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Author Topic: Amarr Arc  (Read 45423 times)

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #180 on: 19 Mar 2013, 09:52 »

I certainly hope not. Amarr have spent the last several years shaking off the mantel of being the sex-crime-comitting, slave-abusing, completely-ridiculous-to-the-point-of-no-seriousness villains of EVE. The last thing we need now is for the whole faction to roll straight back over into being the "bad guys" again.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Mitara Newelle

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #181 on: 19 Mar 2013, 10:22 »

If we follow the pattern of all the new PF / Life events tying with Dust events you can bet good ISK the Amarr arc will likely feature Sarumite Dusties bringing the Holy Wrath.
About damn time!!  :)
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Section 3) Shitposting. "The cluster would be a much better place if all Amarrians were set on fire"

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #182 on: 19 Mar 2013, 10:44 »

Frankly I'm just becomming resigned that CCP will never write in enough redeemable good into the Empire's background that we'll ever seen as anything even remotely 'good' from a modern point of view. But if we're going to be evil we might as well wear the role well.
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Korona

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #183 on: 19 Mar 2013, 10:53 »

Amen brother
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Tabor Murn

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #184 on: 19 Mar 2013, 10:58 »

I don't see why a Sarum DUST raid has to be a bad thing. It certainly fits with the background of that house. Maybe instead of a slave raid it'd be a coordinated capsuleer and dustie push to retake Kourmonen or Arzad.
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #185 on: 19 Mar 2013, 11:21 »

I certainly hope not. Amarr have spent the last several years shaking off the mantel of being the sex-crime-comitting, slave-abusing, completely-ridiculous-to-the-point-of-no-seriousness villains of EVE. The last thing we need now is for the whole faction to roll straight back over into being the "bad guys" again.

We can be aggressive slavers and still be good guys.

The Empire doesn't need to fold into a Western moral paradigm, nor should it.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #186 on: 19 Mar 2013, 11:36 »

The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.

Frankly, in recent times the ban on external slave-taking is one of the few things that has made it possible to RP an Amarr. When we get mobbed with the SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY arguments, one of the best things we had to respond with is "Hey, you've got Sansha and Angels and whatnot actually raiding your territory. We've got some modicum of an agreement. Might want to re-evaluate your priorities." That gets shot out from under us, that removes just about the only leg Amarr had left to stand on.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Samira Kernher

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #187 on: 19 Mar 2013, 12:45 »

The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.

The Republic and the State already have a one-up on us for breaking CONCORD agreements.

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Frankly, in recent times the ban on external slave-taking is one of the few things that has made it possible to RP an Amarr. When we get mobbed with the SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY arguments, one of the best things we had to respond with is "Hey, you've got Sansha and Angels and whatnot actually raiding your territory. We've got some modicum of an agreement. Might want to re-evaluate your priorities." That gets shot out from under us, that removes just about the only leg Amarr had left to stand on.

The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics).

What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it. Get rid of the slave abuse, the Vitoxin, the breeding colonies, TCMCs, etc. Focus on the spiritual education. Our slavery is entirely different from the Angels and the Nation, but it shouldn't be because "we don't do it". It's a core part of Amarr culture. It's seen as a good thing. Build on the why it's a good thing. Non-Amarr may not accept those arguments, but oh well. We don't operate on the same moral paradigm. We should be able to argue that it's good according to Amarr morality.

The Empire has something that almost no real slave nation has ever had... we view slaves as actual people worth saving and uplifting. The "free labor" thing shouldn't be attached to Amarrian slavery at all IMO. That kind of slavery should be completely incompatible with Amarrian morals. Sure, some regions (like TM and Kingdom) and some Holders might enjoy those benefits, but these should be the exceptions, like the Refusards, who are abusing the system and will get in trouble if they don't keep a check on it.

What I think is that the TC and the Speakers should put their feet down regarding slavery abuse, and start ensuring that proper spiritual education is what is occurring. Encouraging release of slaves who have been enlightened, cracking down on people who are arbitrarily cruel to slaves, cutting out the breeding program entirely, and preferably banning Vitoxin and TCMCs which both run counter to spiritual development.

Oh yeah, and build on the fact that free Amarr actually work beside their slaves from time to time. That's something that's mandated in the Scriptures and is shown in a Chronicle.

[spoiler]"Chosen, you are first before God.
You are the True and the Faithful.
But in such a state must you hold yourselves high above all.
And constantly prove yourself worthy of Gods Love.
How can such a gift be repaid,
Other than to toil all our days,
In his glorious service,
According to his will,
Serving him always,
Bearing him first in our thoughts,
Always must we strive to show him our worth,
For we are the Chosen, Blessed above all."

- The Scriptures, Anoyia's Exhortation to the Faithful[/spoiler]

[spoiler]"The Amarr Empire kept slaves, and on this planet some of those slaves tilled the fields alongside the acolytes, while others, not yet ascended, lived and worked in [the mines]." - Merely Disassembled[/spoiler]


We don't have to get rid of slavery in order to be able to play good Amarr characters. We have plenty of legs to stand on, we just need to use them and, hopefully, get CCP to start acknowledging them as well. The Theology Council needs to start doing its job of moral policing.
« Last Edit: 19 Mar 2013, 13:01 by Samira Kernher »
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #188 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:04 »

The thing is, Samira, even in a lot of the EVE PF Amarrian slavery has been handled ham-handedly, depicting mostly the cruelty and injustice rather than any potential good. Then, any 'moralist' Amarrians get drowned out and eliminated by the power-hungry, as in the case with Arzad Hamri in the old days or the TCMC-favoring Holders winning out against more traditional ones. Then there's the nightmare of breeding slaves like they are cattle, eugenics and all (which should by all means be completely against the Amarrian faith), casually using slaves as disposable labor forces (again, immoral even to Amarrians) and blowing up planets when rebellions start (derp). This results in players seeing the faction as evil, and they play accordingly. 'Morally corrupt' slavery, even by the Amarrian standard, has been written into the background so thoroughly it would take a major reformation to root it out. Alas, I don't think the fiction team is interested in that at the moment.

Like I said, we might as well wear the mantle. The concepts of religion, slavery, authoritarianism and feudalistic social classism are always going to be seen as backwards to the average EVE player OOC, and only through suspension of belief (which many players lack, even RP'ers) would they be able to say 'Hey, they're not so bad!' No, the Amarr are bad from any sane modern person's view, and only people who drink the kool-aid IC (only Amarrians) think otherwise.

It's futile to struggle against it in any way but subtle pressures. You're in a highly stratified empire that wants to rule all of humanity through a singular religion to the exclusion of all others. Social structure and culture ensures that it will remain so for at least the next 100 - 1,000 years, much longer than the game will last. There are going to be tons of things a liberal/'nice Amarr' character is going to dislike, but they have to be patient and deal with it unless they want to become apostate or traitor.

As far as current affairs in the Empire, hopefully the story will flesh out more soon and we'll be able to clearly see who is reformist, who is extreme zealot, who is amoral power-hungry and who is the messianic ray of hope. I believe the slave raid will happen but that there are going to be a lot of people in the Empire who don't like it, maybe even the Empress. We'll have to wait and see.

Even so, despite the fact a slave raid might cause friction within the Empire, people outside of it are not going to care. The Empire did so-and-so and they're evil.

However, since I've given up on seeing the Empire do 'good things' in the cluster for a change, I would instead like the other factions get darker along with us. CCP has been doing a good job of this with the Gallente with the Black Eagles and creeper Roden. The Caldari are mixed, which is really refreshing and fascinating to watch. However, the Amarr/Minmatar conflict is still boringly black and white; crotchety old evil church slavers vs. romantically free space natives. If we're going to be mostly crotchety old church slavers forever, I want to be fighting barbarian savages with an ancient grudge that causes them to do some equally horrible, or even worse things. If we're going to be trying to enslave the Minmatar we should have a better reason than "because religion". Why not "enslave them because they're murdering our people whenever they can get their hands on them"? I really don't think the Minmatar military will be very restrained when it comes to Amarrian civilians. We already know they treat Amarrian POW's terribly, but the fact the Minmatar can be really cruel as well should be highlighted. Then maybe we can say all of the races are portrayed in a morally grey/dark grey light.

And before any Minmatar players say that the Republic doesn't have a dark side when it comes to Amarrians, I kick your sacred fern.



GOOD DAY.
« Last Edit: 19 Mar 2013, 14:07 by Aldrith Shutaq »
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Samira Kernher

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #189 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:11 »

The thing is, Samira, even in a lot of the EVE PF Amarrian slavery has been handled ham-handedly, depicting mostly the cruelty and injustice rather than any potential good.

I never said I disagreed with this. I said that CCP needs to stop focusing on these and to instead build on the positive aspects.

Quote
Then, any 'moralist' Amarrians get drowned out and eliminated by the power-hungry, as in the case with Arzad Hamri in the old days or the TCMC-favoring Holders winning out against more traditional ones.

Arzad was too liberal. There's a careful balance. By Amarr traditions, he was completely neglecting his role as a teacher. He was "spoiling" his slaves. Also, the TCMC Holders didn't win out. The Theology Council simply refused to hear the case and make a hard decision.

Quote
Then there's the nightmare of breeding slaves like they are cattle, eugenics and all (which should by all means be completely against the Amarrian faith), casually using slaves as disposable labor forces (again, immoral even to Amarrians) and blowing up planets when rebellions start (derp). This results in players seeing the faction as evil, and they play accordingly. 'Morally corrupt' slavery, even by the Amarrian standard, has been written into the background so thoroughly it would take a major reformation to root it out. Alas, I don't think the fiction team is interested in that at the moment.

I wasn't saying these things don't exist. I'm saying that they're wrong and should be stamped out. What we shouldn't do is cast away slavery entirely in order to appeal to Western morals. Fix the system, don't throw it away.
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Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #190 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:17 »

I wasn't saying these things don't exist. I'm saying that they're wrong and should be stamped out. What we shouldn't do is cast away slavery entirely in order to appeal to Western morals. Fix the system, don't throw it away.

Oh definitely, I was completely agreeing with you on this front. But unfortunately that's all up to CCP, not us.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #191 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:33 »

I don't want to see the corruption rooted out from the Amarr. It's part of their grimdark side, like every faction has its own.

However, like Aldrith said, I would rather like to see CCP emphasizing a little more on the "good", poetic sides of the Amarr, while darkening the other ones accordingly. I would like to learn more of a contrasted Amarr Empire where mistreated and miserable slaves walk in the same streets as intellectuals, philosophers, ageless scientists. I would like to see more of the religious/spiritual res publica (as in the public thing from the latin root) forums, agoras, and debates the Empire used to have in PF iirc.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #192 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:35 »

To be clear: I don't think ANYONE was asking for slavery to be ended outright.


Problem with what you're suggesting, Samira, is that when you have the Amarr on the one hand trying to "moralize" slavery, but on the other hand they are abrogating treaties to aggressively drag people in to slavery. When people look at the latter, the former is going to be very, very, very hard to make sense of IC.
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I like the implications of Gallentians being punched in the face by walking up to a Minmatar as they so freely use another person's culture as a fad.

Aldrith Shutaq

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #193 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:41 »

You know what would be a really cool twist, actually? That Sarum fleet isn't meant to take slaves from occupied Minmatar territory, it's meant to evacuate  Amarrian civilians from the Bleak Lands and Devoid that are too poor to leave themselves. The 24th Imperial Crusade is currently losing most systems, so this would actually make a lot of sense. Makes the Empire look a little better, makes the Minmatar look a little worse, catches everyone off-guard and messes with their perceptions. Perfect.
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Rin Kaelestria

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Re: Amarr Arc
« Reply #194 on: 19 Mar 2013, 13:43 »

Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the new transport ships aren't going to be retrieving new slaves? There's always the possibility that an event could happen where those transports are used to extract the Dusties from Caldari/Gallente space after their major event is done. The Empress did just openly tell the Dusties they have a place with us, but nothing was said as to how they Dusties were going to make their way to the Empire.  :P
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