Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Lithium Flower]

I'm kind of out of the loop in terms of what may or may not have actually happened in the Summit to get Diana banned, bit I do feel that some of the language coming from all sides here is unnecessarily antagonistic. We've not reached ad hominem yet, but we're certainly getting there.

That's the problem, nothing happened. She was just banned.

[Andreus Ixiris]

And this is obvious lie about the character.

Fair warning: do not try the "this is an obvious lie" thing with me. I have no patience for it. I'm trying to explain all of this to you for your benefit - I don't get anything out of this. It's taking up time in my day.

Diana Kim is rather respectful and polite character but harsh and ruthless to her enemies.

No, that actually makes it worse. It demonstrates she's perfectly capable of being polite when she wants to be, so she's intentionally acting disrespectful and contemptuous to people she doesn't agree with - and, in case you didn't realise, the majority of the characters in the EVE roleplay community don't agree with her because she calls an entire race of people subhuman, advocates for the destruction of an entire nation, repeatedly makes outrageous claims about things that are demonstrably untrue, accuses people who don't believe in her narrow-minded viewpoint of how the State should be "traitors" and repeatedly calls other women "whores."

To make easier her RP, for her (and for couple others) I have charts with characters, towards whom she is harsh. For Diana personally, there are two lists: first list,  for those who were continuously trolling and insulting her without reason. She tends to avoid these peoples, don't pay attention to their words, and only against them she is allowed sometimes to make first insults, since they were doing it multiple times earlier. Luckily - this list is incredibly short and getting into it rather hard.

Second list is rather large - it is obvious enemies (all members of FDU/TDF) and characters, who has shown hostile behaviour - insults of her out of nothing, minor trolling, insults of Tibus Heth (not constant, though, just single), those, who she just considers enemies and prefers to shoot at than talk with. It is rather easy to get into this list, and easy to get out To this peoples Diana simply doesn't pay proper respect and maintains very cold and harsh stance. She is allowed to insult them only when they insult her. She might show respect to them, but they should work rather hard for this 

You keep using this phrase "without reason." A lot of people insult Diana Kim but it's never without reason - for instance, she advocates the destruction of an entire nation. She wants to destroy the Federation. She makes outrageous claims about things that a casual glance at the state of the world should tell her simply are not true. She insults other Caldari while not even understanding how the legal processes of her own country work. She supports a character (Tibus Heth) who flat out should not be supported by loyal Caldari because he's a traitor and a terrorist, yet accuses other Caldari who point this out to her of being traitors and terrorists. She makes deeply racist statements against Federal ("dirty kakku jaijji") and Republican ("go back to your slave pen idiot") individuals while in the same breath accuses Federals and Republicans of not affording her proper respect. She demands to be called by her military title while refusing to address others with theirs. She demands that people respect their elders even when they're not remotely worthy of respect (i.e. Vaari, Nauplius) and yet refuses to afford respect to her own elders (i.e. Stitcher, Toushi Kimura, Andreus Ixiris, Saede Riordan, Ava Starfire, etc.). A lot of people aren't even subjected to this treatement directly - they see her doing it to their friends, and get upset on their behalf.

In short, a huge number of people insult Diana Kim. Very, very few do it "for no reason."

For all other peoples, she is polite and respectful, and you can easily see it for yourself, if you peek into "Intergalactic Summit" and just hear how she speaks with others.

I've seen Diana Kim act with patent disrespect to people without any provocation whatsoever, and even when she's not acting disrespectful she often takes any excuse to direct the topic of conversation to how much she hates Gallenteans.

Of course, just hear, don't try to talk with her. You should know why.

Because Andreus Ixiris is one of the very, very few people who's still willing to even try and get through to her that the things she believes are false and that the things she wants to do are immoral and impossible?

[Lithium Flower]

Actually the only time you end up permabanned on all characters is exactly when you are an awful human being IRL.  Basically, if you get yourself perma'd from OOC you can expect to get yourself perma'd from all of the IC channels associated with it as well because it means that you have done something to make the majority of the mods go "It is legitimately better to not have this player around".

This is basically an insult, and simply misses what exactly character said wrong again.

Being "awful IRL", okay, what was said in OOC then? I mean, something terrible terrible for ban? Do you have facts, maybe show us?

'
In your case it's certainly less serious than, say, "Stalking someone OOC" which is something that got someone banned much much faster than you were.  In your case it was simply "You have this awful tendency to create drama" and you spent the vast majority of your time either doing things that would get you banned for a short period of time and then every time it happened you would immediately start antagonizing and sending evemails all over the place, and when 90% of the evemails are about you or are from you, it becomes pretty clear where the common denominator is and where the problem lies.

You want to be unbanned, you're going to need to talk to Graelyn, but good luck with that because you pushed so hard you made him sick of having to deal with you.

Where are these evemails?
Where are these bad things, that got her banned?..

I have asked facts and you give me what? Just insults again?
What exactly and when was said between last and current ban, that was so awful?
Show us this drama and compare what she was doing with what others were doing during this period.

As for asking him unbanned - No. I won't. I asked several times, I asked for reason - none was provided. I asked for term - he replied "it's all very nebulous".
Let him unban her when he will wish, I don't care about it. With current situation, when you return to the channel and try to avoid any rules violation, try to behave and even don't insult really bad peoples, who attack you personally, and you get banned regardless, there is no real reason to return there, until the situation with moderation will become professional and peoples stop giving bans because someone scratches left heel.

Which, I hope, will happen someday.

[Ava Starfire]

You screamed obsenities (sp) at Morwen for HOURS in local. You received literally dozens of warnings, many of which were from me personally, to dial it down a notch. You were asked, told, begged, pleaded with, for over a year.

And for what it is worth, I STILL argued against the permanent ban, but it is not my channel.

You know, if you put as much effort into patching up the bridges youve burned, and maybe trying to get along a bit with the rest of the kids in the sandbox, even a teensy bit, as you did into this whole thread? You'd be way ahead.

[kalaratiri]

Maybe I wasn't succinct enough in my last post.

The core of the problem lies in the fact that Diana Kim is a horrible person who treats almost everyone with contemptuous disrespect.

And this is obvious lie about the character.
Diana Kim is rather respectful and polite character, but harsh and ruthless to her enemies. To make easier her RP, for her (and for couple others) I have charts with characters, towards whom she is harsh. For Diana personally, there are two lists: first list,  for those who were continuously trolling and insulting her without reason. She tends to avoid these peoples, don't pay attention to their words, and only against them she is allowed sometimes to make first insults, since they were doing it multiple times earlier. Luckily - this list is incredibly short and getting into it rather hard.
Second list is rather large - it is obvious enemies (all members of FDU/TDF) and characters, who has shown hostile behaviour - insults of her out of nothing, minor trolling, insults of Tibus Heth (not constant, though, just single), those, who she just considers enemies and prefers to shoot at than talk with. It is rather easy to get into this list, and easy to get out To this peoples Diana simply doesn't pay proper respect and maintains very cold and harsh stance. She is allowed to insult them only when they insult her. She might show respect to them, but they should work rather hard for this 

For all other peoples, she is polite and respectful, and you can easily see it for yourself, if you peek into "Intergalactic Summit" and just hear how she speaks with others. Of course, just hear, don't try to talk with her. You should know why.

NO.

Until YOU GO AWAY from our space and our planet, federal scum will be hunted everywhere, as criminals who serve criminal gallentean hegemony, and all of you will be destroyed without mercy.

Maybe when Caldari boots will stomp your door down, and your family will be shot down on your own eyes, when your planets will be bombarded from the orbit, you will understand us.
Until then... see you soon!

Oh, and almost forgot, gallentean, can you tell us where you live, so I could send you those mounds of gallentean bodies, I make daily in Villore and collect them from wrecks?

Don't worry, I don't kill PoWs though, I kill them before capture Big smile So, yea. No POWs. Sorry.
All enemies of the State simply die.

I know you will include this example of your posting as directed towards Diana's enemies. But surely you can see how this quality of vitriol will make other characters less likely to want to have anything to do with Diana? It's not exactly showing a "polite and respectful" kind of character.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Let him unban her when he will wish, I don't care about it.

So stop posting about it.

No, seriously. Don't start this shitstorm of a thread and then feign like you don't care. You care, a lot, which is why you've chosen to throw down in public. This isn't some altruistic 'lets improve the moderation methods' thread. It's not even an anarchistic 'fight the power' rant. This is a temper tantrum, because you're not allowed back in the Summit, you don't agree with the reasons why (and are summarily ignoring them), and demand different and 'better' reasons.

You definitely care. This whole thread is you caring.

[Samira Kernher]

Maybe I wasn't succinct enough in my last post.

The core of the problem lies in the fact that Diana Kim is a horrible person who treats almost everyone with contemptuous disrespect.

And this is obvious lie about the character.
Diana Kim is rather respectful and polite character

I'm sorry, DK, but it's not a lie, because a lie implies intentional misrepresentation for the purpose of attack. Andreus was actually being very polite in his posts there and trying to help. You can view it as him misunderstanding your character and so you can choose not to agree with his assessment, but it certainly wasn't a lie because it wasn't an intentionally malicious misrepresentation.

Secondly, no, DK is not respectful and polite. This is not a lie, it's the truth. Just because you are unwilling to believe it doesn't make it a lie. Does she try to be respectful and polite towards a small minority of people? Sure. But that doesn't make her respectful or polite as a general character trait. She is quite probably the most hostile and abrasive character that I have seen in EVE RP, and considering the general demeanor of most other capsuleers that's saying something.

Can you blame other characters for "starting it"? I suppose. I can't speak from personal experience since I wasn't around when DK was new and still establishing herself. But the key to being an actually respectful and polite character is that they are able to ignore attacks against them in favor of maintaining that respectability; it means they don't fight fire with fire. Diana does not do this. She takes every attack personally, and responds with equal and often superior force. This in turn prompts other characters to up their game, and so on and so forth it becomes a vicious cycle. If DK wants that hostility to end, then she's going to have to be the one to take the high road and learn to let attacks roll off her shoulders and refuse to respond with insults of her own. She's going to have to treat even the people who are opposed to her with respect if she wants to get anywhere.

Now, I will say that this is not a requirement for RP, since as I've said before IC conflict is a good thing and it's okay if characters don't like each other and are hostile with each other. But this is a lesson that is just as important for OOC relations, too. Far more important there, actually. Maybe you consider yourself the victim here, but that doesn't matter. Responding with hostility won't help your case and won't make people vouch for you. More often, it will make those of us who do try to stand up for you throw up our hands in frustration because you just go and run back into the fire. I don't support the ban, but if you want anything to get resolved you need to recognize that it's a two-way-street and that there needs to be some give-and-take. Don't dismiss criticism and advice out of hand.

[Niraia]

This Diana Kim character sounds like a pretty good roleplayer

[Lithium Flower]

Secondly, no, DK is not respectful and polite. This is not a lie, it's the truth. Just because you are unwilling to believe it doesn't make it a lie. Does she try to be respectful and polite towards a small minority of people? Sure. But that doesn't make her respectful or polite as a general character trait. She is quite probably the most hostile and abrasive character that I have seen in EVE RP, and considering the general demeanor of most other capsuleers that's saying something.

Can you blame other characters for "starting it"? I suppose. I can't speak from personal experience since I wasn't around when DK was new and still establishing herself. But the key to being an actually respectful and polite character is that they are able to ignore attacks against them in favor of maintaining that respectability; it means they don't fight fire with fire. Diana does not do this. She takes every attack personally, and responds with equal and often superior force. This in turn prompts other characters to up their game, and so on and so forth it becomes a vicious cycle. If DK wants that hostility to end, then she's going to have to be the one to take the high road and learn to let attacks roll off her shoulders and refuse to respond with insults of her own. She's going to have to treat even the people who are opposed to her with respect if she wants to get anywhere.

She is indeed very aggressive character, and as for being polite towards small minority - it is generally everyone she meets, before they start attack her 
As for blaming about starting it.. well, it isn't actual blame. It is DK's trait. She is very conflict-inspiring character, although she never starts conflict herself. But when someone starts it against her, she willingly accepts it and... escalates 
It is a character to fight, to conflict, to make enemies and wreak havoc, and sometimes I am rather disappointed, when instead of a violence character gets... rather unusual interaction 
She is also rather flexible character and can cease conflict, if other party wishes so. Otherwise, she will never do it herself and will just continue escalating.
In short, I could describe her best as "She is looking for trouble".

Now, I will say that this is not a requirement for RP, since as I've said before IC conflict is a good thing and it's okay if characters don't like each other and are hostile with each other. But this is a lesson that is just as important for OOC relations, too. Far more important there, actually. Maybe you consider yourself the victim here, but that doesn't matter. Responding with hostility won't help your case and won't make people vouch for you. More often, it will make those of us who do try to stand up for you throw up our hands in frustration because you just go and run back into the fire. I don't support the ban, but if you want anything to get resolved you need to recognize that it's a two-way-street and that there needs to be some give-and-take. Don't dismiss criticism and advice out of hand.

Well, character traits aside, the topic was about the ban without reason.
There is a thing, that can be considered as criticism and advice.
For example, when people say "Diana, calling gallentes filth is bad, stop it, or you be muted".
Diana: But gallentes are filth!
Mod: MUTED.

This is pretty much Diana's behavior. She asks for trouble - she gets it. She knows she is doing something wrong, she knows consequences, yet she continues knowing the result.

What happened now:
Diana talks in summit, Diana gets banned. Diana has no idea what she said wrong.
She wasn't asked to stop doing something. She wasn't even notified what she said wrong.
She just was banned.

For criticism, you say something like, this is bad, you should not do this (maybe tell why, but it is not really necessary - just at least to know how to behave to not get banned).
Advice? There was none.
Just people saying Diana is bad, Diana is awful, Diana is terrible.. How is this criticism?
Nobody said yet what exactly she said wrong for the ban.
And that's the problem.

[Lithium Flower]

You screamed obsenities (sp) at Morwen for HOURS in local.

This was outside of the channel, and for what Morwen was doing for WEEKS in channel. Diana will never admit it IC, but it was just a revenge for lies and insults for all that time.

You received literally dozens of warnings, many of which were from me personally, to dial it down a notch. You were asked, told, begged, pleaded with, for over a year.

Yet nothing was recieved for last two bans, except bans themselves.
And, although, there was kinda violation that triggered the first ban (I still will never agree it was enough for ban), there was none for second.

And for what it is worth, I STILL argued against the permanent ban, but it is not my channel.

And I still don't understand what was said wrong for that ban...
I browsed logs for several days, there was nothing terribly wrong, many peoples were saying things way worse than I have ever said...

You know, if you put as much effort into patching up the bridges youve burned, and maybe trying to get along a bit with the rest of the kids in the sandbox, even a teensy bit, as you did into this whole thread? You'd be way ahead.

I tried... but Im tired of this.
How I can do what to do, if peoples don't even say what exactly was wrong?
I tried to be polite, I tried to be professional, I simply tired of that *censored*
If I need to do something... then, what exactly? 

[Andreus Ixiris]

What happened now:
Diana talks in summit, Diana gets banned. Diana has no idea what she said wrong.
She wasn't asked to stop doing something. She wasn't even notified what she said wrong.
She just was banned.

On at least one occasion you were hurling insults at a moderator for several hours before a ban was given. It doesn't matter whether it was in-character or not.

For criticism, you say something like, this is bad, you should not do this (maybe tell why, but it is not really necessary - just at least to know how to behave to not get banned).
Advice? There was none.

This thread is full of people trying to give you advice on how to moderate your behaviour. You keep casually disregarding us and telling us that we're wrong without backing up your statements.

You want me to put it simply? Moderate your portrayal of Diana Kim's ego and behaviour with knowledge of the out-of-character implications of that behaviour. For instance, you give us a good example of that here:

For example, when people say "Diana, calling gallentes filth is bad, stop it, or you be muted".
Diana: But gallentes are filth!
Mod: MUTED.

If a moderator tells Diana to stop calling Gallenteans filth, have Diana stop calling Gallenteans filth. And if you literally cannot bring yourself to do that, then I can only suggest that you alter your portrayal of Diana Kim so she doesn't hate Gallenteans or the Federation. That would resolve a lot of the issues you're currently having.

Just people saying Diana is bad, Diana is awful, Diana is terrible.. How is this criticism?

What's actually happening is we're giving you reasons why Diana Kim's behaviour is received so negatively, and lots and lots of advice on how you might change that. From my perspective it seems very much like you're flat out ignoring it or pretending that it isn't being given to you.

[Lithium Flower]

Oh, and more, yesterday someone banned Mika.
What she did? Just posted link to this discussion.

Good job, good job.

[Desiderya]

So, DK, two concise questions:

Why do you think you got (multiple) modded?
Why did the mod actions have no impact on your behaviour?

[Samira Kernher]

This is pretty much Diana's behavior. She asks for trouble - she gets it. She knows she is doing something wrong, she knows consequences, yet she continues knowing the result.

In that case I see no issue with her. If that's the kind of character she is intended to be then have at it. Hostile characters are not a bad thing, provided you are willing to accept the consequences for that hostility.

What happened now:
Diana talks in summit, Diana gets banned. Diana has no idea what she said wrong.
She wasn't asked to stop doing something. She wasn't even notified what she said wrong.
She just was banned.

For criticism, you say something like, this is bad, you should not do this (maybe tell why, but it is not really necessary - just at least to know how to behave to not get banned).
Advice? There was none.
Just people saying Diana is bad, Diana is awful, Diana is terrible.. How is this criticism?
Nobody said yet what exactly she said wrong for the ban.
And that's the problem.

And if that is the case, then that is a problem, yes. The moderator has a responsibility to give the person the reason for the ban, and if that reason is, "can't be bothered," or personal annoyance, or dislike of the character, rather than a specific case of rules-breaking (and there really, really needs to be a codified rule-list of what is and is not acceptable), then the ban is irresponsible and inappropriate. Now, as I personally am not a member of the moderator staff nor do I have all the private details, I can't say if there were or were not appropriate reasons. Whatever those reasons are and whether or not they are appropriate though is really something that should be discussed between the moderators and the aggrieved party in private conversation/PMs rather than in public.

[Lyn Farel]

It is irresponsible modding to ban people just because you "can't be bothered". Being a volunteer doesn't excuse it IMO. Especially in a game where you are basically denying the player access to the primary public RP outlet. Temporary mutes when a situation is super tense, disruptive, and toxic, sure, but bans I really, really don't understand.

What would you do if someone was talking about you (presumably in a negative light) in a semi-public forum in which you were banned?  Sit on your hands and just accept that any potential first impressions with others you might engage are already tainted by what another individual (who is essentially your enemy) says?

If it's IC, who gives a crap?

I was afraid to say it at first myself considering my track record.

It wouldn't be an issue if the channel never became the cornerstone of RP. If you have to infiltrate alts after your own ban to continue being able to be in a one way only relationship with the people the channel kept you in liaison with, that's pretty insane. It gets even worse when you take into account the issues mentioned by Orange previously.

Basically the owners of the channel never really managed to evolve with their channel popularity that skyrocketed that well and now embraces a huge part of this community. Being barred from OOC basically means choking to death on the RP scene. You can still survive through other channels with your RP friends, but you lose every connection to the outside, it's more or less like going suddenly blind, and unable to continue waging the PR war that rages all over IC and OOC interactions. How many times have I seen on the OOC channel new players suddenly spitting on players they have actually never met, but just only heard of ? They were told so many times how awful some players were by an echo chamber or another that they suddenly start to treat the player in question that way, where the player is not even here. That's pretty much how you create pariahs the most efficiently. Human interaction at its finest.

The owners continue to administrate it like a private intimate channel, where it is certainly not anymore. That's a complicated matter to my eyes, to draw a line between where a simple channel becomes more than a private channels gathering people sharing the same ideal : a general, unavoidable channel for all this RP community. And one thing most people don't like, either in backstage or ingame like OOC/summit, it's to be told they made mistakes. It's an unconditional truth I have witnessed on every player community. It's too much to acknowledge most of the time, which is a shame. Most of the time people complaining about things just get told to stfu or get snark degrading remarks somehow justified because 95% of players deserved it (whether they do or not, I will be the first one to acknowledge that most people indeed deserve what they get). Mods perfectly know that their position in the community protects them of anything by the law of popularity as long as they act in accordance to public opinion.

It would make the channel atmosphere a lot more breathable if the team was a bit more... open and calm. Keep the smug away, and the authority complex leading players to only see abuse of authority everywhere (some of your mods already do it perfectly, cf Ava or Silas before he left, that's mod material). If a mod has to take vacations and breath before burning a fuse in public, then it's probably the best thing on earth to do. The main issue is hypocrisy at its finest, even if it's not intended at all : rules of channels ask for people to behave, and be respectful. It's the case for most channels, it's the case on backstage more than everywhere else, but anywhere I have been, (some) mods are no better than players at times, and do not actually give people reasons to behave otherwise. Always a few bad apples in every mod team, that's an universal constant. The only thing you can hope is that this number will prove to be the smallest possible, which like everything can be depressing.

When I read a topic like that when the player actually has to wait for non mods replies to actually get an answer, it's pretty telling. Imo, if mods have to resort to the usual very convenient excuse of "we are only amateurs so that we behave as we like", the mod is not deemed to be a mod. That's the worst thing to say and only lessens the image people have of moderation. It only entertains a standard for mediocrity.