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[Tiberious Thessalonia]

PIE declared war on us, paid the bills for three months, and we only saw them once.

That time, it was a fleet headed by Mitara.

I am very, very glad that Mitara is now in charge.

[Laerise [PIE]]

In PIE's case, it's more a reference to how the corp basically came across as being in a coma aside from IGS posting until Mitara took over.

Personal experience here: in a year and a half of screwing around in FW space as a pirate, I saw PIE pilots in space maybe a handful of times. I was down that way regularly, several times a week at all hours of the day and night (because lawl college sleep schedules). Maybe it's an outlier, like having only been jammed by ECM drones a grand total of twice (no joke) in two years of piracy, but when you go down to the warzone day in and day out, and never see people from a corp when you know full well they're supposed to be operating in that area, what else are you supposed to think?

And no, there isn't anything shameful about blueballing an opponent. In fact it's the best tactic imo, because the ones seeking tears end up being the ones whose tears fill the jars instead.

Archbishop was a poor example for Sakura to use, I'll give you that, but that doesn't do much to dismiss the reputation PIE accumulated among some groups as never undocking and rarely doing little more than IGS-warrioring for a while. The fact that PIE was largely an insular group rarely interacting with other parts of the RP community for much of that time didn't do much to help either. I remember when seeing a PIE member in an RP channel, whether it was the Summit, OOC, or one of the non-pirate bars or establishments, was as rare as an Alliance Tournament prize ship.

I've had enough fun RP with members of PIE (well, *I* think it was fun) that I vastly prefer this state of things where the corp is less insular and actually sticks its head out of the cave to ask a neighbor what the weather's like.

Err.. either you are blind or you're willfully ignoring our rather presentable battleclinic stats of that time and the exemplary service PIE did to the empire, which culminated in us getting the most medals for the reclamation of Kourmonen.

Veshta and Merd were regularly top killers in Amarr Militia, Condor, Mitara and I were busy organising a rather disjointed militia and leading fleet op's, our line members were plexing like crazy... 


Edit: Tiberious, from what battleclinic tells me you're american - of course you'd run into Mitty he's american too. 

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Morwen, Tiberious, in addition to what Laerise said:

I think that Sakura didn't only use a poor example, I think she also used poor logic in equating (perceived) inactivity in the warzone with 'not undocking'. 'Not undocking' is usually employed implicating that the other person could undock, but chooses not to, and is basically employed to imply cowardice on part of the one not undocking.

It's quite trivial that it is hard to get into contact with people in game that are not in the game anymore. So, if she tries to get into contact with PIE through contacting people that aren't in game anymore and fails in achieving contacting PIE, that's not a result of PIE being inactive, but, frankly, of her being apparently unable to see how little sense her approach to contacting PIE makes. A more intelligent approach is to try to get into contact with those PIE pilots that are active.

Having said this, there's a difference between 'not undocking' and 'not being able to undock' or 'not being noticed to undock'. So, when PIE declares war on some toasters it might have any range of reasons beyond 'not undocking'. I know, if you get a wardec, you expect the opponent to show up, but really, it can happen that you declare a war and your players simply don't have much time to show up, especially if different time zones are involved and they'd have to get up at 3 am to catch the opponent. Maybe you notice that even only after war is declared.

One could easily shift the argument around, Tibs:

"PIE declared war on you toasters and even payed the bills for three month, still they saw you just once in all that time.  It shows, those Sansha do 'not undock'."

I think it boils down to what Katrina already said:

Now that the thread is split, I'll point out that it is something of a meme for people to point out that others 'don't undock'. There are a few specific cases when an organization actually purposefully decides to not undock for one reason or another, but more often than not... people just claim that 'people don't undock' because they can't get the fights they prefer out of said targets.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Man, the day that we are obligated to go out and bring fights to our enemies every time they request one via wardec is the day that we have utterly lost control of our own RP destiny.

We didn't ask for the war.  We were under no obligation to pick up and head into FW Amarr space to go fight it.  We were very much the defender in that case.

As I said, I am glad the person who actually did prosecute that war is in charge now.

[Silas Vitalia]

If PIE has an IC reputation for 'not undocking' then that's an IC PR issue they should be addressing (if they want or choose to). 

PIE has been losing the IC "PR war" for years, I think a lot of us would like to see them more active with events and persecuting the enemies of the Empire.

Just because you guys actually do undock regularly to do FW pvp doesn't mean that IC reputation will change.  Convince us IC that things are different.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Also, Lae, I am Canadian, thank you very much. 

[Silas Vitalia]

I'll reiterate that your in game activities can often have NOTHING to do with IC opinions of an organization's reputation, heft, or anything else in the court of IC public opinion. 

Winning hearts and minds IC, or respect IC, is a PR game and how you present yourselves and manipulate the court of public opinion IC.

[Samira Kernher]

Silas, most of the times I've seen it brought up has been OOC, not IC.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Man, the day that we are obligated to go out and bring fights to our enemies every time they request one via wardec is the day that we have utterly lost control of our own RP destiny.

We didn't ask for the war.  We were under no obligation to pick up and head into FW Amarr space to go fight it.  We were very much the defender in that case.

As I said, I am glad the person who actually did prosecute that war is in charge now.

You forget, Tib, that nor is the one declaring war under any obligation to provide fights to those he declared on. vOv It goes both ways.

[Louella Dougans]

Now that the thread is split, I'll point out that it is something of a meme for people to point out that others 'don't undock'. There are a few specific cases when an organization actually purposefully decides to not undock for one reason or another, but more often than not... people just claim that 'people don't undock' because they can't get the fights they prefer out of said targets

it's used as a propaganda mechanism. usually fairly badly.

what often happens is:

A and B disagree about something on say, the IGS.

A makes a point that B is unable to counter.

B then loudly and repeatedly, across both IC and OOC venues declares that A is inconsequential, A "doesn't matter",  that B could "easily wardec and crush them", but of course "A doesn't undock", so B then refuses to answer the points made by A on the IGS. Also often accompanied by wild accusations that A has some kind of OOC grudge or hidden agenda against B.

Usually this is done when A isn't online.

Echo chamber, circlejerk, groupthink, and so on, in an attempt to exclude A from further RP interactions with not only B, but other entities too.


amusingly I've seen someone that hired a high-sec based mercenary group to attack a npcnullsec based group claim that the people in null "don't undock".

lol.

It's silly really.

[Morwen Lagann]

Man, the day that we are obligated to go out and bring fights to our enemies every time they request one via wardec is the day that we have utterly lost control of our own RP destiny.

We didn't ask for the war.  We were under no obligation to pick up and head into FW Amarr space to go fight it.  We were very much the defender in that case.

As I said, I am glad the person who actually did prosecute that war is in charge now.

You forget, Tib, that nor is the one declaring war under any obligation to provide fights to those he declared on. vOv It goes both ways.

No, they're not obligated to provide fights. Neither side is.

But wardeccing someone, and then doing nothing, has a side effect of making the aggressor look pretty dumb imo, especially if the defender gets up and ready to fight, and gives the defender a huge amount of ammunition to use in a PR war. Especially if they keep paying the bills for it for more than the first week.

[Sepherim]

Silas, most of the times I've seen it brought up has been OOC, not IC.

This. For example, the first post in this thread is a good show of this: OOC forum, non-docking attack.

It's not a IC PR issue, as it's used as an OOC weapon. Louella has just showed it clearly in her example. OOC weapons can be either fought OOCly or just ignored. Both have effects, and sometimes just "lowering" to the other sides arms is accepting to be as pitiful as they are.

And, before anyone feels affected for those words, they are not meant for anyone that has posted here, or anyone in particular that hasn't. It's just a general assumption.

You forget, Tib, that nor is the one declaring war under any obligation to provide fights to those he declared on. vOv It goes both ways.

To expand on this, wardecs can be declared for many reasons beyond "going to keep the other's ass". Specially in RP corps, it can be a way to show disagreement, a way to make a point, a PR claim, etc. To use the example of PIE deccing Tiberius' corp and not attacking, it could be a way of proving "if you come to Amarr space, we have the methods to defend it". Not saying that was the reason, I wasn't there, just pointing a different possibility.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

We were in Amarr space.  We waited.  We saw Mittara.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

Alright people, in relation to PIE, let's just lay it all out on the table. Here are the reasons why PIE has said 'reputation' currently and is now stuggling to lay it aside.

1.) PIE, in ye olde days before the vast majority of the current players even started, used to be a powerhouse. They were the founding corp of CVA, led the legendary Golden Fleets that were so sexy even their enemies liked to see them, and were all-around a stong catalyst for conflict and fun. This is a huge reputation to live up to.

2.) PIE is a shadow of its former self, having gone through a time of heavy leadership inactivity and low pilot count. During this time people expecting PIE to be on field with 20+ Navy Apocs were instead met with one or two cruisers or frigs if they were on at the right time and at the right place. This opened up PIE's reputation to come under attack, and a lot of people joined in on the bandwagon because it was easy and/or they had a vested IC interest in knocking PIE down a notch.

3.) PIE is only just now beginning to recover, but the dark times still linger. Almost all of the old guard of PIE is gone or only semi-active and now we're just a regular old RP corp with okayish numbers. We have a good amount of active members now, but we still are short on experienced PvP'ers, especially on the US and AU TZ's. Hence in some ways the 'inactive' comment still applies. I'm struggling to find wingmates from within the corp or even the alliance, but at the same time the Euros are enjoying nice training ops and small-scale roams of 4-7 members. Again, things are just now starting to turn around in visible ways, so people still assume we're never in space. That's fine, we have to earn our reputation back, but these things take time. And more recruitment, tbh.

Chill out people, we'll get to killing you eventually.

Now, as for the overall topic, 'failing to undock' is usually a symptom of something else besides cowardice and/or not giving a fuck. Usually it just indicates a simple lack of numbers at the time. Nobody is going to undock for a crap fight, plain and simple.

[kalaratiri]

I suffer from the opposite problem. I always undock. My ship's average life expectancy is short even for eve. While often great fun, this is also a great drain on my wallet, so I fully understand the people who don't want to undock into fights they can't win. Gets expensive quickly