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Author Topic: Problems in summit moderation  (Read 6998 times)

Andreus Ixiris

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #30 on: 30 May 2014, 19:28 »

You know what, I'm going to go ahead and write this out anyway. You're pretty much free to read every word of it or completely ignore it, but take in mind I'm writing this pretty much exclusively for your benefit. The only thing I get out of this is finally getting this off my chest. I'm going to try and write this out in as level-headed a manner as possible, but if it gets Catacomb'd, oh well - at least I made an effort.

So there's a lot of stuff in here that you probably already know, but I feel the need to illustrate my thought processes, so if any of this is old news to you, forgive me.

Let's start at the root of it - Diana Kim, the in-universe character in EVE Online. Diana Kim is not a nice person by any possible stretch of the imagination. She's rude, arrogant, disrepsectful, abrasive, antisocial, violent, spiteful, deceptive, mean-spirited, racist, bigoted, emotionally manipulative, short-sighted, close-minded, mentally unstable, wilfully ignorant, chronically hypocritical and completely irrational - she's essentially a walking collection of personality flaws. Now, this in and of itself is not a bad thing - in fact, observing her from an outside perspective is very compelling given that she's a woman helplessly ensnared by Provist propaganda, clutching desperately to the illusions she has of how the world should be as she slowly watches them become more and more removed from the actual reality of the situation. That's good roleplay material right there.

Where the problem starts is when Diana Kim interacts with other capsuleers. An extremely abrasive, strongly opinionated character like Diana Kim doesn't react well to being told she's wrong and reacts even worse to being shown she's wrong. When people call Diana Kim out on the outrageous things she says, she tends to react with either flat denial or insults - accusations of treason if the relevant character is Caldari, "dirty jaijii" etc. if they aren't. Even at her most polite she isn't willing to consider other people's points of views. This leads to an increasingly limited amount of interaction people who don't agree with her can actually engage in without her either insulting or ignoring them. This eventually leads them to either insult her or ignore her, which in turn further limits the people she can meaningfully interact with.

There is, again, nothing wrong with this in and of itself.

So we get to a point where, eventually, Diana Kim's behaviour becomes so abrasive and insufferable that, in-character, people are no longer willing to tolerate it. Remember that in-universe The Summit is an actual communications channel run by actual capsuleers, and they have feelings and limited patience just like real human beings do. In at least one instance, eventually one the moderators, in-character, got so tired of being called names by Kim that they lodged a ban. Now, again, there's nothing specifically wrong with this.

The problem comes when you, Lithium Flower, the player, become unable to separate Diana Kim's behaviour and ego from your own.

I have noticed, in certain ways, that you act a lot like your in-game avatar. I'm not going to guilt-trip you for this because I do the same. Andreus Ixiris is almost an extension and exaggeration of my own personality to the extent where if this were a slightly less serious setting he'd probably have at least some awareness of it. I have in the past had - and, as a matter of fact still do have - trouble distancing myself from the challenges to Andreus' ego. Emotional investment in your character is not neccessarily a bad thing - in fact, I think some amount of emotional investment in your character is neccessary. However, at this point, your investment in your character is leading to behaviour that is damaging your ability to interact with the roleplay community (i.e. it's getting you banned from The Summit and OOC). Either you have to step back from your character and not take attacks against them so personally, or you need to tone down your character's behaviour and make them more reasonable.

Honestly at this point I think you may have gone as far as you can go with Diana Kim's current line of behaviour. It might be time to have her reconsider her life.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #31 on: 30 May 2014, 19:45 »

Well said.
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orange

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #32 on: 30 May 2014, 21:16 »

What would you do if someone was talking about you (presumably in a negative light) in a semi-public forum in which you were banned?  Sit on your hands and just accept that any potential first impressions with others you might engage are already tainted by what another individual (who is essentially your enemy) says?

If it's IC, who gives a crap?

Plenty of people care.  If only one side of a story is ever presented, it becomes the truth.

If your character/corporation is constantly disparaged, its actions placed in a negative light, in a semi-public, large attendance forum by your IC enemy in which potential recruits, potential allies take part and you have no opportunity to respond, you have likely lost those potential recruits or potential allies - the truth becomes what your IC enemy declares it to be.

There isn't much of a difference between IC/OOC when you get down to it.

In addition, alts are agents/jackclones/etc of mains, but we still tend to associate the characters with a person behind the keyboard.  If a newish, relatively unknown character suddenly started defending a banned main in the Summit, what would happen?  The character would likely be banned as an alt of the banned main (whether or not it is).
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #33 on: 30 May 2014, 22:12 »

What would you do if someone was talking about you (presumably in a negative light) in a semi-public forum in which you were banned?  Sit on your hands and just accept that any potential first impressions with others you might engage are already tainted by what another individual (who is essentially your enemy) says?

If it's IC, who gives a crap?

Plenty of people care.  If only one side of a story is ever presented, it becomes the truth.

If your character/corporation is constantly disparaged, its actions placed in a negative light, in a semi-public, large attendance forum by your IC enemy in which potential recruits, potential allies take part and you have no opportunity to respond, you have likely lost those potential recruits or potential allies - the truth becomes what your IC enemy declares it to be.

Characters should care about it, IC. Players, however, should not care, because it's RP, it's fiction, and there's nothing wrong with having IC enemies or being attacked ICly. The only time a player should care is if the attacks are OOC motivated and made to be intentionally hurtful on an OOC level rather than an IC one. But IC attacks against an IC character are not something to get up in arms OOC about.

The player can be justifiably mad about the ban (because it's preventing them from participating in the RP), but not about the fact that other characters might be saying bad things IC about their character.

Quote
There isn't much of a difference between IC/OOC when you get down to it.

If there isn't, then that's a failure to uphold proper IC/OOC separation. Not upholding that is a bad thing.

Quote
In addition, alts are agents/jackclones/etc of mains, but we still tend to associate the characters with a person behind the keyboard.  If a newish, relatively unknown character suddenly started defending a banned main in the Summit, what would happen?  The character would likely be banned as an alt of the banned main (whether or not it is).

Which would be nonsense. If a character is going to be banned from an IC RP channel it should be on their own merits, not based on the player behind the character.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #34 on: 31 May 2014, 01:15 »

Actually the only time you end up permabanned on all characters is exactly when you are an awful human being IRL.  Basically, if you get yourself perma'd from OOC you can expect to get yourself perma'd from all of the IC channels associated with it as well because it means that you have done something to make the majority of the mods go "It is legitimately better to not have this player around".
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Lithium Flower

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #35 on: 31 May 2014, 02:16 »

Actually the only time you end up permabanned on all characters is exactly when you are an awful human being IRL.  Basically, if you get yourself perma'd from OOC you can expect to get yourself perma'd from all of the IC channels associated with it as well because it means that you have done something to make the majority of the mods go "It is legitimately better to not have this player around".
This is basically an insult, and simply misses what exactly character said wrong again.

Being "awful IRL", okay, what was said in OOC then? I mean, something terrible terrible for ban? Do you have facts, maybe show us?
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Milo Caman

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #36 on: 31 May 2014, 02:45 »

I'm kind of out of the loop in terms of what may or may not have actually happened in the Summit to get Diana banned, bit I do feel that some of the language coming from all sides here is unnecessarily antagonistic. We've not reached ad hominem yet, but we're certainly getting there.

I've seen situations like this before, and the end result is usually someone leaving the RP community jaded and bitter (More so, at any rate). Can we please start being a tad nicer to each other OOC before we cause this already small community to shrink even further?  :|
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #37 on: 31 May 2014, 05:18 »

I'm kind of out of the loop in terms of what may or may not have actually happened in the Summit to get Diana banned, bit I do feel that some of the language coming from all sides here is unnecessarily antagonistic. We've not reached ad hominem yet, but we're certainly getting there.

I've seen situations like this before, and the end result is usually someone leaving the RP community jaded and bitter (More so, at any rate). Can we please start being a tad nicer to each other OOC before we cause this already small community to shrink even further?  :|

No we cannot. Welcome to EVE.
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Tiberious Thessalonia

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #38 on: 31 May 2014, 06:28 »

Actually the only time you end up permabanned on all characters is exactly when you are an awful human being IRL.  Basically, if you get yourself perma'd from OOC you can expect to get yourself perma'd from all of the IC channels associated with it as well because it means that you have done something to make the majority of the mods go "It is legitimately better to not have this player around".
This is basically an insult, and simply misses what exactly character said wrong again.

Being "awful IRL", okay, what was said in OOC then? I mean, something terrible terrible for ban? Do you have facts, maybe show us?
'
In your case it's certainly less serious than, say, "Stalking someone OOC" which is something that got someone banned much much faster than you were.  In your case it was simply "You have this awful tendency to create drama" and you spent the vast majority of your time either doing things that would get you banned for a short period of time and then every time it happened you would immediately start antagonizing and sending evemails all over the place, and when 90% of the evemails are about you or are from you, it becomes pretty clear where the common denominator is and where the problem lies.

You want to be unbanned, you're going to need to talk to Graelyn, but good luck with that because you pushed so hard you made him sick of having to deal with you.

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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #39 on: 31 May 2014, 06:41 »

I'm kind of out of the loop in terms of what may or may not have actually happened in the Summit to get Diana banned, bit I do feel that some of the language coming from all sides here is unnecessarily antagonistic. We've not reached ad hominem yet, but we're certainly getting there.

I've seen situations like this before, and the end result is usually someone leaving the RP community jaded and bitter (More so, at any rate). Can we please start being a tad nicer to each other OOC before we cause this already small community to shrink even further?  :|

I don't think I have, but if I've crossed the line, I apologize.

Andreus Ixiris

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #40 on: 31 May 2014, 07:16 »

Maybe I wasn't succinct enough in my last post.

The core of the problem lies in the fact that Diana Kim is a horrible person who treats almost everyone with contemptuous disrespect. This isn't neccessarily a problem in and of itself, but it leads people to react poorly towards her. When she steps up her game in response, this inevitably leads people - moderators included - to eventually get tired of dealing with her. This leads to her getting ostracised or banned from social gatherings. You, as a player, then begin taking offence to this, and start acting in the same way out of character. This inevitably leads to people becoming tired of dealing with you.

My honest suggestion at this point? If you cannot seperate the ego of Diana Kim from your own ego, have Diana Kim stop hating the Federation. No, I'm not kidding: actually have her experience a change of heart and apologise for the way in which she's behaved towards everyone.
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Desiderya

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #41 on: 31 May 2014, 07:47 »

Public <-> Private
There's the difference. Not everything you say, especially how it is said, is working in a public setting. Doesn't matter if you're right or not. Especially not if you're a bit far out like DK, when it comes to her world view. (This is the point where you technically can't blame the character, but supposedly there's someone with a working pair of lobes behind the keyboard steering it).
So, interaction creates drama. Drama can be good. 98.977% of the Drama that is good is happening in a private setting, later discussed/dribbling into public ones. Also 85.776% of the drama that is good is actually creating content (pewpew?), character development or moves at least a plotline forwards. I dare say we've seen neither of that, or at least in homeopathic doses (literally nothing, drowned in a lot of alcohol).


edit: It's also representative how this thread is named and what the three core theses of it are when you think about self-reflection.
« Last Edit: 31 May 2014, 07:52 by Desiderya »
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kalaratiri

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #42 on: 31 May 2014, 08:12 »

So, interaction creates drama. Drama can be good. 98.977% of the Drama that is good is happening in a private setting, later discussed/dribbling into public ones. Also 85.776% of the drama that is good is actually creating content (pewpew?), character development or moves at least a plotline forwards.

100% of stastics on the internet are made up.

I'm kind of out of the loop in terms of what may or may not have actually happened in the Summit to get Diana banned, bit I do feel that some of the language coming from all sides here is unnecessarily antagonistic. We've not reached ad hominem yet, but we're certainly getting there.

I've seen situations like this before, and the end result is usually someone leaving the RP community jaded and bitter (More so, at any rate). Can we please start being a tad nicer to each other OOC before we cause this already small community to shrink even further?  :|

No we cannot. Welcome to EVE.

Democracy in action \o/

Semi-seriously:

Obviously I am not currently active in-game so have no direct input into the mentioned situation. However, as someone who is in semi-to-regular contact with at least three of the Summit mods, more on occasion, I have noticed that their problems always seem to stem from a certain kind of person. It's always people who think they're doing nothing wrong and are positively outraged to be told they are out of line. This then leads to the development of a victim complex, and inevitably results in the aggrieved party mail spamming the mods until Graelyn smacks them with a ban. I've seen this cycle repeat with at least three people I can bring to mind immediately, and probably more if I think about it.

I think CCP give some pretty good advice for those who get modded: htfu.

And while you're htfu'ing, think about what you did wrong and how you might be able to take some of the perfectly reasonable advice from those moderators such as Kat who are actually willing to help people who get modded rather than just ignoring them till they go away.


/rant.
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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #43 on: 31 May 2014, 08:45 »

tl;dr for those late to thread

Diana Kim:


Majority of Backstage:


Me:
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Lithium Flower

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Re: Problems in summit moderation
« Reply #44 on: 31 May 2014, 08:52 »

Maybe I wasn't succinct enough in my last post.

The core of the problem lies in the fact that Diana Kim is a horrible person who treats almost everyone with contemptuous disrespect.
And this is obvious lie about the character.
Diana Kim is rather respectful and polite character, but harsh and ruthless to her enemies. To make easier her RP, for her (and for couple others) I have charts with characters, towards whom she is harsh. For Diana personally, there are two lists: first list,  for those who were continuously trolling and insulting her without reason. She tends to avoid these peoples, don't pay attention to their words, and only against them she is allowed sometimes to make first insults, since they were doing it multiple times earlier. Luckily - this list is incredibly short and getting into it rather hard.
Second list is rather large - it is obvious enemies (all members of FDU/TDF) and characters, who has shown hostile behaviour - insults of her out of nothing, minor trolling, insults of Tibus Heth (not constant, though, just single), those, who she just considers enemies and prefers to shoot at than talk with. It is rather easy to get into this list, and easy to get out :D To this peoples Diana simply doesn't pay proper respect and maintains very cold and harsh stance. She is allowed to insult them only when they insult her. She might show respect to them, but they should work rather hard for this  :)

For all other peoples, she is polite and respectful, and you can easily see it for yourself, if you peek into "Intergalactic Summit" and just hear how she speaks with others. Of course, just hear, don't try to talk with her. You should know why.
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