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[Lyn Farel]

If your garden is overgrown with weeds, your problem is not that you're not allowed to use a flamethrower to clear it.

Personally the reason i find myself less and less inclined to use Backstage has nothing to do with this argument. I mean i do see the issue and would find myself more on the Vince side of things but it really isn't that big a deal to me.

Whay bothers me is more the fact that this forum has become some bittervet hangout populated by people who don't play the game yet feel compelled to shit on every single thread. Like i get it, you don't like the game and think it's all pointless. Eve is dead. So on, so forth. Let those of us still interested in actually playing and making up stories have this forum and go start some "veterans of CCP's fuckups" forum.

I am not sure to whom it is supposed to refer though like Havo I don't think (or hope) that I didn't fall into that category. As I said in my departure post I was definitely not going to take part anymore in discussion about game mechanisms, patchs, extensions and all since i'm not even playing. Or at best, saying positive things about them like that I wished that I could have tried this one or that one.

As for my posts in there for example, they are mostly in the hope to help the community. If the effect is the opposite, then I will apologize and go crawl back into my hole. :/

However maybe are we confusing a bit the fact that the forum is populated by old geezers only precisely due to the problem discussed in that other thread about who is left in RP ? Don't always blame the bittervets, maybe they just became clearly visible because there is just nothing else happening besides.

[Louella Dougans]

When the Empyrean Age novel was released, it fundamentally rewrote what was "doing it right" for many, particularly the Minmatar players.

The Elders were mentioned as being worshipped like gods, and with various powers, including that of making every Minmatar extremely deferent and subservient to an Elder. "Jaffa, kree", as Stargate would say.

This took almost everything that players had interpreted and come up with about Minmatar society and religion, and stamped it into tiny pieces, swept those pieces up into a bag, and then stamped on the bag some more.

The point being, that "doing it right", can be radically redefined at CCP's whim, and has been done several times in the past. So, it is foolish for players to say "This is the right way to rp a thing", based on their interpretation of the portion of pf that they've seen.

And that portion of PF is significant. How many people in the RP community have seen the PF that is in the Blood Raider Cosmos missions ? I wouldn't expect there to be many.

Without knowledge of that PF, people may suggest that someone is "doing it wrong", whereas that person believes they are "doing it right", because of things they've seen in the blood raider cosmos missions.

so that's why Katrina used the word "hubris".

because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intent.

[Louella Dougans]

also, by looking at the "who's online" thing I happened to see that someone was looking at this thread, which illustrates what I just said, about things being changed (or at least appearing to) at CCP's whim:
http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4054.0

[Lyn Farel]

Well played, now EVERYONE in the who's online is looking at that thread. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intents.

I agree, basically, but I fixed that sentence to you. I think it's quite clear that behind EVE PF isn't one intent. Rather it is a couple of intents based on the author(s) writing at the time, which also change and who don't seem to work too closely together nor (usually) take into account all the already existing PF.

[Esna Pitoojee]

When the Empyrean Age novel was released ... (*snip*)

Actually, I would point to the whole Elder thing as a prime example of the community handling a YDIW situation in a fairly good manner.

On encountering something that was a very apparent case of someone - a CCP employee in this case, but still someone - doinitwrong, we did not singularly spam visceral hatred or just yell NO U WRONG NO U WRONG NO U WRONG repeatedly. Instead, we stuck to our guns and calmly explained why this interpretation (among others in The Empyrean Age) was a very, very bad one, using existing examples from PF to back up our points.

Result? Elders were written back into being merely respected tribal leaders, not pseudo-god things that trigger instant, instinctual groveling for any Matari.

This is really, I think, a prime example of how telling someone that YDIW can work - if done right.

[Lyn Farel]

They were retconned out of their pseudo god image ?

[Samira Kernher]

More that they were retconned out of being in any way actual gods. The current Elders are chosen tribe members who are believed to embody the spirit, or at least the traits, of the First Elder (the actual spirit spoken of in myths) of that specific tribe. Rather than being any real, overt mystical divinity, it's now treated as something based around the beliefs of the Minmatar faithful. Nothing stopping a more atheistic Minmatar from believing it's all a bunch of hogwash.

[spoiler]"What is notable about the traditional religious philosophy of the Minmatar is that the First Elders are not simply traditional spirits worshiped or contemplated according to ancient practice. As the First Elders are the mythological incarnations of the seven Minmatar tribes, the traditional practice has been for each tribe to select a man or woman from every generation dating back to antiquity and name her as that tribe's elder. These living elders were charged with the responsibility of absorbing the accumulated knowledge of the Minmatar tribes and using it to guide the nation toward the future. Although human, the elders were and are treated with a form of reverence so extreme that its parallel doesn't exist anywhere else in Minmatar society.

Upon an elder's death, she is said to merge with the archetypal First Elder spirit of her tribe. Her name will be recorded for posterity, but for philosophical purposes she is always considered first and foremost a torchbearer for the deeply fundamental human trait the tribe's First Elder is taken to embody."

- EVE Source[/spoiler]

[Lyn Farel]

There is something totemic in that, it's nice. But are we sure it's about the Elder (capital E), the same Elders that were mentionned in TEA ?

I mean they seem to be something above your usual minmatar elder of the village but... ?

( Are they intending to put all the new stuff in the eve wiki eventually ? It's really annoying :/ )

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Nothing is sure with CCP.
I don't think they will put the stuff on the wiki anytime soon, as they want to sell EVE: Source, obviously.

[Samira Kernher]

I believe these are intended to be the same, yes.

Religiously I believe it's now something like:

First Elders (Seven mythological defining spirits of each tribe.)
|
Living Elders (The tribe-chosen "torchbearers"/spiritual embodiments of the spirit/ideals of the First Elders. Not literal gods/spirits, but revered above all other Minmatar in the society. Only seven at any time, one for each spirit.)
|
Tribe Spiritual Leader (Vuld Haupt etc. Basically High Shaman. Source doesn't actually mention the spiritual leaders IIRC, so it's possible their position was merged with the Living Elders, but the more 'down-to-earth' way Vuld Haupt was referred to when he took over temporarily as Tribal Chief after Midular's death last year seems to imply it's a lesser, more earthbound position than the Living Elders.)
|
Regular elders, shamans, etc.


So yes, the Elder Fleet would have been working for the Living Elders, since there's no greater mortal in Matari society.

And they might be intending to put stuff on the EVE wiki. Consider that they recently heavily expanded their wiki staff and have been adding new articles.

[Lyn Farel]

Sounds good.

[Arista Shahni]

Good, cause even if someone handed me the cash for EVE Source I'd not pay for it on the selling point that we would never have to buy "new content" in EVE online.

If EVE Source is conflicting with the Wiki, heh.  Well.  That's new. 

Last I checked people weren't putting copies of EVE Source on the Jita Markets, so.. yeah!

[Vieve]

Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general.  Everyone's going to know who you are,

...unless you're extremely careful, and IMHO, it is a royal pain in the ass to run constant internal cross-checking of everything the new character is and says and does against your old work even when you're playing with new people (while hoping hard that you've settled into the bones of your new character before you are forced to interact with anyone you used to play with, or worse, any of your still-active old characters).


Or so I imagine one of Silver's alts would say.

[Anyanka Funk]

I was the unnamed in question. And I'm happy that Vince came out and shared his opinion. I've been trying to take all the criticism of Anyanka constructively. I've asked Silver to delete old posts because I would like to take advice given and apply it without baggage.

Either way, Vince actually does help out people more so than the mods here. I for one think if Vince were a mod things would be better overall.

Backstage is very good place for info and I'm sorry if I mucked it up a little with a few shit posts. 

Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general.  Everyone's going to know who you are, so trying to retcon usually gets folks in trouble.  That said, good luck with that whole thing.  I hope you avoid the things Vince 'gently steered you away from' with his post(s).

That being said, I realize that. I could easily just buy a new character or even re-roll, but I like Anya. It would be truly criticism-averse to just give up on her instead of taking what people have said and move her in a better direction, which I honestly think I'm doing.

How many people in the RP community have seen the PF that is in the Blood Raider Cosmos missions ? I wouldn't expect there to be many.

Without knowledge of that PF, people may suggest that someone is "doing it wrong", whereas that person believes they are "doing it right", because of things they've seen in the blood raider cosmos missions.

so that's why Katrina used the word "hubris".

because we as players, only know and experience a portion of the PF, and interpret it, and do not know the authors intent.

I'm going to expand on this by saying that this also goes for the Source and the two PF combined can produce even more unstated but definitely alluded to PF. [spoiler]Just an example: Source states that Sarikusa held a coup to take over the Covenant as we see it now. Killing every Sani Sabik sect that disagreed with him. That is not explained anywhere in-game as far as I've seen but there are things in-game, in some cosmos mission, that would lead one to believe the old Covenant regime were very racist. This could be seen as a reason that Sarikusa, being half Deteis, was not welcome and now employs all races in the Covenant. It's not stated as an official reason for the coup anywhere, but both of these things happen in places people may not readily have access to.[/spoiler]

This could even be the case with, say, Thukker PF. I'm probably never going to do Thukker cosmos, if there are any, and I've only skimmed over their PF in source. So I couldn't say that if someone told me that Thukkers actually do a certain thing, and that's the thing they are doing icly, that they are doing anything wrong.

I also really don't care about anyone's rp style actually. As long as you are having fun, I'll go with it, even if you're a rogue drone. (Is participating in YDIW considered doing it wrong too?)

Trying to escape from the 'baggage', imo, is the wrong approach in Eve in general.  Everyone's going to know who you are,

...unless you're extremely careful, and IMHO, it is a royal pain in the ass to run constant internal cross-checking of everything the new character is and says and does against your old work even when you're playing with new people (while hoping hard that you've settled into the bones of your new character before you are forced to interact with anyone you used to play with, or worse, any of your still-active old characters).


Or so I imagine one of Silver's alts would say.

Anya is keeping her past, I just wanted to cut out some things from this foum that she mentioned doing in the future.. Eating babies is not one of them, but I can state her intention to and reasons for doing that a lot better.