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[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Christ's sake.

I said what I said because I thought you had actually read my posts and thought about their content, Casiella.

For additional clarity:

-The channel's first incarnation as a setting, as far as I know, was a big room something like a lecture hall. People spoke there for formal diplomatic presentations and various capsuleer affairs. Some events were arranged there. Over time, it has somewhat drifted away from that, but not really very far in the eyes of its founder.

The channel's pedigree and purpose fit the event.

People wanted it there. Not just me.

It's a general purpose roleplay event in relation to everything current-dev-events.

You don't like that? Fine.
You don't see it that way? Fine.
You claim about a dozen voices is all the consensus you need? Fine.

There's a button in your interface, channels window, for making your own place. Maybe people who adhere to your idea of what is reasonable can be convinced to hang there, then.

I certainly don't think you're being reasonable.

[Silver Night]

I don't recall that being the case, and I was there at the time.

It's possible I don't recall correctly. Would be good if we could get ahold of Gaven and resolve this disparity in recollection.

[Arvo Katsuya]

I apologize upfront if you took my post as an attack on you, but I was simply talking about where this is all happening. Granted compared to many other players here I am a newer player, with less knowledge of all the politics and workings that go on around here, but my perception of the The Summit was always a sort of VR extension of the IGS, in that its a neutral medium for anyone to voice themselves without being censored barred of being out-of-character or the usual obnoxiousness. I wasn't around when it was a lecture hall before. When I simply saw from here that someone gotten muted/banned for the faction they're part of, I simply had to jump in and voice my opinion of that. There is never a time on the IGS, that during a certain period, everyone from a certain alliance or faction has to look the other way while the other people discuss things. It sounds silly.

I understand how crazy that first conferance was, as I was there watching and sticking around to keep a log of the event, and is commendable for hosting something for that length of time for everyone. I would hope more people would step up and take after that. I at least acknowledge that.

I admit jumping into this thread like everyone else was a bit impulsive on my behalf. However, I never would say 'Fuck you, Ashar.' Unless of course, you request it.  

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

I don't recall that being the case, and I was there at the time.

It's possible I don't recall correctly. Would be good if we could get ahold of Gaven and resolve this disparity in recollection.

Heh.

My strongest piece of evidence for this aside from memory and so forth, I think, is a little stack of comics people drew to lampoon the involvement of some early loudmouths like Archbishop and Intaki Union which displayed them sitting at what looked like delegate's tables in the UN.

Anyway, onward. Forever upward.

I apologize upfront if you took my post as an attack on you, but I was simply talking about where this is all happening. Granted compared to many other players here I am a newer player, with less knowledge of all the politics and workings that go on around here, but my perception of the The Summit was always a sort of VR extension of the IGS, in that its a neutral medium for anyone to voice themselves without being censored barred of being out-of-character or the usual obnoxiousness. I wasn't around when it was a lecture hall before. When I simply saw from here that someone gotten muted/banned for the faction they're part of, I simply had to jump in and voice my opinion of that. There is never a time on the IGS, that during a certain period, everyone from a certain alliance or faction has to look the other way while the other people discuss things. It sounds silly.

I understand how crazy that first conferance was, as I was there watching and sticking around to keep a log of the event, and is commendable for hosting something for that length of time for everyone. I would hope more people would step up and take after that. I at least acknowledge that.

I admit jumping into this thread like everyone else was a bit impulsive on my behalf. However, I never would say 'Fuck you, Ashar.' Unless of course, you request it.  ;)

'Kay. You are forgiven :P

For the record, a lot of people lament the fact that there's very little moderation of any useful kind on the IGS.

When someone is being a fuckhat, the only recourse is to petition en masse for a forum ban. Is that a forum as it should be in your eyes?

A lot of the circumstances of how things are currently are either arbitrary, or left up to the vagaries of the legal circumstances, developer intentions, moderator load balancing, and how few percent of EVE's playerbase are active roleplayers on the forums.

We're not hard to marginalize. Devs take the path of least resistance in community relations quite a bit.

I submit to you that this is not an ideal thing.

[Lillith Blackheart]

First things first:

And last I heard, a whole goddamn allianced had pledged to support you. A couple dozen!?

Just because Cry Havoc (I think) and Archaeus of Blood pledged support doesn't mean they've actually done anything yet. Remember that.


Second things not quite so first:

People. Slow down a bit. This thread was brought forth to bring up a discussion that I saw as a trend with a couple of actions that showed a precedent for something.

I've tried very hard to reiterate numerous times that this is not a witch hunt. We are not going after people, because nothing technically wrong has actually happened. I even took the time to redact the individual in question that put on the month-long mute that I will stress again was removed a few minutes later (before the thread started even) (and also wasn't Ashar, mind you) specifically so people wouldn't start tar and feathering, and when approached by Ashar made it absolutely clear that I wasn't going to say who it was unless it was agreed they wouldn't catch any flak for it.

Because nothing has been done that was wrong.

This is not a witch hunt -- get off Ashar's back. He shouldn't be on the defensive here, like he has been, this was entirely intended as primarily a discussion about what the Summit is and whether or not certain current trends are good or bad or neither.

I'm not exactly certain where my intention went dreadfully awry, but I'm going to suggest it has to do with the intertubes.

Anyway, I am digressing a bit.

Please, carry on, but let's back off on the pitchforks a bit, shall we?

[Havohej]

and also, you're bitterly complaining

I haven't complained about anything; my opinion on this whole business is neutral.  I do think you're taking a pretty innocent comment (the one Soter made) together with the rest of this topic way too personally and bitterly complaining yourself, though, and could probably calm down?

Lillith made a thread about whether people think it's good for the RP community as a whole to ban someone from certain types of IC channel, especially general community channels like the Summit, based on their chosen RP faction.  Why don't we go back to having a thread about that instead of an "Ashar must defend himself against the masses" thread.  Because it didn't start out as any kind of witch hunt.  The idea that something being discussed has only happened once in recent memory and that one time was only done by one person doesn't make the whole discussion an attack on that one person.

I'd quote stuff Lillith said in the post right before this one, but I'd be quoting like 90% of it so I might as well just point to it.

[Tomahawk Bliss]

Well it depends on the channel ownership.  Pie had an ic channel and the block the opposition as a proper IC responce.  If the summit is for the lawful empires then lawless pirates should be removed, if the summit is not. Then it shouldn't be.   I don't actually know what the IC purpose if the summit is.

However I strongly disagree with using the OOC argument to discredit an IC boot/ban.  RP should have consequences, I'm now blocked from pie's IC channel and that is correct.

Again, only if the summit is pro-the empires under concord.


Also bring block from the Summit in no way kills anyones ability to rp.  Igs, eve mails, personal chats, local, other popular channels...dozen other ways interactions can be made to happen.  I rarely use the summit myself, very little substance occures.  It's more like a chat room bar/pub .  That and there are so many alts.

[Hamish Grayson]

It's getting to the point were we have way to many channels as it is.  Decentralization is important but sheesh adding another channel just for this conference would have been approaching ridiculousness.    The summit was a good choice because it's name is well known.  As far as I know all the Sansha faction can still use the channel they were just muted for derailing the planning process.   Which is fine, attacking the conference in that way is cool, but don't be surprised when the moderators chose to counter-attack with a 10 minute long mute.

Now that being I feel like shit for banning Ghost Hunter from the College because I consider him one of the places regulars and it was never intended to be an intel channel, but really if people aren't going to use for that because he's in there then I have to remove him.
 

[The Cosmopolite]

My outlook on this discussion is that it basically has to be considered as an IC question.

The Summit is an IC channel. IC it was founded as a neutral discussion venue with a 'CRC Auxiliary' which operated to maintain that neutrality and stop real disruption (ie. people doing OOC stuff in there or going totally beyond the pale with a thin veneer of IC on top of it.)

The name CRC Auxiliary in itself gives you an indication of intent, as does 'The Summit'. It was conceived as nothing less than an in-game channel equivalent to IGS.

As such, the core IC attribute of the channel was its utter and total neutrality.

Everyone could go there, their opinions could be heard, they could interact IC with others of any kind and any stripe.

That's the basic facts.

What's happened now is that the essential IC neutrality of the venue has been compromised.

That's the IC fact.

People can say that creating a specific channel for the conference would be ridiculous and they are entitled to that opinion. But I'm not sure why it would be ridiculous. It would be a temporary channel.

The alternative was to use an existing channel and I am inclined to feel that this could have happened at many other non-neutral IC venues. It could have happened in an IC bar or club where it would be reasonable for controls to exist and not distort the long-term function of the bar or club.

Where it happened was 'The Summit' and by happening there, and by IC unreasonable measures by the IC standards of the venue being taken against IC dissenting voices - indeed, for dissent to be recast as 'disruption' IC, it has become compromised IC.

How people deal with that is ultimately for them and is primarily an IC question.

I just think that it is rather sad. It was the one IC channel everyone regarded as impeccably neutral.

That's gone now. And when that goes it rarely comes back.

I would echo the view that nothing has been done wrong OOC. It's all entirely legitimate RP.

I just don't think the IC consequences of it are escapable.

Cosmo

[lallara zhuul]

Well if you go IC then its alright.

IC, The Summit has never been neutral, there is filthy heathens in there.

It's all about perspective.

If one event with a purpose 'taints' the channel then suit yourself.

There has been plenty of events in the channels history where different factions have stood on their soap boxes in the same channel with their enemies and they have asked the moderators of that channel to moderate the event so that there would not be bias.

[Arvo Katsuya]

Perhaps a compromise: in normal times, it retains its neutrality. During CCP sanctioned events that have many involved, it shifts to cater that purpose. Considering that is what is being done now, only that explanation would need to be mentioned.

[Havohej]

I haven't complained about anything; my opinion on this whole business is neutral.  I do think you're taking a pretty innocent comment (the one Soter made) together with the rest of this topic way too personally and bitterly complaining yourself, though, and could probably calm down?

Eh. The 'you' in the comments you're referencing wasn't meant to be you individually, and neither was the 'I.'

But I am using it to mean you and me individually now when responding to your post.

My mistake then; sorry for the misunderstanding :)

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

My mistake then; sorry for the misunderstanding

No worries. I'll try to reel in the self-assertion a bit.

[The Cosmopolite]

Well if you go IC then its alright.

IC, The Summit has never been neutral, there is filthy heathens in there.

It's all about perspective.

If one event with a purpose 'taints' the channel then suit yourself.

There has been plenty of events in the channels history where different factions have stood on their soap boxes in the same channel with their enemies and they have asked the moderators of that channel to moderate the event so that there would not be bias.

If you want to take the position it has never been neutral IC then that's fair enough. I don't myself think there has been an event in the past in The Summit where members of a particular faction were silenced for belonging to that faction.

That's the IC development that I think fatally undercuts any IC sense that the venue exists for discussion and, indeed, events held in a neutral setting.

It is indeed a 'taint' IC. OOC, I wouldn't care to venture an opinion. It's really up to people what direction they want to take an IC channel in.

Cosmo

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

I don't myself think there has been an event in the past in The Summit where members of a particular faction were silenced for belonging to that faction.

Hasn't been one up to the present, or in the present, either.

Re-read the thread.