But he has blocked me for unknown reasons.. Oh well ::barriers:: ;) [/spoiler]
Also, about the barriers for casual RP, I even put up my own barriers. Trying to only RP with people that are in a "physical" place by being in the same system, station, POS, w/e. I personally see using "Interbus Shuttle" as YDIW. But as it's a common thing for most casual RP, I don't care what other people do, I just don't (Except with Bai'xao and alts in the past, but no more). Me and Zena turned down quite a few RP with people because of that. Another barrier is that Anya and account alts are banned from Eve forums until October (when I can petition my perma-ban).
I think all of these "barriers" are a good thing. Even being banned from Summit, OOC, (again) and IGS channel would be good imo (already banned from a few IC establishments 8) ). ICly, who would want a Blood Raider spreading their seed? It would also keep Anya from doing too many stupid things.
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Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that it would be wrong in terms of RP coherence to use "interbus" or whatever ? The fact that we cannot leave our captain's quarters except by using our capsuleer ships ? Or just a more general appreciation that it weakens RP by doing so ?
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Just out of curiosity, what makes you say that it would be wrong in terms of RP coherence to use "interbus" or whatever ? The fact that we cannot leave our captain's quarters except by using our capsuleer ships ? Or just a more general appreciation that it weakens RP by doing so ?
Both are good reasons. I could also argue that "Interbussing" is just as wrong as soft cloning, escape podding to a planet, or some other rule bending thing RP'ers do.
The reason Anya doesn't use Interbus is simply because I would like her to be able to play with the others in space too. I don't really care if someone is doing a level four mission, an incursion, or even elite peeveepee. Be honest. Anya and whomever she is with can be in the same place for a second to ERP or have a bite to eat and chat (same thing for Anya in most cases). But then when you are doing whatever you do in space, it would be way more fun to do it together than to have you doing something totally different in space than Anya is doing, yet both characters are being bored in said channel.
This is also another barrier as I mentioned before, seeing as Anya is -9.5 and can't really do a lot of things in empire space. But it makes more sense that all navies would see Anya as a Blood Raider and try to keep her out.
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Actually physically traveling to where you want to RP is superior, yes. While I occasionally get lazy and do the Interbus thing I usually try to actually fly to the location. Not only does this keep your RP grounded in actual gameplay (allowing for people to interact with your RP through in-game activities), but it keeps your timeline in order and forces you to acknowledge your in-game activities as IC (if you are pewpewing in space, then you cannot at the same time be at someone's party. Pick one or the other, you can't be in two places at once).
Using Interbus takes away from the absolute most basic in-game activity--simple travel. Even if you do nothing else in EVE but RP in chat channels, by avoiding the Interbus you demonstrate respect towards your fellow RPers by saying, "Yes, I do undock. I don't do much, but I do undock, and you can do something about it."
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See, this is where I disagree with the last two posters. While actually 'physically' flying out to an RP channel's location just so you can say you're actually be there can be superior, but I would never say it's YDIW. In many of the RPers' situations, they cannot simply just fly there and physically be there in game, for game mechanic reasons or for corporation obligations. Especially if they're out in null sec or in a wormhole. It's just not always feasible or logical.
But ah well. To each their own. :lol:
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See, this is where I disagree with the last two posters. While actually 'physically' flying out to an RP channel's location just so you can say you're actually be there can be superior, but I would never say it's YDIW. In many of the RPers' situations, they cannot simply just fly there and physically be there in game, for game mechanic reasons or for corporation obligations. Especially if they're out in null sec or in a wormhole. It's just not always feasible or logical.
But ah well. To each their own. :lol:
Thanks for that perspective. I think that all of these assumed limitations can be easily overcome with existing game mechanics and still be IC and also add more to your storyline in doing so.
So here is where we can get into some politeness issues. At Cor Arcanus, if someone were to use Interbus they would be blocked or muted. Although I tried to make it clear there were enough camera drones and comm screens to allow people to still participate but not physically.
In other venues, like The Noir, where interbus is the only way in. I still go to the system it's supposedly in. I just accept that it is the way the place is setup to be and go with it.
Anya lives in nullsec and getting anywhere besides Anoikis is usually pretty simple. I actually just learned that putting a corporate office in a system will allow you to change your medical clone to said system. Being in a huge corp makes this easier but if you have your own corp you can dictate all your medical clone spots that way and be anywhere at the price of a clone upgrade.
Corporation obligations I personally would hadle as, Anya can show up via camera drone or holo. Have done that before and it makes sense especially when afk cloaking.
While RPing in Anoikis, it was just easy to let people in or pod Anya out. If you live in Anoikis and don't have a scanner alt I think we can all agree you are doing something wrong there and deserve to lose all the assets you have in said locus.
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New Eden is a universe of infomorphs and quantum computers and instantaneous faster than light fully immersive VR, I don't think capsuleers would be particularly bothered by pedestrian issues of physical location when dealing with each other. The plebes can take the interbus shuttle, so to speak, as they can't afford to do it remotely in real time in VR/whatever.
Physical location would likely only matter for the old fashioned capsuleers or if they have a particular interest in doing something 'in person,' for novelty's sake or for religious or other issues?
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I have the "be there for real" habit too -- and living in Deklein now, its made it "horrific" - which is a major reason why Ari's been quiet/missing-sh IC.
I know quite a few people have seen me fly to the systems they were in to RP. Sometimes I bring gifts etc (silly assets like bottles of stars, I know I brought one Amarrian lady "modern fashion" and spirits etc from Amarr (I used some asset called raggy clothes or w/e it is and ICly explained I had to have the containers re-labelled for.. I don't remember exactly what i made up, but you get the idea). Its not just about being in the same system so you can be SHOT at. It's immersive in the positive aspect as well. I've also recieved gifts from people (again novelty assets or NPC traderoute assets) for RP stuff (Coffee, spirits, cigarettes, etc). It makes things more immersive in that way just as well as it does in being able to blow someone up.
Being in Goonswarm Federation, we have a parade of wardecs, as well as Marmites (duh obvious ;) ) which makes Empire a touch risky to fly out to for a cup of coffee. Now yeah I could fly through Empire space and take the chances, but volunteer "work" I do out here (for me its fun, so I dont count it as work) requires I stay in the region of space I happen to be in in that moment. It would mean people needed to fly out here. And I will personally house-rule that making anyone physically fly into the heart of Deklein is a shitty thing to do. (then again, my character due to nature and personality isn't exactly peppered with IC enemies that wanna go through hoops to shoot me or I wanna go through hoops to shot them either).
So I hang out in the Noir, which well, no you dont NEED to use Interbus. But no one would force that, cause that's just dumb, and the RP venue isn't a ship trap.
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Pulling a Makkal. Is this issue still a thing or have we finally removed this kebab, cause I been noticing a FEW new faces stickin around and being helped.
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Is what issue still a thing? The thread is kind of all over the place.
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Is YDIW still prevelant be it bluntly or talking behind backs and saying don't RP with so and so wise.
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Oh yes. It's there. Never seen "Don't RP with" in all my years in Eve, but YDIW is blessedly still present.
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Don't RP with Anslo. That scrub couldn't RP his way out of a lit room. :P
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When it comes to interbussing around, I play it by ear. Generally speaking I'd rather have all my ducks in a row than not - if I have the time and want Aedre to be present physically, that's what I do. If I can't because FW is being crazy and it's unrealistic he'd leave, holo is the alternative. Most places have pretty decent equipment, I've noticed.
If I just don't have time to fly out and back purely for OOC reasons, since I only get on for a few hours a day not even most days, then I'm not about to pass up a chance to RP just because I can't afford the derping around time. It needs to make some sense in a narrative way, but I won't hold myself to things too strictly just because it doesn't make sense sometimes from an RL perspective; it's almost equally forced. Aedre hits up the Lounge quite a bit, and he almost always does so in person. It's important to him, for Reasons.
It's not a ton of jumps, but it's a hell of a lot to drop a fleet, fly out, RP until bedtime and then fly back? In the meantime, the dude has plenty of his own life's time to do just that, which he'd do diligently, because that's what he wants to do, and he has time while I'm working to 'do' that.
But when I have the time I do visit, because physically visiting is just a nice gesture. Can't argue with that. Things just aren't ideal on my end sometimes, and I'd rather get the RP in. "YDIW" seems a little harsh to dole out blanket-wise, but I can see how if interbussing is abused, that can really take away from things. But that's like everything I guess. Abuse of things is bad. Striking things as 'always wrong' puts artificial caps on stuff, too, I think.
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The day a channel will explicitly state that one must be present in local and docked in the correct station to start a RP session in said channel, I will comply. Otherwise, I don't see the point since :interbus: seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I usually use holoprojection for more serious reasons, like impossibility to be there, especially if already RPing in another venue, the impossibility to see the character coming in flesh in some venues, or that kind of things.
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The day a channel will explicitly state that one must be present in local and docked in the correct station to start a RP session in said channel, I will comply. Otherwise, I don't see the point since :interbus: seems perfectly reasonable to me.
I usually use holoprojection for more serious reasons, like impossibility to be there, especially if already RPing in another venue, the impossibility to see the character coming in flesh in some venues, or that kind of things.
+1. I can't even fly in systems where some venues are. Interbus4lyfe
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*Casts Call Of The Grave*
*Ends all Necroposts*
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YOURE NOT MY SUPERVISOR
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I prefer to fly to locations to be there personally, especially if it is stated clearly, unless busy somewhere with something.
I accept both interbusing and coming in person, and usually follow what my partner/partners in RP wish.
The only no-no for me are inacceptable to general baseliners locations: like Thera, Jove space, wormholes. However, I was invited to two wormhole systems and I think I will be there physically for a cup of tea or coffee, of course with being present physically ;)
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Pulling a Makkal. Is this issue still a thing or have we finally removed this kebab, cause I been noticing a FEW new faces stickin around and being helped.
What is 'pulling a Makkal?'
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Thread necroing, if I remember the context right. :P
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Is it ironic?
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Maybe? I've been awake for a little over 20 hours so I think my irony meter might be needing recalibration.
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Oh my god its Makkal!!!! MAKKAL I MISHED YOU <3 pls come backkk
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Is it ironic?
Not anymore now...maybe it never was. :s :eek:
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Being an old sort, I've been doing the RP thing for a very, very long time. Basic D&D sort of old. That being said...
That we're even having this conversation, puts our little community leagues above a LOT of other games' communities. We do a very good job of avoiding blatant SF and Space Opera names and conventions. We don't have to deal with the player who is dating the GM and gets the Pollyanna (Sookie) character with the uber-wonky powers. Game mechanics keep us from having to suffer the "power-gamer" and the "rules lawyer."
For my RP, I try very, very hard to tell a story or enhance a story that is being told. The rules I keep for myself are avoid tropes (though I realize every character and situation is a trope: http://tvtropes.org/) and keep it logical. This is SF, and while we don't all need multiple doctorates, if I can keep my character from walking around on top of the station without a EVA suit, I'm ahead of the curve. CCP gave us a good universe to play around in. So yes, it's a bit silly to be running down the corridors of your ship to put out a fire when you're supposed to be in a capsule and can just remotely open a hatch. Everyone starts somewhere. We're the people that help the new people work out the details.
CCP has been taking a lot of cues from us recently. So as long as we're good storytellers, being good RPers will just come naturally. So don't be too harsh when "Capt JamieKirk" logs on and tells you he's secretly a spy from the Drone Collective. Gently point to the OOC resources and help him along. Then if that doesn't work, space the fucker.
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Y SINJIN!? Y U NECRO DIS?
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I noticed this thread.
I didn't read any of it.
But I immediately thought of this. (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LL-gyhZVvx0)
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Kyoko wins this thread...
Or at least the part that I can remember, the post-necro round.
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One of the most useable threads here.
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Interesting topic.