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Author Topic: "Space Lesbians"  (Read 28558 times)

Davlos

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #105 on: 09 Mar 2013, 10:21 »

I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.
This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture.  That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.

"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
* Mitara Newelle is doing her part!!!!

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac

I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D

Now you know what kind of corny shit I have to deal with in my own country. -_-
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Vincent Pryce

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #106 on: 09 Mar 2013, 11:33 »

I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.
This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture.  That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.

"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
* Mitara Newelle is doing her part!!!!

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac

I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D

Now you know what kind of corny shit I have to deal with in my own country. -_-

I feel your pain bro.

PS. Quote Pyramid FTW
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Laerise [PIE]

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #107 on: 09 Mar 2013, 14:41 »

I think that Amarrian culture frowns on any display of sexuality in public. Marriage isn't the expression of lasting love or a romantic relationship, imho, but socially the role of it is ensuring the continuation of a family line and building alliances. What happens behind closed doors matters little to that, I think.
This is what I've been 'taught' by those Amarr before me, and seems perfectly reasonable to me given the culture.  That's not to say love doesn't enter into a marriage, but there is certainly more to it than that. As far as homosexuality goes, again, what happens behind closed doors stays there, it's all about appearances and decorum in public.

"Look, what you get up to for fun in your spare time is your own business, but you had -better- be pumping out the children and they had -better- be legitimate, kapische?"
* Mitara Newelle is doing her part!!!!

:D

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jxU89x78ac

I could totally see this song play on Caldari State tv :D :D :D

Now you know what kind of corny shit I have to deal with in my own country. -_-

I feel your pain bro.

PS. Quote Pyramid FTW

If you think you have it bad check this out :D
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Jade Constantine

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #108 on: 12 Mar 2013, 09:19 »

I was originally going to post this anonymously, but decided against it. I hope everyone can stay respectful and not make personal attacks and try to stay away from 'urdoinitrong' comments...

"Space Lesbians"

We use the term a lot, most of us. Some of us preface our characters by defining whether we are one or not. Some of us jokingly or seriously prod at other characters using the term. Others make judgments about RP based on it, or imply judgments. The word has started to become synonymous with role-play that isn’t serious or as worthwhile as heterosexual or male/male relationships.

But what is a Space Lesbian? Is it simply any character changed in homosexual role-play between two females? Is it the aforementioned type of character but played by a male in RL? Is it suggesting that lesbians in EVE should only be played by actual females? Is it a character whose purpose is primarily sexual? Does it suggest promiscuity?  Does it mean the player is sexually insecure? Is being a space lesbian ‘doinitrong’?

In a way I think the term space lesbian is part of the neo Puritanism and implicit demand for conformity that has come to dominate the game in recent years. Powerful external groups have decided that eve is a terrible roleplaying game and its only acceptable to play in certain ways (tear harvesting, griefing, mockery, deprecating background etc etc) spaceships became Internet spaceships, villainy and honour became e-villainy and e-honour and gender roleplay became space lesbianism. Lets be realistic, without men playing female characters the game universe would look more a prison shower block party, but hetro men being hetro men its easier to roleplay attraction and sex with another female avatar than it is to portray the same towards a male avatar.

95% of players are male.
50% of the avatars
Of those 47.5% of men playing female avatars most are hetro so find it easier to portray attraction to another female avatar.

Is not rocket science simply human nature and preference.

But neo-Puritanism mingled with the deprecation of eve as any kind of roleplay game holds this evident human nature up to mockery and disparagement because that's what all the cool kids are doing. How dare anyone play a character of a different gender, how silly is that? These people would love to see eve as a universe more accurately reflecting ooc gender and would love to mock the prison yard butt-pirate imagery if it ever came to pass. Would mark a critical stage in the devolution of eve the rpg towards simplistic lord of the flies simulator with your enemies and victims filling the role of piggy on the island.

It is powerful though, I wonder myself how many existing characters would change sex and name if CCP delivered a cash payment system for such. I must admit I'd be tempted, for as much background and personality and history I have associated with Jade I must now consider that I don't see much continuing reason or motivation to play her as a female character in the game universe of eve online given cultural leanings and CCP's own apparent disdain for roleplay in their game world.

Quote
The problem with the term 'space lesbian' is that it's become so common and used in a derogatory way that some of us may not realize how offensive it can be. There are many female characters who are involved in serious and monogamous homosexual relationships in EVE played by people who put a lot of effort into their role-play. There are those who are gay or lesbian, or otherwise queer, in real life who could feel bothered by the comment. While it’s understandable that not everybody is accepting of homosexuality, those who are should be more careful when using the term.

Problem is that eve itself has been subsumed into a more mainstream North American young male gamer mindset where casual homophobia and abuse becomes the norm. We get the ostensibly "anarchistic" something awful style where everyone is free to say anything they want and since its on the Internet nothing matters its just an e-insult; freedom to offend, becoming a pretty conservative peer pressure driven drive to conformity, where sure you are free to offend, but if you don't offend the same targets everyone else is offending you'll be ostracised and risk becoming the next target. Absolute freedom quickly becomes absolute tyranny where the strong and the numerous dominate the weak and the minority. Gamer culture is becoming neo Puritanism where minorities are victims and hate figures and abuse is simply a code word for conformity.

I deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing shoulders with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.

Now it seems just like pick up gaming in any one of a hundred identikit online gaming clans. Aside from the griefing and mocking suicides; look how much of a sociopath I am! theme it's portraying these days, it doesn't feel much like Star Wars or the culture anymore - something wonderful and profoundly scifi has disappeared beneath the weight of prudish conformism that insists we ape only the deeds of the paragons and never depart from the norm.

Quote
In many societies, being homosexual can get you excluded from society, placed under judicial punishment, or worse. This isn’t reality. This isn’t a call for gay rights. This isn’t a cry for help. It is however a petition for those who share this role-play community to be careful instead of casually throwing the phrase around. There are players, friends of yours even, who play lesbians in EVE – and who might be offended. Let’s all try to be more accepting of other’s choices in role-play.

And in eve right now playing the game in the "wrong way" will get you mocked, derided, demeaned, bullied, marginalised and ultimately purged from the body politic of social norms - it's not that the prevailing ideology particularly hates queers and lesbians and transgendered alternative gender roled diversity. It's that they hate people who will not laugh and point and jeer alongside them with the mockery.

It's okay to be a space lesbian as long as you also take the piss out of other space lesbians, then you are some kind of transgendered Uncle Tom who still "gets it". Question the mockery and suggest its a symptom of parochial ignorance? Oh boy, guess who gets to be the next hate figure in the cooking pot!
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2013, 10:57 by Jade Constantine »
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Khloe

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #109 on: 12 Mar 2013, 09:29 »

It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.
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Jade Constantine

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #110 on: 12 Mar 2013, 09:34 »

It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.

Almost certainly the case.
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2013, 10:38 by Jade Constantine »
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Ciarente

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #111 on: 12 Mar 2013, 09:38 »

....stuff ...

Abso-fucking-lutely.  And it's not just in gamer culture anymore, either. Given how important the internet is these days to building social and cultural capital and engaging in political and community activism, the intimidation and harassment of women, queers, and others on the downside of privilege that has become commonplace online has real and significant consequences for individuals and societies.
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #112 on: 12 Mar 2013, 09:59 »

It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.

Almost certainly the case.

If that's the case, then the argument up there crushes down already:

Quote from: Jade Constantine
95% of players are male.
50% of the avatars
Of those 47.5% of men playing female avatars most are hetro so find it easier to portray attraction to another female avatar.

Is not rocket science simply human nature and preference.

Outside the RP community people rarely portray any sexual relationships or such anyway. To the vast majority of players EVE online is, and has been for quite a long time, if not from start, simply an MMO about internet spaceships. It really doesn't matter that roughly one half of the men have female avatars and are hetero, as they, mostly, wouldn't think of RPing anyway.

What matters is the RP Community of EVE. Spacelesbian is a term that - apparently, if we follow the claims in this thread - originated in the 'more tolerant EVE RP community'. Also, the EVE RP community should not depict the same ratios in regard to sexuality as the non-RP playerbase of EVE: If it is the 'safe haven' for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc., then one would expect an exceptionally high percentage of those in the rather small RP community of EVE.

Usually, if something "simple" is described as being "simply human nature and preferences" it's wrong, as human nature and preferences tend to be quite complex. The 'simple maths' up there don't hold up, really, given the prevalence of gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. in the RP community. There must be something else to it.

If there has been a change in the EVE community that swings against 'gender play' and such, it must have happened inside the RP community, then, to explain the '(being called) space lesbian' phenomenon.
« Last Edit: 12 Mar 2013, 10:01 by Nicoletta Mithra »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #113 on: 12 Mar 2013, 10:04 »

Quote
I deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.

All us weirdos are still around though, and we're still somewhat noisy in the community. I've definitely felt the environment you describe in the quote above being present, and I've only been playing since January of 08. If anything I feel like things have actually been improving a lot lately and the roleplay community has been growing pretty impressively.

I wouldn't be so quick to write us all off as having been subsumed into the mainstream. We all have our little pockets of the game, and in my case, I'm even pretty noisy on the forums with my opinions. EVE has always struck me as a very adult game played by and large by very mature people. While there might be trolls and assholes and idiots, overall the game community is rather friendly and understanding. I've never been harassed about my gender or sexuality, I've never really been harassed at all honestly. My community experience by and large has been almost entirely positive. Maybe I'm just being sheltered, and I'm not seeing the wider community, but overall what I've seen has looked pretty good to me.

The 'Space Lesbian' term is stupid, I think we can all agree its pretty dumb and its shitty to call people that. I don't think its a sign that the community is fundamentally broken, I think its a sign that we've acquired a few dumb memes. And Oh have we ever.
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Jade Constantine

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #114 on: 12 Mar 2013, 10:51 »

It makes you wonder if the EVE RP Community has become something of a safe haven for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. because the rest of the game community is so hostile to them. The EVE RP community may be cliquish and mercurial, but at least they are considerably more tolerant of differences.

Almost certainly the case.

If that's the case, then the argument up there crushes down already:

Quote from: Jade Constantine
95% of players are male.
50% of the avatars
Of those 47.5% of men playing female avatars most are hetro so find it easier to portray attraction to another female avatar.

Is not rocket science simply human nature and preference.

Outside the RP community people rarely portray any sexual relationships or such anyway. To the vast majority of players EVE online is, and has been for quite a long time, if not from start, simply an MMO about internet spaceships. It really doesn't matter that roughly one half of the men have female avatars and are hetero, as they, mostly, wouldn't think of RPing anyway.

What matters is the RP Community of EVE. Spacelesbian is a term that - apparently, if we follow the claims in this thread - originated in the 'more tolerant EVE RP community'. Also, the EVE RP community should not depict the same ratios in regard to sexuality as the non-RP playerbase of EVE: If it is the 'safe haven' for gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc., then one would expect an exceptionally high percentage of those in the rather small RP community of EVE.

Usually, if something "simple" is described as being "simply human nature and preferences" it's wrong, as human nature and preferences tend to be quite complex. The 'simple maths' up there don't hold up, really, given the prevalence of gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc. in the RP community. There must be something else to it.

If there has been a change in the EVE community that swings against 'gender play' and such, it must have happened inside the RP community, then, to explain the '(being called) space lesbian' phenomenon.

I would argue that the RP community (uses) adopted the "space lesbian" term under cultural influence from anti roleplay / mainstream gamer culture elsewhere in the community. The prefix "space" before lesbians is too similar to the prefix "Internet" before spaceships to be entirely coincidental. The fact that the RP community has anyone RPing anything to do with sex and sex through the mirror of virtual gender confusion makes it a target for the mockery and derision of the gamer mainstream and reactionary homophobia.

But the fact that a subculture is under threat from a larger mainstream does not prevent it from being a safe(r) haven. I live in Brighton in the UK, its one of the most liberal, laid back and accommodating places in Europe for gay and alternative lifestyles but guess what? People still get queer-bashed by reactionary elements and away day thugs looking for a thrill in their banal conformity.

For me its pretty simple, space lesbian is a term like Internet spaceships that is designed to mock a particular play style or preference and ensure a single worldview attains dominance in the mmo ecosystem. Men shouldn't sex up men wearing female avatars just as people shouldn't get annoyed when they get screwed over Internet spaceships ... That's the commandments from Eve's neo Puritanicals.

 
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Jade Constantine

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #115 on: 12 Mar 2013, 10:54 »

Quote
I deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.

All us weirdos are still around though, and we're still somewhat noisy in the community. I've definitely felt the environment you describe in the quote above being present, and I've only been playing since January of 08. If anything I feel like things have actually been improving a lot lately and the roleplay community has been growing pretty impressively.

I wouldn't be so quick to write us all off as having been subsumed into the mainstream. We all have our little pockets of the game, and in my case, I'm even pretty noisy on the forums with my opinions. EVE has always struck me as a very adult game played by and large by very mature people. While there might be trolls and assholes and idiots, overall the game community is rather friendly and understanding. I've never been harassed about my gender or sexuality, I've never really been harassed at all honestly. My community experience by and large has been almost entirely positive. Maybe I'm just being sheltered, and I'm not seeing the wider community, but overall what I've seen has looked pretty good to me.

The 'Space Lesbian' term is stupid, I think we can all agree its pretty dumb and its shitty to call people that. I don't think its a sign that the community is fundamentally broken, I think its a sign that we've acquired a few dumb memes. And Oh have we ever.






Fair enough, I hope you are right. If your experiences are as you say and such environments do still flourish I suspect I'll be back one day ;)
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Saede Riordan

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #116 on: 12 Mar 2013, 11:17 »

Quote
I deeply regret the way eve has slipped to the mainstream here. It used to be a game where we had weirdos and bizarre people, our kinks and queers and alternative subcultures, gays, straights, cross dressers and virtual prostitutes rubbing soldiers with fanatics, politicians, anarchists, loyalists, soldiers, mercenaries and pirates and it felt, it genuinely felt like some outworld cantina where literally anything could happen and you were always going to learn something strange and new in late night conversations while hunting war targets.

All us weirdos are still around though, and we're still somewhat noisy in the community. I've definitely felt the environment you describe in the quote above being present, and I've only been playing since January of 08. If anything I feel like things have actually been improving a lot lately and the roleplay community has been growing pretty impressively.

I wouldn't be so quick to write us all off as having been subsumed into the mainstream. We all have our little pockets of the game, and in my case, I'm even pretty noisy on the forums with my opinions. EVE has always struck me as a very adult game played by and large by very mature people. While there might be trolls and assholes and idiots, overall the game community is rather friendly and understanding. I've never been harassed about my gender or sexuality, I've never really been harassed at all honestly. My community experience by and large has been almost entirely positive. Maybe I'm just being sheltered, and I'm not seeing the wider community, but overall what I've seen has looked pretty good to me.

The 'Space Lesbian' term is stupid, I think we can all agree its pretty dumb and its shitty to call people that. I don't think its a sign that the community is fundamentally broken, I think its a sign that we've acquired a few dumb memes. And Oh have we ever.






Fair enough, I hope you are right. If your experiences are as you say and such environments do still flourish I suspect I'll be back one day ;)

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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #117 on: 12 Mar 2013, 15:37 »

Excellent posts by Jade. +10 likes.

kalaratiri

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #118 on: 12 Mar 2013, 15:46 »

Thread seems to be slowing down a bit now, so I'd just like to post a big thank you to everyone on backstage for having this discussion in an adult and sensible way.

♥ you guys  :cube:
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Nicoletta Mithra

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Re: "Space Lesbians"
« Reply #119 on: 12 Mar 2013, 16:16 »

I would argue that the RP community (uses) adopted the "space lesbian" term under cultural influence from anti roleplay / mainstream gamer culture elsewhere in the community. The prefix "space" before lesbians is too similar to the prefix "Internet" before spaceships to be entirely coincidental. The fact that the RP community has anyone RPing anything to do with sex and sex through the mirror of virtual gender confusion makes it a target for the mockery and derision of the gamer mainstream and reactionary homophobia.

But the fact that a subculture is under threat from a larger mainstream does not prevent it from being a safe(r) haven. I live in Brighton in the UK, its one of the most liberal, laid back and accommodating places in Europe for gay and alternative lifestyles but guess what? People still get queer-bashed by reactionary elements and away day thugs looking for a thrill in their banal conformity.

For me its pretty simple, space lesbian is a term like Internet spaceships that is designed to mock a particular play style or preference and ensure a single worldview attains dominance in the mmo ecosystem. Men shouldn't sex up men wearing female avatars just as people shouldn't get annoyed when they get screwed over Internet spaceships ... That's the commandments from Eve's neo Puritanicals.

Still doesn't explain the prevalence for lesbian characters in a subculture filled with gay/lesbian/transgender/alternative lifestyles/etc.
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