Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: orange on 09 Feb 2013, 11:46
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Ardishapur Family Criticizes Imperial Educational Standards (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5032&tid=2)
Edit: I think it would be useful to double use these threads as a basis for chronicling OOC the events, linking to appropriate threads, to later build the Evelopedia page.
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Ardishaput forms educational committee, Jamyl strikes it down, begin revolt #2?
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Well, Yonis did improve education in the Mandate after he was made governor, so it's not a very surprising development.
I'd imagine the general education of commoners would mainly be a duty for the local holder though.
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I have a sneaking suspicion the new curriculum will support a more.... conservative approach to all things, and interject some not-unsubtle doubt on Jamyl's legitimacy.
But I love that the news report is 'about' education curriculum and civil servants while the State is tearing itself to pieces next door. Just love how for the Amarr this amount of squabbling publicly over a possibly 'trivial' subject can be seen as JUST AS BIG OF A DEAL.
:)
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i'll point out that it's in the "Amarr news" channel
And, instead of being reported by "The Scope", it's got the ACN logo!
\o/
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Ardishapur is deeply influenced by the Speakers of Truth - one of the chief educational institutions of the Empire.
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TBH, at this point there's a decent part of me that'd rather see Jamyl remain in power, albeit significantly weakened and more subordinate to the other heirs.
Reasons are twofold: First, if everyone gets deposed in short order, it'd be kind of... I dunno, bland? "Hey guys, instead of offering a varying evolution of all of the big 4, they're all getting their leaders offed and we're starting with a completely new slate." Just seems kinda =S to me.
Second, the Amarr just had an Emperor get offed. Can the nation that nominally has the longest-reigning leaders not have the single fastest leadership turnover in the game?
On the otherhand, Jamyl herself represents such a colossal headache for many Amarr that it'd be sticky to leave her in place as well. So, I dunno.
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I hope they're not going to a civil war with different reasons like the Caldari, mostly because it's not fun to see two plots just act the same. So I believe they're probably going elsewhere with this, though it's probably too soon to know. Maybe a stronger centralization?
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As much as I'd love to see Yonis as emperor, the Empire has definitely had too much turnover. Better that Jamyl stays.
I don't really see this as a precursor towards deposing Jamyl, though. There's not quite as much player outcry against her as there has been against Heth, so I don't see what reason there'd be to get rid of her.
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As much as I'd love to see Yonis as emperor, the Empire has definitely had too much turnover. Better that Jamyl stays.
I don't really see this as a precursor towards deposing Jamyl, though. There's not quite as much player outcry against her as there has been against Heth, so I don't see what reason there'd be to get rid of her.
Ahahahaha, hahahaha, ahahahahah. You obviously haven't been around long enough then. I remember how 99% of the loyalist bloc went up in ooc arms against the "omg psychic zombie queen jamyl" :lol:
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I'll see your fascist state dictator and raise you our zombie drug-addled mind controlled by an ai telepathic with superhuman strength empress any day of the week.
She.
Is.
The.
Worst.
No debate.
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As much as I'd love to see Yonis as emperor, the Empire has definitely had too much turnover. Better that Jamyl stays.
I don't really see this as a precursor towards deposing Jamyl, though. There's not quite as much player outcry against her as there has been against Heth, so I don't see what reason there'd be to get rid of her.
Ahahahaha, hahahaha, ahahahahah. You obviously haven't been around long enough then. I remember how 99% of the loyalist bloc went up in ooc arms against the "omg psychic zombie queen jamyl" :lol:
Not saying she isn't bad. :P Just all the flak I've been seeing lately has been targeted at Heth rather than Jamyl.
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As much as I'd love to see Yonis as emperor, the Empire has definitely had too much turnover. Better that Jamyl stays.
I don't really see this as a precursor towards deposing Jamyl, though. There's not quite as much player outcry against her as there has been against Heth, so I don't see what reason there'd be to get rid of her.
Ahahahaha, hahahaha, ahahahahah. You obviously haven't been around long enough then. I remember how 99% of the loyalist bloc went up in ooc arms against the "omg psychic zombie queen jamyl" :lol:
Not saying she isn't bad. :P Just all the flak I've been seeing lately has been targeted at Heth rather than Jamyl.
I hear you. It's mostly because the loyalist bloc has, over the years, learned to roll with the punches. :)
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Ammatar UPRISING WOOO
As much as I'd love to see Yonis as emperor, the Empire has definitely had too much turnover. Better that Jamyl stays.
I don't really see this as a precursor towards deposing Jamyl, though. There's not quite as much player outcry against her as there has been against Heth, so I don't see what reason there'd be to get rid of her.
Ahahahaha, hahahaha, ahahahahah. You obviously haven't been around long enough then. I remember how 99% of the loyalist bloc went up in ooc arms against the "omg psychic zombie queen jamyl" :lol:
Not saying she isn't bad. :P Just all the flak I've been seeing lately has been targeted at Heth rather than Jamyl.
Amarr RPers have always been a little more blasé.
It's the most ungrateful faction to play in my experience, so when something like that happens they usually shrug it off with fatalism.
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It also may be a normal news that wont lead to nothing.
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My guess. It's a beginning when looking backwards, for now it's just normal everyday news.
Way I see this Heth needs to drop down to KK CEO. And the Amarr really need to clean house and after this one, no more changes in the Imperial Throne. Maybe the Amarr can fight about the Chamberlain next? :twisted:
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Way I see this Heth needs to drop down to KK CEO.
:s Different thread.
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Oh yes, there was a lot of outcry against the Empress (old-Seph for example considered her an usurper for not following the proper channels to reach the Throne), but with time, the Empire is the Empress, so you need to accept it and follow/obey. Like it happened during the times of the Mad Emperor, it's not the place of those without certain powers to judge those above their station. You may like her or not, but you should certainly not speak against her, or else the MIO might pay a visit in the night...
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Its also that since TEA decided to drop her in our laps, the rest of CCP has done a fairly decent job of handling her - instead of playing up the psychic mind-possessed Jamyl, we've been mostly shown a politically astute and tactically-minded Empress. The more mindboggling aspects have been all but ignored, while her capabilities as a normal leader and politician in the Empire's labyrinthine political state have been explored more heavily. I deeply approve of this kind of "making the best of a bad situation".
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It also may be a normal news that wont lead to nothing.
Don't be naive, the age when we could get news-posts that was just that, and did not build up to something bigger, ended long ago.
Unless ofc this IS just a news-post, and there is nothing more to it.
I would love the return of a constant trickle of some news every now and then and not all of it being connected to some bigger issue, for obvious reasons, but I don't think this is it.
We will see though.
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I'll see your fascist state dictator and raise you our zombie drug-addled mind controlled by an ai telepathic with superhuman strength empress any day of the week.
She.
Is.
The.
Worst.
No debate.
As someone who hasn't read any of the books, giving a spoilered TLDR would be very much appreciated on this. Heth is still probably far worse, barring said TLDR.
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I wholly agree with Esna's stance on the Empress thingy. I just ignore what one ought to ignore about it - and CCP thankfully makes this quite easy.
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I actually believe The Broker actually manages to be worse than the Empress.
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Yes, because he was awesome before, and they ruined him. Getting a little off topic, though.
Has any more info come out, or just the one item so far?
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Oooo, education debate always produces some interesting stuff. I will be watching this with closely :)
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I actually believe The Broker actually manages to be worse than the Empress.
Don't forget the Enheduanni. Never forget the Enheduanni.
Or whatever the hell it is spelled.
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I actually believe The Broker actually manages to be worse than the Empress.
Don't forget the Enheduanni. Never forget the Enheduanni.
Or whatever the hell it is spelled.
It's spelled S-P-A-C-E-E-L-V-E-S
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I actually believe The Broker actually manages to be worse than the Empress.
Don't forget the Enheduanni. Never forget the Enheduanni.
Or whatever the hell it is spelled.
It's spelled S-P-A-C-E-E-L-V-E-S
Please don't be insulting, the Eldar are awesome in their settings, the whatwastheirnamesagain were a horribly bad plot-point pulled out of the ass of a mediocre writer.
Anyhow... I am somewhat interested in seeing where this goes myself. While I'm about to sever my current link to Amarr RP I still like the faction OOC and want to know how this goes.
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People, just don't read the books. They give you OOC information your character wouldn't have access too, but (apparently) are still influencing the way you play your character....
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I'm deeply blessed in that I found TonyG's writing style so grating I never made it more than a few chapters into each book. Avoiding the executive summaries floating around has proven more difficult -- but it helps.
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I read TEA, and yeah, Jamyl is pretty out there, but like Merd said, 'we' know none of it. Being a Sarumite, Mitty is quite ok to drink the kool aid of the Jamyl Miracle :D
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One can dislike Jamyl and the entire situation IC without knowing anything about sleepers, drugs, telepathy, any of that.
Her pod was destroyed live, broadcast to everyone across the cluster as well IIRC. She shows up several years later.
Nearly all of the IC frowning at this is related to succession issues and her obvious clone-ness, and not really any of the 'behind the scenes' ooc book knowledge.
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What Silas said. You don't need the stuff from the book to have a completely rock-solid reason for hating Jamyl as an Amarrian. All the evidence you need was provided in the ingame news way back when.
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If someone could track down her frozen body from the Sathol'syn then it could be The Thing that deposes her.
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If someone could track down her frozen body from the Sathol'syn then it could be The Thing that deposes her.
You are a genius.
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I thought PIE had it ?
In the secret hangar.
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Yup, I agree with Silas. Old-Seph had a full list of reasons to dislike her beyond those in TEA: her death and rebirth, the "casual timing" of her reappearance, the disregard to the proper channels to reach the Throne, etc.
Her ascension to Empress is way beyond what many amarrians would consider appropriate. Fortunately, those things are now a matter of the past, and we can focus on other sides of her in order to decide to back her if we so wish, but we also have munitions enough for those who would frown upon her ICly without breaking the OOC/IC barrier.
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I asked around when TEA hit, I had burned my bridges with most of the PIE brass that skedaddled to CVA when PIE almost kicked the bucket.
Never got an answer from the old codgers that were there during the event.
Always thought the Sarumites got her corpse, or destroyed it so that they could claim that she did exactly what TonyG came up with in his originality.
Of course the only person that was there that I could really trust, was Gaius Kador, he nabbed the Kador Heirs corpse...
He quit during the aftermath of TEA.
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We must find the Inquisitor. This is the start of an epic quest.
From what I heard he was cool people.
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Grand Inquisitor.
He might be working on one of those Oil rigs in the North Sea.
Good luck.
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Sepherim Catillah gets his "search for inquisitor" equipment kits. Ready!
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The image fades to black. As if being written by a typewriter, the following appears at the bottom-right of the screen...
15 February, 2013
BP Oil Platform Harding
59° 15′ N, 01°30′ E
The black screen lightens as the sun rises, the churning blades of a helicopter can be made out over the lightening hue of the sky. A faint, golden insignia adorns the starboard side of the vehicle as it speeds towards the floating object on the horizon...
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/me rabbles.
So we've had some awesome Caldari, Minmatar and now a Gallente event.
I'm getting anxious.
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That corpse is in the hangars of the ruins of Old BoB. There's a short list of suspects I know, but not the whole mystery. Hell, my data could be completely wrong...but it is the great treasure, and should be sought for and discovered.
I hear you. It's mostly because the loyalist bloc has, over the years, learned to roll with the punches. :)
Too true.
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Huh. I honestly didn't even think that thing existed, much less that it would be -there-...
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Wait so it DOES exist?....lol@the storm that would ensue should it be made public.
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dismissable.
it would be from a time from when all corpses were male
thus:
"you expect us to believe that's the corpse of the Empress? it's not even the right gender!"
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I suggested this line of pursuit to the covenant a few weeks back, and it is being 'looked into.'
Additionally I asked my 'at the time' inside PIE man IC to poke about the PIE leadership to see.
Khan spilled the beans IC on his thread regarding his PIE dismissal which is of course his perogative IC, I of course had been hoping it would be held under wraps until more information was available...
The idea being if Sabik agents could gain control of the corpse it could be used to destabilize the Imperial Government.
Obviously no one would believe anything coming from us, so the plan would be to make a deal with certain Heir Families to give them the corpse. I have a feeling some families (Ardishapur) would even make a deal with the devil to attain that particular object.
We'd of course use that to our advantage at a later point but, the mission of throwing the empire into an internal shitstorm was very appealing...
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I don't think that this corpse will change anything much.
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I don't think that this corpse will change anything much.
Indisputable evidence of Jamyl Clone would would indeed change many things.
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Although I'd prefer a civil war IC and OOC, there's no reason such a thing couldn't force an abdication. I mean hell the POPE just got pushed out due to internal scheming for the first time in 600 years. It could happen in EVE :P
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But it's not indisputable evidence: The most you might get off it is that she had capsuleer implants, but there is no way to show by the corpse that the neural imprint that (might) have been taken from the clone (as one would have to show by a really old frozen (?) corpse) has been received anywhere.
P.S.: That the pope was 'pushed out for internal schemeing' is pure speculation on your part. Actually, for the 'internal schemers' an old senile pope, like Johannes Paul was, is much better than a pope abdicating and making room for a new pope who's younger and better able to fight for his intentions for the church.
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The corpse will have a fried brain matter resulting from the burning scanner. That would be pretty telling.
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It would also BE the corpse of Jamyl freaking Sarum. DNA verified.
There shouldn't be any other Jamyl Sarum's out there.
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As I said, even if it has, one would have to show that the imprint has been received somewhere. There's no church doctrine against burn-scanning a brain, there's one against clones. So, you got a burn-scanned brain, fine. But where is the clone?
Nothing gets any more obvious than it was before. The heirs and the TC hand-waved it back then, they will do so again. Yonis has nothing to gain by this, else he would have people out searching for that corpse already.
Of course there should. God gave her another body, it's a freakin' miracle after all. <.<
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I'm not sure what the brain scan has to do with it? It's a dead meat sack of Jamyl Sarum, with her DNA, which isn't supposed to exist, anywhere.
Whatever condition the brain is in doesn't matter. It could be just her arm or her leg floating out in space and that would be enough, since there should be no body parts anywhere in the universe with her DNA, according to the powers that be.
But haters gonna hate *shrug*
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Not true. The body pars that were cut off Kor-Azor had his dna as well. If you ampute a leg of a heir, that body part has his DNA and the heir is allowed to get it regrown (with some Ardishapur hand exceptions).
Jamyl died, so there was a corpse. No where is stated that when God sent Jamyl back, he didn't grant her a new body. Rather than sending her back into a decaying mass held in some 0.0 hangar, why shouldn't he just *snip* and have her returning in a brand new body? There's no church doctrine that prevents God from granting people he sends back from the dead a new body, no?
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To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.
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To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.
This.
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I suppose it depends on what her shitty official alibi is... :P
It would also matter if the corpse is 'original' Jamyl, or 'clone' Jamyl. If it is original Jamyl then your alibi could work Esna, but if it's a clone body with her DNA then that is a deal breaker, since there should be no clones of her at all.
This also goes into weather they have retconned all capsuleers as having to 'die' a first time before getting their careers going.
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Having a DNA-confirmed piece of her body on its own is not damning, because as Mithra said, it was a divine miracle. God could have risen the original body, or he could have given her a new one and placed her soul within it. Logic in that case does not apply. You'd have expected God to destroy the original body as he recreated her in a new one, as surely God is not so sloppy, so it would be a bit iffy, but not enough on its own I feel.
And IIRC, the official alibi was that there was no explanation. She was back, the means were divine, the end.
But the brain itself, showing signs of burn scanning, is a very, very clear indication that a cloning occurred. The only way I could see it being rationalized away is if all the Heirs had their scanners on and had simply had no Medical Clones or disabled fluid routers. But if all but Jamyl had their scanners turned off for the event (or if their capsules didn't have scanners at all, due to Sacred Flesh), it would be damning.
(this is assuming the other Heirs were also capsuleers, I wasn't there so I have no idea)
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This also goes into weather they have retconned all capsuleers as having to 'die' a first time before getting their careers going.
No source in-game states that you have a pre-career death... at least, I didn't see any when I started this character a month ago. It was only in the expansion beta to my understanding and was removed before the expansion went live.
And even then, that change was made after the Succession Trials. Even when CCP was going with the idea, they specifically said it was a change to the training regimes, not a retcon, thus anyone who had been trained prior to it did not go through it.
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This also goes into weather they have retconned all capsuleers as having to 'die' a first time before getting their careers going.
No source in-game states that you have a pre-career death... at least, I didn't see any when I started this character a month ago. It was only in the expansion beta to my understanding and was removed before the expansion went live.
And even then, that change was made after the Succession Trials. Even when CCP was going with the idea, they specifically said it was a change to the training regimes, not a retcon, thus anyone who had been trained prior to it did not go through it.
There was, briefly, on TQ. It has since been removed/retconned.
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I just have so much sad face for Amarr loyalists, as no one can take them seriously IC without putting the derp blinders on.
It's really, really, really unfortunate.
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To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.
This.
What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?
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All of the heirs were, I believe.
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Them all being capsuleers might have been more a product of game engine and doing the event LIVE and restrictions with such things. Nevertheless it's never been retconned and they were all in pods so...
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To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.
This.
What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?
Sacred Flesh says you cannot be cloned. The "euthanized and cloned to a capsuleer body" is relatively recent thing, and one you don't even know about unless you have sound on during the new player tutorials (and not sure if it's in the current version of NPE). Before that, it could be assumed that you could well be a capsuleer and use the body you were born with - just do not get killed.
As a matter of fact, I understand that Heth is currently the only non-capsuleer head of state. Jamyl? Capsuleer, mentioned several times over (that Abaddon of hers was capsule-commanded). Roden? Yup. Shakor? At least in the original chrons he was a capsuleer, and then abducted by the Jove.
On the Heirs: I understand that anyone could be implanted and stuck in a capsule at least once. Mindlock risk happens when they disconnect, right? So technically, for suicidal purposes, they don't need to care about mindlock. And they're most likely implanted to Hek and back already, so the cost of the implants is not a concern.
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To my understanding, the corpse's mere existence does not mean anything. The Shathol'Syn ritual as it was performed in the live event demands that Jamyl explode her capsule as a means of committing suicide; this would, logically, produce a corpse.
This.
What ? Jamyl was a capsuleer before her death ? Wtf ? And the sacred flesh ?
Sacred Flesh says you cannot be cloned. The "euthanized and cloned to a capsuleer body" is relatively recent thing, and one you don't even know about unless you have sound on during the new player tutorials (and not sure if it's in the current version of NPE). Before that, it could be assumed that you could well be a capsuleer and use the body you were born with - just do not get killed.
As a matter of fact, I understand that Heth is currently the only non-capsuleer head of state. Jamyl? Capsuleer, mentioned several times over (that Abaddon of hers was capsule-commanded). Roden? Yup. Shakor? At least in the original chrons he was a capsuleer, and then abducted by the Jove.
On the Heirs: I understand that anyone could be implanted and stuck in a capsule at least once. Mindlock risk happens when they disconnect, right? So technically, for suicidal purposes, they don't need to care about mindlock. And they're most likely implanted to Hek and back already, so the cost of the implants is not a concern.
It's certainly a bit convenient that the heads of all 5 families would be capsule-compatible considering it's something like .00000001% of the population can even interphase with the Jove tech to begin with....
Or is it.....
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I get the feeling that genetics is only an issue for the common resident of New Eden. Extremely wealthy individuals probably have the ability to pay exorbitant amounts for training/high-tech specialized equipment that permits them to access the pod without mindlocking despite not having the appropriate gene. That's the only explanation I can think of.
Although I think CCP has previously said, "they were chosen for their position because they were capsuleers," which just means that baseliners pretty much have no chance to be head of anything anymore unless they pull a Heth. Which might be a reason why the common Caldari citizen still likes him.
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it's apparently in the empyrean age book, that no body was found.
so I don't know, stuff written in the books retconning things that actually occurred ingame? :ugh:
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Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.
Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.
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Aldrith, you heretic. /tsk
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Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.
Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.
You should consider contacting the RKN representative, as many Tetrimon supporters were sheltered in the Kingdom....
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Hi to all, and sorry for any misspellings.
What Silas said. You don't need the stuff from the book to have a completely rock-solid reason for hating Jamyl as an Amarrian. All the evidence you need was provided in the ingame news way back when.
I just have so much sad face for Amarr loyalists, as no one can take them seriously IC without putting the derp blinders on.
It's really, really, really unfortunate.
Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.
Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.
I think, Spoon Thumb has made long time ago on the old eve-o forum along and well thought out comment about: How we in-character also know that there is something wrong with Jamyl. Sadly I havent found a link. He had put it very nicely and in better words as I ever can. By the way, if he reads this, thanks for the "Khaldari" term I love it.
Ardishapur Family Criticizes Imperial Educational Standards (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5032&tid=2)
Edit: I think it would be useful to double use these threads as a basis for chronicling OOC the events, linking to appropriate threads, to later build the Evelopedia page.
I take some freedom and come back to the amarr arc. I think the amarr arc and the gallente arc have one thing in common and this the question: What would you give up for security and survival. I the amarr arc is the question ones around education in the federation around "as a breach of their rights, and an invasion of their privacy or civil liberty (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=208117&find=unread)" (as mention in the speech). I know this summery form me comes VERY SHORT AND DOESNT SHOWS THE WHOLE DEEPNESS. But maybe it helps to come back to the topic. So to easy down the topic. We could form it into a question. The question could be around a trade-off decision (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trade-off); where we as citizens make a decision around a indifference curve (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indifference_curve). Which means we can make decisions along this curve. One side would be "resources (capital, labour) for security and survival" on the other side would be "resources (capital, labour) for something else as security and survival". In the case of the Federation would be this something else: "personal rights, invasion of personal privacy or civil liberty". So that we could ask:
How much of your personal rights, invasion in your privacy or civil liberty would you sacrifice for your security and survival? You as individual and you as a member of this the state (as in the end it is the state, which can give at least a little guarantee). Where were your place in the indifference curve?
______________________
As for the Amarr, it would be education. As the main page said ones, it as something very important for the Amarr (as the old intro mention).
How much of your education would you sacrifice for your security and survival? You as individual and you as a member of this the state (as in the end it is the state, which can give at least a little guarantee). Where were your place in the indifference curve?
____________________
Before you find your personal answer, know that if you choice to put all resources away form "security and survival", that you land in here (http://ebooks.adelaide.edu.au/h/hobbes/thomas/h68l/chapter13.html). So you cant choose to put all your resources away of "security and survival". But what is with the other extrem? Can you put almost all of your resources in "security and survival"? So maybe that would be my second question, if you find your perfect place in the indifference curve. Say to me, why you not choice to give 1isk more to security and survival?
The speech: https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&t=208117&find=unread
The article: http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5032&tid=2
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Empress corpse or no, everyone with half a brain knows that Jamyl died that day. The body would just be a physical reminder of the fact, and is more of a symbol than anything. Whether or not it is a powerful symbol or not is up to CCP as they control how the people and power-dealers of the Empire would react.
Honestly I'm just waiting for the day I can go Tetrimon and give the finger to the Theology Council.
You should consider contacting the RKN representative, as many Tetrimon supporters were sheltered in the Kingdom....
Ehm no. The Kingdom is de jure a vassel of the Emprie and subordinate to Jamyl I.* (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793) So a move form him to the kingdom wouldnt change that much. As for the kingdom, this new true changes alot (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29). But very off topic.
Back to the arc topic. :P
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Also, the corpse of the Empress could be used to create clones of the Empress.
Add in some infomorphs that want to cause havoc in the Empire, and you've driven it to its knees.
Six Empresses?
How can it be?
Another miracle?
This could be a plot by the Deceiver.
Nuke them all from the orbit just to be sure.
That is the reason that Godflesh doctrine is there.
So that there is not several copies of the rulers running about.
Because there is no way to tell which one of the clones is the 'real' one.
They may all be (or think that they are.)
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Also, the corpse of the Empress could be used to create clones of the Empress.
Add in some infomorphs that want to cause havoc in the Empire, and you've driven it to its knees.
Six Empresses?
How can it be?
Another miracle?
This could be a plot by the Deceiver.
Nuke them all from the orbit just to be sure.
That is the reason that Godflesh doctrine is there.
So that there is not several copies of the rulers running about.
Because there is no way to tell which one of the clones is the 'real' one.
They may all be (or think that they are.)
As I can tell from the german RP community, Jamyl is one of the most hated NPCs in the game. Maybe just top by Heth sometimes. But I dont think we will see her dead soon. Even if I by reading thru TO, I always though: "Please die, please die."
So overall I dont think CCP will kill her any time soon/or ever. As ISD Caleb Kang, aka CCP Eterne has made a full page about her. So, he had put in a lot of work into it and I dont think, he will just do it for nothing or lets say: So, that it in the end HIS WORK doesnt matter. Moreover, how defensive he was as Milo and I had critique him about tiny things on this page. So, I dont think he as a agenda (*Publius looks at H. Caul*); even worse. I think, he actually liked Tony Gs books. Yes, here I said it. I think: HE LIKES TONY G WRITING.
So I dont think and our reasoning will change that. Example: I could bring hundreds of examples, that two contradictory paradigms cant be in a above and below arrangement (see imperial seal and royl seal). And that the article clearly says that the Kingdom is interdependent (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3084&tid=4) and as vassal (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Publius_Valerius) you cant be that etc.... But I dont think he would listen or say he is wrong.
Back to the topic:
So overall I think: YES, we can make a huge list why Jamyl is a awful written character and that IC and OCC we have alot of reason to question her legitimacy; but I also think, it wouldnt change a thing.
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*Publius looks at H. Caul*
*Waves merrily*
And that the article clearly says that the Kingdom is interdependent (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3084&tid=4) and as vassal (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Publius_Valerius) you cant be that etc...
Assuming you mean independent, not interdependent - there is definitely such a thing as an independent vassal. Do you even into history?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Republic_%28Napoleonic%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Princely_States
etc
Now can you please keep your rants out of this thread? All of the arc threads are already derailed enough as they are with people whining about how terribly CCP are treating their faction.
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*Publius looks at H. Caul*
*Waves merrily*
And that the article clearly says that the Kingdom is interdependent (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3084&tid=4) and as vassal (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/User:Publius_Valerius) you cant be that etc...
Assuming you mean independent, not interdependent - there is definitely such a thing as an independent vassal. Do you even into history?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kingdom_of_Pontus
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Principality_of_Bulgaria
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Italian_Republic_%28Napoleonic%29
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian_Princely_States
etc
Now can you please keep your rants out of this thread? All of the arc threads are already derailed enough as they are with people whining about how terribly CCP are treating their faction.
Yes I meant independent. And those which I mean are client states/vassals/etc.... (they have one thing in common, that they lost sovereignty in one or another part, as the khanid kingdom etc... As independent/sovereignty state you have all sovereignty. Which means, we are back to my rant on my page). By the way, it still doesnt answer any of the questions, which I pointed out. By the way, not to derail any further; I hope one day, someone explains to Eterne and maybe you, what a scientific law is.
About: "Do you even into history?" Yes I am. But those (in your example) are they sovereignty states (see Brunos def here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4002.msg63954#msg63954))? If the answer is yes, then they arent like the Khanid Kingdom. Now. Can I ask you something too. Do you and Eterne know what a scientific law is? As I still havent form Eterne any logical-deductiv explanation of this. And his "one liner mail answers" doesnt make any sense, as I have pointed out in the mails. But this very off topic. P.S. I also know, if someone else had ask, the answer would be another. He would look at the news and CCP Gingers pages and said most likely that this person had a point. I think; largely the problem comes form, that he thinks about me in the same way, as I think about him. :lol: And this another story and very off topic.
About "Now can you please keep your rants out of this thread?" As for the topic. As you have seen I have try to get it back my friend. So I dont mind your question. By the way what is for you, as Amarr, more important education or security?*
Edit: *or to be more precisely, security or "stuff which doesnt influence directly your security"
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I found the bit in the Emprean Age novel, where it says that when Jamyl's ship exploded, there was no corpse to be seen.
when it's right there in black and white in a book, I feel it has the potential to be quite bad for RP, for newer people.
Someone new, reading the book, will see that Jamyl's corpse wasn't there.
Talking to people ingame, their memories of actually being there will be different.
The seeds of doubt are planted. growing into the flower of disillusionment.
And yet, as older players lose interest in EVE, the knowledge of what was real fades, and the book's opinion of what was real remains.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
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I found the bit in the Emprean Age novel, where it says that when Jamyl's ship exploded, there was no corpse to be seen.
when it's right there in black and white in a book, I feel it has the potential to be quite bad for RP, for newer people.
Someone new, reading the book, will see that Jamyl's corpse wasn't there.
Talking to people ingame, their memories of actually being there will be different.
The seeds of doubt are planted. growing into the flower of disillusionment.
And yet, as older players lose interest in EVE, the knowledge of what was real fades, and the book's opinion of what was real remains.
We have always been at war with Eastasia.
Tony G should just never use her. She and Khanid II cant be empress/emperors without a sh**load of troubles.... as they have failed ones the trails....etc... But it is very off topic now.
Ardishaput forms educational committee, Jamyl strikes it down, begin revolt #2?
I always thought, a good way out would be a "game of thrones style" of battle for the power.
We would have five players (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Amarr_Heirs), after Jamyl is boba fetted (http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Boba%20Fetted). And we, as capsuleers, could Pledge Your Allegiance (http://www.youtube.com/user/GameofThrones/videos?query=+Pledge+Your+Allegiance) to one of the Houses.
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That is the reason that Godflesh doctrine is there.
So that there is not several copies of the rulers running about.
Because there is no way to tell which one of the clones is the 'real' one.
Why is this opinion still out there IC? My character has never seen any evidence that this is possible, and technically it looks easy if it could be done.
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Just a thought.
Are the regions ruled by the various Imperial Heirs large enough to survive as independent kingdoms as per Khanid?
If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?
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Just a thought.
Are the regions ruled by the various Imperial Heirs large enough to survive as independent kingdoms as per Khanid?
If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?
Three of the Heirs have an entire region - Kador, Kor-Azor, Tash-Murkon. The Ardishapur and Sarum Family have Upper and Lower Domain. The Throne Worlds constellation could be regarded as the Imperial Province, ruled directly by the Emperor.
Would run smack into the Empyrean Age problem of internal conflict - "What? squabble amongst ourselves when the Enemy is there?".
That is the reason that Godflesh doctrine is there.
So that there is not several copies of the rulers running about.
Because there is no way to tell which one of the clones is the 'real' one.
Why is this opinion still out there IC? My character has never seen any evidence that this is possible, and technically it looks easy if it could be done.
There are ways to tell most clones are clones - it may have something to do with the biomass that is used to create them, or the methods of accelerated cell growth, or the weird non-bone materials that are used to make the skeleton.
There are also ways to construct clones that cannot be identified as clones, except maybe by autopsy.
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There is a chron where a businessman travels by jumping from clone to clone and he is informed that he was present at some occasion where he clearly was not.
He notices from the recording that the infomorph inside his clone has some mannerism that he does not and he himself realizes that it was not him or something like that.
Yet there is no way to prove that he was not there.
See?
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There is a chron where a businessman travels by jumping from clone to clone and he is informed that he was present at some occasion where he clearly was not.
He notices from the recording that the infomorph inside his clone has some mannerism that he does not and he himself realizes that it was not him or something like that.
Yet there is no way to prove that he was not there.
See?
http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/One_Man_Too_Many_(Chronicle) (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/One_Man_Too_Many_(Chronicle))
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There is a chron where a businessman travels by jumping from clone to clone and he is informed that he was present at some occasion where he clearly was not.
He notices from the recording that the infomorph inside his clone has some mannerism that he does not and he himself realizes that it was not him or something like that.
Yet there is no way to prove that he was not there.
See?
So? This is a chron that display info which characters likely have no access to, so it is inadmissable IC. Even then, its just one story, compared to thousands of people who want to have multiple clones but can't for reasons unknown.
All IC sources point to the fact that you cannot have multiple clones.
If you can have multiple clones, it would make more sense to clone on supersoldier (Boba Fett like) and use them, instead of cloning lots of grunts.
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If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?
Wouldn't make any sense unless some faction might brokered peace agreements with enemy factions beforehand.
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Just a thought.
Are the regions ruled by the various Imperial Heirs large enough to survive as independent kingdoms as per Khanid?
If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?
I, personally, don't like it one bit. It could be made to have sense, with things like the peace Merdaneth mentioned, but it would require a lot of mass modifications in the end to what it is to be Amarr. Afterall, it's God's Empire, if you are true to Him, you can't break it. Not to mention that I don't recall any previous internal war on this scale (conflicts among holders sure), not even during the Mad Emperor's reign, so it would be pretty against half of the things that have been stated about the Amarr... and I believe that now that TonyG is not writing the story, there is no need to stupidly destroy the factions anymore. xD
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I don't know if there is any PF stating the relative sizes of the House Fleets, but I'd imagine each one quite small compared to overall Imperial fleet, but all combined perhaps just as large?
The Imperial Navy draws forces from all houses, but is the independent force, so to speak. Each house has their own private fleets that secure their own borders and if I recall also contribute forces to the main fleets.
You'll remember Jamyl confiscating Kador fleets and rolling them into the overall Imperial Navy after his Federation Invasion herp derp.
I don't believe any lone house could hold off the Imperial Navy at this point without a few other houses working in unison as allies. The best you could hope for in some doomsday civil war scenario would be each house 'calling in their people' and mass defections from Imperial Navy as they all go home to join their House Fleets in their time of need, etc.
Khanid managed to pull off a stalemate and keep most if the Imp. Navy at bay but he was in charge of the Imperial Navy before his defection and took a -substantial- chunk of the forces with him when he left, probably gutting a good amount of the officer core and command personnel as well, likely all hand-picked by him etc.
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Just a thought.
Are the regions ruled by the various Imperial Heirs large enough to survive as independent kingdoms as per Khanid?
If so what would the Imperial RP community make of the empire breaking up & balkanising, eventually settling into two or three rival factions? Maybe with groups like the various capsuleer schools staying strictly neutral?
Yes, it's possible. Khanid was one of those regions, not really particularly any larger or better equipped. As a feudal empire, each region would be largely ruled independently by the heirs (provided they maintain the policies set down by the Empress). House Fleets seem to be something that's been crushed by policies over the years, for the reason that without complete military superiority the Emperor would really have no way of enforcing his/her will. So any defection would require a good amount of politics beforehand to get the Imperial Navy to stand down, to get portions of the Imperial Navy to defect, to ally with other heirs/empires, or to exploit a situation that takes the Navy's attention (as Khanid did).
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There is a chron where a businessman travels by jumping from clone to clone and he is informed that he was present at some occasion where he clearly was not.
He notices from the recording that the infomorph inside his clone has some mannerism that he does not and he himself realizes that it was not him or something like that.
Yet there is no way to prove that he was not there.
See?
So? This is a chron that display info which characters likely have no access to, so it is inadmissable IC. Even then, its just one story, compared to thousands of people who want to have multiple clones but can't for reasons unknown.
All IC sources point to the fact that you cannot have multiple clones.
If you can have multiple clones, it would make more sense to clone on supersoldier (Boba Fett like) and use them, instead of cloning lots of grunts.
True.
Actually we dont need to flesh out, why Jamyl shouldnt be empress. We just need a way, which could kill her. After, that a new trail would start and a normal person (no zombie bitch/capsuleer/etc) could become Emperor/Empress, without violating the religious laws of the empire (no trail, orgies, drugs, etc). One of the heir could take over, Yonis etc..... As for the argument, that it would be a fast change in the leadership, I dont buy it; to be more precisely, I dont see it as something negative. I think; that the Amarr Empire has shown it is so STABLE/SOLID, that it -- the empire with its institutions (Hard: ministries, constitutions, laws, property rights, etc and Soft: informal restraints, sanctions, taboos, customs, traditions, code of conduct, etc) -- can survive even a bad leadership (see the Mad emperor). So it will also survive a fast change in the leadership too. Even more, that the new leadership would be without and black marks on its legitimacy; so that he/she could rule easy without any problem 300-500 years (and even more).
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Well.
Actually all the characters have come across stories or even experiences where an infomorph is clearly utilizing more than one body across the cluster and separate identities that come with that capability.
Of course it depends on how you want to explain IC the existance of alts and account theft.
But to me, they are clear situations where the infomorph (the player) uses several different bodies (characters) during their lifetime where each and every one of those bodies are different legal entities.
There is even a part of the capsuleer community where they trade different bodies for ISK, bodies that have gone through modification to be better at one thing or another that a capsuleer could use it for (this point of view would actually eliminate the possibility of a capsuleer actually learning anything from the skill books.)
It is pretty much in the eyes of the beholder that what information that is accessible to a character IC.
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I played in a strong and long-lasting framework where alts were "associates", not other bodies. The character bazaars and such were essentially job markets or mercenary contract markets, bringing together people who had particular skill sets with others who had the ISK to hire them.
Until there are changes to the gameplay framework to allow you to recustomise your main body I'm inclined to prefer the view that we haven't yet worked out ways to deal with the sudden body dysphoria of transferring into a completely different form without going even more nuts than is usual for podders. I know that sex and race changes were discussed at last year's Fanfest, so this may well be the sort of thing that'll change in lore as people explore the limits of infomorph psychology and improve our training and responses. For now, though, my default would be that the people who say they've done this are either nuts-and-unreliable-narrators or nuts-because-they-broke-their-heads-while-doing-this.
Your defaults could be quite different. :)
OB Amarr: Is there anything that needs to happen to make the Amarr arc cohere? My impression was that Jamyl was going to continue to be a point of contention, but that she's actually a useful type of contentious subject. It's entirely plausible to claim and believe that whatever happened to bring about the current Jamyl was God's work, using whatever tools God chose to use. What else is there in the Amarrian cultural milieu that could do with some development and direction?
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The shift so far seems to be in examining how the Amarr are handling their forced contact with cultures and forces beyond their control. In some ways it's pretty obvious, but others, you need to dig a bit deeper.
For instance, the chronicle where the head of the Imperial Navy was being put on trial for not charging fruitlessly into the resurgent Nation forces, and Jamyl had to step in to keep him alive, because he - unlike everyone else in the Empire's ancient, deep-set hierarchy - understood that Nation represented a threat entirely different from what the Imperial Navy had faced in the past, and the Empire could not expect to handle it the same way it had handled things in the past.
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I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition. The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.
As for the Holder's fleets, remember not only the Heirs have fleets. Back many years, I participated in the story arc between House Miyan and House Darabi, and both of them had their navies. Surely they were smaller than the Imperial Navy, but probably the sum of the navies of the Holders and the Heirs would be bigger than the Imperial Navy (before Kador lost his, at least) specially now in case the Khanid navy has joined them in being a "Heir fleet" after the King entered the amarrian government (not sure if it did). In my mind, I kinda see this as Legend of the Five Rings goes: different houses have very big and powerful armies, the Empress has his own but its way smaller than the ones of the Clans together (even counting that large parts of the House fleets would have temporarily been transferred to Imperial control), but the Empress has the moral authority and the will to eccert influence or even take control of those forces from time to time.
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Well.
Actually all the characters have come across stories or even experiences where an infomorph is clearly utilizing more than one body across the cluster and separate identities that come with that capability.
I haven't come across stories of people having two clones simultaneously. There may be the appearance of one controlling entity behind different people, but that's not the same as having multiple clones. If Merdaneth could split his personality into several different clones he would do it right now.
All these sources you mention are OOC sources, and you choose to translate them into IC in a certain way. But what I was referring to where IC sources. People that IC claim that their personalities are inhabiting multiple clones simultaneously. I haven't seen such claims.
In fact, my OOC sources say that you cannot activate multiple clones of the same character at the same time, although you can get additional accounts, which contain completely new characters with different attributes. Best IC reference you could do is that there are controlling entities behind several characters, but not of one character inhabiting different bodies simultaneously.
If you want to test your infomorph theory, just try to get two people to talk at two suspected infomorphs that have split up. You'll notice that there is only a single controlling entity behind them, as they have to pause to let the other speak.
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Having two active clones is a big no no from CONCORD. Not happening.
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What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.
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What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.
This is also why we might need more PF fleshing out of the explicit strings CONCORD holds on capsuleers.
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In the case of simultaneously active clones, there was an event arc way back in the day about this.
It's basically a fast-track to the very very top of CONCORD's most-wanted list. They will actively hunt you down.
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I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition. The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.
As for the Holder's fleets, remember not only the Heirs have fleets. Back many years, I participated in the story arc between House Miyan and House Darabi, and both of them had their navies. Surely they were smaller than the Imperial Navy, but probably the sum of the navies of the Holders and the Heirs would be bigger than the Imperial Navy (before Kador lost his, at least) specially now in case the Khanid navy has joined them in being a "Heir fleet" after the King entered the amarrian government (not sure if it did). In my mind, I kinda see this as Legend of the Five Rings goes: different houses have very big and powerful armies, the Empress has his own but its way smaller than the ones of the Clans together (even counting that large parts of the House fleets would have temporarily been transferred to Imperial control), but the Empress has the moral authority and the will to eccert influence or even take control of those forces from time to time.
Well, that's the very principles of feudalism. A king raising levies from his dukes, themselves raising levies from their counts, themselves raising levies from their counties, towns, burgomasters, etc. Eventually you start to see people coming from all corners of space in that or that House "Oh ? You are from Mishi's suborbital guard ? I am usually working for the engineering corps of Hedion prime, but our levies have been called under the banner of House Ardishapur, and so I come to serve his lordship."
Interesting to note that in the same vein, the Imperial navy probably have a LOT of personnel directly employed under its banner (since it's like the glorious Romania Legio in the commoner's eye, where doing your service here is the fastest way to get a citizenship and climb the social ladder), but I can very well imagine that the Emperor/Empress too can raise levies from the 5 houses and basically make the Imperial Navy 5 times bigger in times of need, with all the private personnel usually serving under Holders.
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I agree with Esna, it does seem like amarrian storyline is walking on that path between modernizing and tradition.
I always thought the Khanid Kingdom storyline/arc would be more in this direction. As Mark726 in his Lore Guide (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3079.0) mention: "The Khanid are seen as a little more progressive, however, since they need to rely on outside trade and new technological development to survive much more so than their Amarr counterparts." (http://freebooted.blogspot.de/2012/02/mark726s-eve-lore-survival-guide-minor_14.html) It goes in the same direction as I saw the faction before: "If his policy is a expression of modernization or realpolitik." (http://wiki.eveonline.com/wikiEN/index.php?title=Talk:Khanid_II&oldid=162597#Rule_over_the_Khanid_Kingdom). But can be change now, how knows what CCPs plan is now.
The news item that started it walks that too, as it is a discussion on how should education be, and the voice of a Heir raised to try and get the Empress to do something. It's an interesting and important storyline to tell, and different to that of the Caldari falling into civil war, or the Republic reorganizing their government, so I believe it should go before another plot of changes in empire government.
The question is the counter argument. What is with the security? And how much resources should the Amarr civil service get and/or the institutions, which train their service personal? I go in this case, with the Sarumites. Having a one better institution would be great, even if it is the biggest one in the empire; but some things, like security, stand in my ordinal order (http://www.thefreedictionary.com/ordinal+scale) above the needs of one group (in this case: the ACS service takers and givers). But, this is how I see the news.
As for modernizing and tradition. I havent seen so much on this front in the empire, but I also think, that any modernization would there go thru the religious "eyes"/"institutions"/"frame work" and would after it had pass this test not seen as a problem form any religious traditionalist. So in short form: Modernization goes in the empire, always hand in hand with faith and its dogmas; and any "thingy" which passes would be seen as "right". So more or less science and religion is seen as one; and as unit there wouldnt be a conflict. But just my 50 cents on this. Could be also totally wrong.
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In the case of simultaneously active clones, there was an event arc way back in the day about this.
It's basically a fast-track to the very very top of CONCORD's most-wanted list. They will actively hunt you down.
It used to be that if you were podded due to server error, and petitioned, the message you got when they gave you back your implants and refunded the clone cost was that your clone had been prematurely activated without a pod breach; CONCORD had located your intact pod but unfortunately the 'self' in it had gone crazy from the sensory deprivation, so they euthanized it. 'but we rinsed off the implants a bit ... here'.
anyone who had that happen, knew someone who had that happen, or had heard about it, would ICly know that simultaneously active clones is possible.
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GAIZ
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5040&tid=2
SOME STUFF WITH THE THINGS IS GOING ON!
Also Articio is my hero. Amarrian Batman.
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It used to be that if you were podded due to server error, and petitioned, the message you got when they gave you back your implants and refunded the clone cost was that your clone had been prematurely activated without a pod breach; CONCORD had located your intact pod but unfortunately the 'self' in it had gone crazy from the sensory deprivation, so they euthanized it. 'but we rinsed off the implants a bit ... here'.
anyone who had that happen, knew someone who had that happen, or had heard about it, would ICly know that simultaneously active clones is possible.
Well, that's a case of 'PF' not being consistent, then, as a prematurely activated clone would not have any ideas about what was going on unless the brain of the pilot in pod was scanned, when the clone was activated prematurely. But then, if the brain was scanned, then the burn scanner would have burned the capsule pilots brain. vOv
Also: That sounds nice, Aldirth, even though Yonis > Aritcio.
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I like where the story is going more and more with each news event. :)
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Linked it on IGS
Load your appropriate rhetoric cannons for broadsides!
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I like where the story is going more and more with each news event. :)
The End is everything. So I hope in the end of this arc Jamyl will be gone :D. I would even re-sub just to put fireworks in the stature near the Amarr Emperor Station.
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And the day after I give up on Amarr RP, my character's Heir gets in the news... :bash:
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What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.
More illegal than killing thousands of other people? Since when has something being illegal stopped anyone, especially those with the wealth that capsuleers have. And since when does Concord has any authority of what is or isn't legal in nullsec or wormhole space?
Anyone has a story about a capsuleer being apprehended by Concord because he did this illegal thing?
Sorry, the no capsuleer does it because Concord thinks its illegal explanation just doesn't make much sense.
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What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.
More illegal than killing thousands of other people? Since when has something being illegal stopped anyone, especially those with the wealth that capsuleers have. And since when does Concord has any authority of what is or isn't legal in nullsec or wormhole space?
Anyone has a story about a capsuleer being apprehended by Concord because he did this illegal thing?
Sorry, the no capsuleer does it because Concord thinks its illegal explanation just doesn't make much sense.
There is much about CONCORD that 'does not make sense'.
Either they are omnipotent and constantly monitoring our every action, or they aren't. The PF seems to waver between the two extremes on a case-by-case basis.
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They are omnipotent (and omniscient) with regards to anything involving our ships, or anything that involves anything under the purview of the SCC (markets, contracts - anything involving ISK) or the CRC (fluid routers, ie, comms).
They are near-omnipotent (and near-omniscient) with regards to anything involving our cloning unless we go way out of our way and put in an almost prohibitively large amount of effort and resources into bypassing them.
What is vague is what makes them choose to act, and when. Not the level of power they have.
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They are near-omnipotent (and near-omniscient) with regards to anything involving our cloning unless we go way out of our way and put in an almost prohibitively large amount of effort and resources into bypassing them.
A Rough Guide to Under the Radar Fun With ClonesTM
1) Clone someone who does not have capsuleer potential. Ideally, it will be someone you know well, or will be able to research with some degree of thoroughness, but never rule out the potential usefulness of Random Drifters.
2) Wipe his/her mind. Replace it with a copy of yours.
3) Eliminate the original non-capsuleer.
4) Do not communicate with the copy ever. Assume it will know what to do (because it, after all, will be you ... in every way but physical).
There may be side effects or unexpected results. Consulting with a physician is suggested before undertaking any cloning program. Void where prohibited, which is just about everywhere...
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What Silas said. It's quite possible to have two individual copies of you running around at once. It's just highly illegal.
More illegal than killing thousands of other people? Since when has something being illegal stopped anyone, especially those with the wealth that capsuleers have. And since when does Concord has any authority of what is or isn't legal in nullsec or wormhole space?
Anyone has a story about a capsuleer being apprehended by Concord because he did this illegal thing?
Sorry, the no capsuleer does it because Concord thinks its illegal explanation just doesn't make much sense.
In the same vein of "CONCORD monitors everything related to the capsule and can prevent us from targeting dropships, planets, etc" it could be argued that since (hard) cloning requires a brain scan in the capsule, CONCORD actually knows where your data is being uploaded. If that's not a registered medical bay, then they will inquire.
However, pirate stations in nullsec have medical bays too ? Would they let you use these clone services ? Are they registered and official by CONCORD rules ? That would not make a lot of sense...
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However, pirate stations in nullsec have medical bays too ? Would they let you use these clone services ? Are they registered and official by CONCORD rules ? That would not make a lot of sense...
They do indeed. Vince's clone is in Curse in one such station and having them be concord sanctioned vats is just silly. I don't know maybe there some hardline basecode of the :jove: variety that prevents premature activation. :psyccp:
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So after reading the new devblog today about the direction the story is taking I had an "OCRAP" moment while talking things over with Samira.
Since the running theme is going to be dissent, internal conflict and world-changing political shifts... This means the Empire is going to get divided into camps, most probably along Heir family lines.
The way I seeing it going: The Empress with the Sarum, Tash-Murkon and Kahnid on her side, against the dissenting Ardishapur, Kor-Azor and Kador.
Maybe, maybe not? But it does have some extremely heavy implications for the Amarr loyalist bloc. Brace yourselves, winter is coming.
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One thing I was thinking of that may hinder involvement in such a conflict is there doesn't seem to be as much factionalism within the Amarr camp. There are plenty of Caldari characters with a wide range of opinions, that they have been vocal about and we've seen some pretty amazing player involvement in that storyline. Many Amarr don't seem as outspoken if they have anti-Sarum views. They certainly aren't seen as often as we've seen anti-Heth characters.
I wonder what would (will?) happen when Ardishapur calls up PIE, since he has before if I remember correctly, to fight for tradition and orthodoxy by burning Sarum down?
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PIE will always choose the Empire.
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One thing I was thinking of that may hinder involvement in such a conflict is there doesn't seem to be as much factionalism within the Amarr camp. There are plenty of Caldari characters with a wide range of opinions, that they have been vocal about and we've seen some pretty amazing player involvement in that storyline. Many Amarr don't seem as outspoken if they have anti-Sarum views. They certainly aren't seen as often as we've seen anti-Heth characters.
I wonder what would (will?) happen when Ardishapur calls up PIE, since he has before if I remember correctly, to fight for tradition and orthodoxy by burning Sarum down?
Excellent question, thus might begin some enriching and engrossing/difficult RP hard decisions.
And Aldrith, Tash-Murkon is not high on Khanid's favorite list.
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That would be very interesting. As an Ardishapur loyalist Samira would be inclined to support him, though she's also not the type to oppose legitimate authority. Which to my understanding is the official PIE stance as well: Empire first, regardless of personal opinions on the state of things.
I don't think the Empire will go in the same direction as the State, though. There isn't enough negatives about Jamyl to warrant a civil war (and judging from how Zaragram II was brought down, the Empire in general is more likely to kneel to a bad leader than to stand up in opposition). I think things will just continue the way they have... internal pressuring and dirty looks at each other, but no actual overt conflict.
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That would be very interesting. As an Ardishapur loyalist Samira would be inclined to support him, though she's also not the type to oppose legitimate authority. Which to my understanding is the official PIE stance as well: Empire first, regardless of personal opinions on the state of things.
I don't think the Empire will go in the same direction as the State, though. There isn't enough negatives about Jamyl to warrant a civil war (and judging from how Zaragram II was brought down, the Empire in general is more likely to kneel to a bad leader than to stand up in opposition). I think things will just continue the way they have... internal pressuring and dirty looks at each other, but no actual overt conflict.
There will be blood.
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Perhaps proxy conflicts between Heirs? Poor Kador doesn't have much of a fleet left.
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Actually, almost all of the Amarr characters I know have thier own micro-loyalties, but IC they are good at hiding them. I've only been able to discover them through OOC convos, since IC there hasn't been much reason to express such loyalties until now.
Aldrith served Kador vassals and likes the Kor-Azor families, while he rather dislikes the Tash-Murkon and Sarum. Mitara, meanwhile, favors Sarum and Ardishapur. However they don't talk about politics, since it hasn't really mattered until now, but there is going to be a HUGE problem between them if the proverbial poo hits the fan.
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Proxy conflicts would be interesting, and fitting for a feudal society. Though still seems somewhat out of character for the Empire as aside from the Khanid Family (and heretical cults) I can't recall reading about any internal conflicts actually spilling out into armed warfare.
*Edit* Nevermind, the Moral Reforms was an armed conflict, wasn't it? Hmm. Would be interesting if we had another one of those.
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That probably has more to do with Holders being banned from having fleets of their own. Now they have capsuleers...
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Proxy conflicts would be interesting, and fitting for a feudal society. Though still seems somewhat out of character for the Empire as aside from the Khanid Family (and heretical cults) I can't recall reading about any internal conflicts actually spilling out into armed warfare.
It happened the last time someone violated the succession protocol. Big civil war, lots of Amarr killing Amarr, and an entire region left the Empire.
Succession protocols have again been violated. When it comes to light (and it will) brother will slay brother.
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That probably has more to do with Holders being banned from having fleets of their own. Now they have capsuleers...
They are banned? How so?
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Heideran VII decreed that holders cannot have space-based fleets of their own after the Khanid Rebellion. It was also mentioned in Kiss of the Soul chronicle.
Note: I think this refers to non-Royal Heir holders, and likely wouldn't apply in the Kingdom either.
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Heideran VII decreed that holders cannot have space-based fleets of their own after the Khanid Rebellion. It was also mentioned in Kiss of the Soul chronicle.
Note: I think this refers to non-Royal Heir holders, and likely wouldn't apply in the Kingdom either.
Ah right, important distinction since the Heirs have their personal fleets for their regions... interesting though!
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Actually, Holders are not banned from having their own fleets as evidenced by many mission storylines, the Miyan - Darabi conflict and other examples. ( http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder_Wars (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Holder_Wars) )The corp description for the Holdfast Syndicate also states that most large Holder families have their own private militaries, while smaller ones have to rely on others for help. What they are banned from is becoming powerful enough to fight off Empire-threatening external and internal threats, as this is for Imperial Navy to take care of.
Also, do note that Kador's fleet was folded into the Imperial Navy. Articio also now has his finghers in the Navy and the Crusade, as told by the most recent Amarr news article. Can we recall another Heir that had some sway in the Navy before his own insurrection?
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The Government of the Amarr Empire wiki article does mention that exceptions exist. "At times, Holders are able to defy the edict, particularly when allowed by permissive heirs in the absence of strong central authority, but such situations were rare." It is also a ban just of space based fleets so they're allowed ground forces, orbital defenses, etc... I wonder if they'd be allowed to have non-warp capable ships? This does sort of get into the facepalm nature of missions in general.
Edit: All that said. I think it's more likely we see stuff like the Holder Wars you linked, than a gold-plated version of the State unrest.
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The Empress is not part of the Sarum house anymore, it is part of taking the Throne.
Also the Sarum are among the more conservative houses, so they might actually turn against the Empress.
At the moment I don't see anybody except Khanid standing by her if feces hits the air conditioning unit.
Everybody else has more to gain if she would disappear.
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Yeah mostly.
Her traditionnal enemies being liberals, Kor Azor and Tash Murkon.
Sarumites and Ardishapurites probably sharing similar conservative views on her legitimacy.
Kador have been slapped for being an idiot and probably still is resentful.
Khanid spits on traditions, so probably a (shifty) ally.
_________
We need more intra factionnal conflict, like in the old times. \o/
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Actually, on the other hand, at this point I'd say she has quite a few allies among the various heirs as well: Tash-Murkon benefited greatly from her rule, particularly the closer ties with the Caldari. Khanid knows that a revolt based on Sarum's violating the Sacred Flesh taboo isn't likely to go well for him either. And do you really think she's doesn't still have the House Sarum situation firmly under her thumb?
I'd say her main opponents are Ardishapur and (possibly) Kor-Azor, depending on how this current thing goes. Kador is also leaning away due to past conflicts, but has the potential to swing back under certain conditions.
Everybody else has more to gain if she would disappear.
I really don't think so. The Empire has already had a truly incredible turnover rate among leadership, and often feels to have been the punching bag of the storyline along with the Gallente of recent times. Do we really need -more- of the same? I'll be kind of saddened if CCP decides to basically copy/paste a civil war onto several factions.
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You know things are bad when the Republic are the ones with the most unified leadership.
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Words
There will be blood. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2q1S7jRLZ70)
Though the same. :P
Words
Excellent question, thus might begin some enriching and engrossing/difficult RP hard decisions.
And Aldrith, Tash-Murkon is not high on Khanid's favorite list.
Actually the Tash-Murkon family is one, with he has worked the most inside the Empire (see here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Modern_Era_of_the_Amarr_Empire#Tash-Murkon_Ascendency), here (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2658), here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Economy_of_the_Amarr_Empire#CONCORD_Era)). But I dont think this "friendship" is that big that the kingdom would go to war for the Tash-Murkon Family.
The Empress is not part of the Sarum house anymore, it is part of taking the Throne.
Also the Sarum are among the more conservative houses, so they might actually turn against the Empress.
At the moment I don't see anybody except Khanid standing by her if feces hits the air conditioning unit.
Everybody else has more to gain if she would disappear.
The weird thinh about this, I could imagine that CCP thinks that a Jamyl-Khanid alliance would be possible. As for me, I dont think so, but I also dont start now a boring 30 page essay about it :lol:. The only way, that could somehow fit is, that in Eterne eyes the kingdom is de jure vassal state of the Empire (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793). So that Jamyl just could bring out a law, with the topic that Kingdom forces have to fight for her etc..... and threaten the King by not doing so, that she will sign degrees which undermine his legitimacy (1) and the survival of the kingdom (2) (like: (1) a law which of sets him off as Family leader and that family members can again bar arms again etc..... (2) that all caldaris have to go/"move out" form the kingdom and that no khanid can talk with a caldari etc.... and that all economic ties have to be broken etc.... ).
As for me, I have a different view on the kingdom as CCP, but is very off topic; which would change alot into this power play.
So after reading the new devblog today about the direction the story is taking I had an "OCRAP" moment while talking things over with Samira.
Since the running theme is going to be dissent, internal conflict and world-changing political shifts... This means the Empire is going to get divided into camps, most probably along Heir family lines.
The way I seeing it going: The Empress with the Sarum, Tash-Murkon and Kahnid on her side, against the dissenting Ardishapur, Kor-Azor and Kador.
Maybe, maybe not? But it does have some extremely heavy implications for the Amarr loyalist bloc. Brace yourselves, winter is coming.
I dont know about: "Empress with the Sarum, Tash-Murkon and Kahnid on her side, against the dissenting Ardishapur, Kor-Azor and Kador."
If Khanid stays in the lore as vassal, which is self-destructive and a window-licker I can see this alliance. Otherwise I cant see how CCP will pull this off. Moreover as Khanid has lay down any claims to the throne. Thats also the reason I dont think he will be a direct power player in any match up. The kingdom could support a Royal-Family..... Yes, but making it to a player/"war faction" inside the Empire has some huge problems (again, I try stop not to make a 60 page essay :lol:). As I see it, they are more or less all lose. I mean the five heir families. So, that a alliance of "actualities of the situation"/Gegebenheiten/"political reality" is more likely, then a alliance out of common "world outlook"/Weltanschauung/philosophy/ideology. It means in short form: that the tricker would be more important, then the "world look". And this tricker could be many things: Jamyls dead and nobody gives up his claims and the trails going nuts (1); a rebellion against Jamyl (2); a secession after a failed trail (3) etc......
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I think the problems of the Empire a blown out of proportion, here. We have two news articles that hint at possible problems amongst heirs and the Empress and everyone seems to see a bloody revolt coming. <,<
I think here is the wish father to the thought. If I'd wish to see Jamyl Sarum fall or the Empire at large and I look hard enough then I will see the signs of the Empire's imminent doom everywhere. Just as if I look obsessively for 7s, the number starts to be everywhere. I don't think anyone here can see where the Amarr 'plot' is going, save alone being able to see what the Amarr plot really is. Compared to the other three factions, the newsitems for the Amarr are pretty broad and leave plenty of space for interpretation, speculation and imagination.
If one looks at it impassionately there is little reason, yet, to turn into a doomsayer and to oracle that "there will be blood" or "brother will slay brother".
I agree with Esna.
The Empress has the backing of the TC and the Imperial Navy owns a lot to her, the Sarum family (that is more of a pragmatic than a conservative bent) is mot certainly in her pocket (as they certainly would loose a lot if the Empress would be toppled), Tash-Murkon is happy about the deepened relationship with the Caldari and the reconciliation with Khanid, Khanid doesn't seem to have a problem with Tash-Murkon either, quite the contrary seems true with Catiz having been the one apparently initiating the re-approach and thus successfully, Aritcio has been rewarded with the post of chancellor, so far and seems to be largely a good vassel to the throne, even though he doesn't mind too much about the ideas of some of his vassals as to his responsibilities to hear them. Kador doesn't seem to be in the position to say anything against the Empress and the only one who really has a problem with her is, it appears, largely isolated.
There's a trend to a consolidation of greater Amarria and even what Ardishapur did in the Mandate fits in there, in a way. Just because the process isn't entirely frictionless it doesn't follow that we will soon see something akin' to what the Noldor did to the Teleri when they didn't hand their ships over to the former.
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I agree with Nicoletta. I don't see the Amarr storyline going to a civil war. On one hand, because it would be copy/paste. But mostly because of the scope: the first news we had on the Caldari was a protest crushed by Tibus Heth and next news were equally big until today's civilian massacre; meanwhile, the Empire gets news on education and internal power inside Heir families. Not even oposition. Either they want to play it real slow, or this is going elsewhere.
It will have blood, that for sure, but I believe it is more in the line of reform/stagnation, and probably centralized/decentralized government. Not in the civil war line.
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I wouldn't be much of an 'uprising' if it's all tea and crumpets :P
Heads 'gonna roll.
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Jamyl and the Empire had enough to endure by what TonyG forced upon them, give them a break, don't project your hate for the writer of TEA on the innocent characters. ;)
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I also don't think there will be a civil war in the Empire.
As true as it is that the emperors sever ties with their houses when they move to join the Emperor Family, that doesn't mean that their home house don't benefit from their rule. House Sarum is on top right now, and they're not going to stand against Jamyl to threaten that. Personally I frowned when House Sarum were providing security for the 514 Summit (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/514_(Chronicle)), but it goes to show that Jamyl definitely has her home house on her side.
Aritcio Kor-Azor has been made Imperial Chancellor. I don't think Jamyl would have made him the third most powerful individual in the Empire if she had suspected him to lead a rebellion. However, it could also have been a way to purchase his loyalty - or a way to keep him too busy to plot against her. As Imperial Chancellor, he not only has to prioritize matters of the Empire over matters of his house, but if he would rebel it's possible that many of his vassals would consider his abandonment of the office to be ruining their own influence in the Empire. The fortune of House Kor-Azor is very much tied to the Throne.
Catiz is progressive and benefits greatly from Jamyl's reign. Jamyl should recognize her as a good ally, and treat her accordingly. This may be the first time the Udorian house is treated fairly, or more than fairly. It's unlikely that the Tash-Murkon would turn against the throne.
House Kador was neutered when Jamyl confiscated their fleet. Even if they rebel they don't have anything to rebel with. The move would have upset Kador and most of the other houses though. If the throne is actually going to enforce Heideran's Decree, it will be very problematic for the holders. Also, I guess it's possible that the confiscated fleet is still loyal to Kador, and if he rebels they would still rebel with him.
Ardishapur... Ardishapur is probably the only one who might be both inclined and willing to depose the Empress. Giving him the Ammatar Mandate doesn't seem to have made him much more loyal, but it's hard to tell. Giving heirs like Yonis and Aritcio senior positions in government means that they have a vested interest in keeping Jamyl alive and on the throne - because the minute succession trials are on the schedule, their odds of continued power (and life) are rather slim.
Returning the Khanid Kingdom to the Empire and giving the King a Privy Council seat was also a great move by Jamyl to strengthen her position. She's telling the other heirs: "If you're not loyal, I have others who are willing to fill your shoes." And Khanid is allowed to maintain his own fleet and army...
You have to keep in mind that the Heirs (as an institution) are used to ruling their domains for centuries before having to take the suicide lottery tickets. The current heirs are exceptionally inexperienced by imperial standards, and as Karsoth demonstrated they are more interested in ruling their own lands than pushing for the throne. The empire is all about stability. Changing rulers and Heirs several times in a decade has probably not happened for thousands of years, so the current heirs are much more inclined to be tolerant of anything that lets them be alive at the moment - not necessarily out of narcissism, but out of concern for the stability of the Empire and their own realms. That's why they tolerated Karsoth. That's why they voted Jamyl to the throne. And that's why they aren't kicking her off it.
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I couldn't have said it better, Horatius 'Wordsmith' Caul. :)
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I'll say again, if the next expansion were a mere Heth Uprising they wouldn't be showing all 4 up there on the deb blog.
It doesn't mean Jamyl will go, but it will mean she is going to be challenged.
"Shit's gonna get real"
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People were saying that "there have to be succession trials soon" dor year and we didn't get them until now. I'm really not planning to hold my breath for the 'shit gonna getting real'. Maybe she's just up there because, you know, she'd otherwise have felt left out, no?
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People were saying that "there have to be succession trials soon" dor year and we didn't get them until now. I'm really not planning to hold my breath for the 'shit gonna getting real'. Maybe she's just up there because, you know, she'd otherwise have felt left out, no?
Have a little faith :P
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Have a little faith :P
Why should I limit the amount of faith I put into this? :P
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I don't think we're going to see a civil war in the Empire.
Even if a large portion of capsuleers, and at least one of the Heirs see Jamyl for what she is - a walking violation of one of the highest and most important taboos in Amarrian society - the vast majority of the public is blinded by faith and loyalty or simply doesn't give a shit. A civil war over it would be hugely unpopular, and heavily stacked in Jamyl's favor.
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I'll say again, if the next expansion were a mere Heth Uprising they wouldn't be showing all 4 up there on the deb blog.
It doesn't mean Jamyl will go, but it will mean she is going to be challenged.
"Shit's gonna get real"
Actually, according to someone in the dev blog discussion, next expansion won't be called Uprising in any case.
As for shit getting real, it is going to, but there are many ways for it to get real. Doesn't need to be a civil war: can be a challenge between different views, could be a new Tetrimon-like theological arc, or maybe one like the Speaker of Truths in which a Heir is put to trial, or who knows. Could even be something to do with other nations (Minmatarr or Gallente, probably, as their arcs aren't too clear either).
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Yes, I personally see much more potential for cloak-and-dagger politics, complicated Theological decrees and the manipulation of ancient traditions to achieve non-violent power grabs in this arc instead of popular uprising.
We're Amarrians. We keep that shit classy.
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Yes, I personally see much more potential for cloak-and-dagger politics, complicated Theological decrees and the manipulation of ancient traditions to achieve non-violent power grabs in this arc instead of popular uprising.
We're Amarrians. We keep that shit classy.
100% agreed. I still remember the Darabi/Miyan conflict, during half of which we didn't really know who was the "evil plotter" and who the victim, or the Tetrimon arc that faced complicated moral choices with the Speaker on one side and Articio on the other, etc. Good shit, and amarrian kind of shit too. Golden. :)
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Yes. It is the contextual political environnement that seems at work here.
My own view was more about the general political tendencies lying behind.
I think that's this political context that actually makes the Empress not on the verge of losing every bit of power considering how ideologically she may be isolated.
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We're Amarrians. We keep that shit classy.
8)
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Speaking of cloak and dagger politics, did anyone else notice that the High Deacon that approved Artico Kor-Azor's methods of rule was killed under suspicious circumstances three years ago? It was officially a terrorist attack by the Bloody Hands of Matar, and he was supposed to be meeting the Empress for a simple holy day rite. The Empress narrowly missed the meeting by cancelling 20 minutes prior to the explosion. Suspicious? I fucking think so.
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3769&tid=4 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3769&tid=4)
So, the way I see it, this whole thing could have gone three ways:
1.) Exactly as it did as reported, the Bloody Hands wanted to kill both the High Deacon and the Empress but Jamyl got lucky. Alternatively, perhaps she really was killed but she cloned and the offical report covers up that part.
2.) Jamyl got word of the Bloody Hands attack before arriving at the meeting and cancelled to avoid it, but did not inform the High Deacon. She used the opportunity to get Mervan Moritok out of the way for some reason...
3.) Jamyl was behind the whole thing, and she had the High Deacon killed for her own purposes.
Now we find out that Mervan was a solid part of Heideran's old regiem and that he perhaps approved of something Artico was doing that she does not approve of. EVERYTHING IS CONNECTED.
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Get the tinfoil!
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Now, to add to that speculation, Aldrith, the Empress keeps the seat of High Deacon vacant. As the TC ruling on Jamyls return being a miracle can only be reevaluated by the TC and would, given the priority of the ruling, certainly necessitate the High Deacon to be involved, one wonders why the Empress didn't find a suitable successor for good old Moritok...
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Nice! I love conspiracies. Pity I no longer play old-seph, or he'd love this. :S
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Didn't notice this one before:
Ardishapur Family to implement educational overhaul (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5043&tid=2)
Ardishapur Victor!
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The game isn't over yet, I'd wait with calling victor. Strengthening education is good, though - he should make up a program for Amarrian capsuleers. ;)
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Didn't notice this one before:
Ardishapur Family to implement educational overhaul (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5043&tid=2)
Ardishapur Victor!
Weird that it doesnt mention the: Ardishapur Institute of Education* (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=2582)
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Kor-Azor Holders stand against House in protest against think-tanks (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5044&tid=2)
Some words from Darabi and Miyan again.
Other usefuls: Right Honorable is used as an honorific, further confirming that the Empire seems to use all the standard feudal styles. An additional confirmation comes from Heirs being referred to as "The Heir [House]". Much in the same way as feudal lords were referred to as "The Lord [Fief]". Holders are therefore likely also to be referred to as either "The Lord/Lady [House]" or "The Holder [House]" in formal declarations.
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Kor-Azor Holders stand against House in protest against think-tanks (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5044&tid=2)
Some words from Darabi and Miyan again.
Other usefuls: Right Honorable is used as an honorific, further confirming that the Empire seems to use all the standard feudal styles. An additional confirmation comes from Heirs being referred to as "The Heir [House]". Much in the same way as feudal lords were referred to as "The Lord [Fief]". Holders are therefore likely also to be referred to as either "The Lord/Lady [House]" or "The Holder [House]" in formal declarations.
Thats what you get Royal Heir Kor-Azor; when you think, you can outsmart/flank the old checks-and-balances that many entrenched institutions and local barons* (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Khanid_Kingdom_%28Chronicle%29) are forming, which makes the empire so great :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:.
So we will see what the Empress says on this case, as the article rightful says: She can make such decisions not the TC High Deacon. Even in the case, that royal heir Aritcio gets a "green light". I couldnt imagine, that she would give Lord Aritcio Kor-Azor a 100% free pass. More likely that if he can stay with this new institutions, that the vassal Holders get some other noble rights to compensate for their losses. So that the new status quo, would close to the pre-"secret advisory boards" status.
Second option which I could think of, the secret advisory boards get banned. Point, end of story. :D
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Never trust lord Miyan! Whatever he says is venom! Even if he may be right! xD
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Other usefuls: Right Honorable is used as an honorific, further confirming that the Empire seems to use all the standard feudal styles. An additional confirmation comes from Heirs being referred to as "The Heir [House]". Much in the same way as feudal lords were referred to as "The Lord [Fief]". Holders are therefore likely also to be referred to as either "The Lord/Lady [House]" or "The Holder [House]" in formal declarations.
It's not surprising that the English-language representation of Amarr feudal titles and honorifics are based on actual English feudal titles and honorifics.
The way titles and names are used is a bit idiosyncratic throughout the PF. In the past I've noticed that many Amarr nobles tended to be referred to in royal style (by first name only). This is definitely not consistent though, and I'd say most references to holders use family names.
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Lords Miyan and Darabi also feature in the amarr epic arc.
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It seems to go on...
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5052&tid=2
http://community.eveonline.com/news/newsFromEve.asp?of=true&newsTitle=empress-jamyl-i-announces-empire-intent-to-welcome-clone-soldiers-with-open-arms
and
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5054&tid=2
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Reclaiming! \o/
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speaking of reclaiming. http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5054&tid=2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5054&tid=2)
Any thoughts on this. It seems to me to imply the Empress is totally cool with reclaiming the hell out of any territory held my the 24th IC. That would lead to all kinds of arguements saying Amarr could go nuts raiding any territory that the Empire has the loosest claim to (ie: all the Republic, jove space, the whole universe.)
Edited to correct the link
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That article is what I was \o/ing about.
It should be noted though, that we don't yet know Jamyl's opinion on things. That's House Sarum's doing, the Empress isn't really Sarum anymore. I'm hoping that Jamyl will support it nonetheless, though.
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We don't even know to what exact extent the news article is really telling us what's happening there, as the article is based on a leaked FIO document, mainly.
It seems the Sarum Family has been building flotillas of transport barges and trained small-sized squads, but we don't know yet how Merimeth intends to use them, other than the allegations of the leaked FIO report.
So, to begin with, we don't even know whether this is really meant to be for the purpose of slave raids. Also, even if it's for slave raids, it doesn't mean that the Empress is cool with it, as Samira pointed out, because the Empress is not the head of House Sarum and might speak out against Merimeth's intentions. I doubt so, though.
Now, even if Merimeth intends to raid for slaves, of course those opposed to the Amarr will claim that Amarr could go nuts and attempt to raid any territory the empire has the loosest claim to. That is something they already do, though, it's nothing new. They're claiming it all the time and of course they will claim that these actions show that they have been right all along.
Now, then, so be it. I don't see how that is much of a change, though. I, meanwhile, am happy to see something happening in Amarr.
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My guess is that the report is actually referring to DUST-related infrastructure and personnel.
DUST uses (or will use) 4-6 people per squad, iirc, so there's "small" - and transport barges could very well be a reference to the MCC or war barges.
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My guess is that the report is actually referring to DUST-related infrastructure and personnel.
DUST uses (or will use) 4-6 people per squad, iirc, so there's "small" - and transport barges could very well be a reference to the MCC or war barges.
That were my thoughts as well. :D
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The fun question is, do we have enough available IC for our characters to make that kind of guess? I'm not entirely sure that we do yet - which means that if we're right and it is a DUST reference, the deliberately vague and provocative wording of the article is going to result in some amusing drama when we do find out what Merimeth is up to. :lol:
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I personally think that Nico has (either) not enough available to make that kind of guess and(/or), being a Sarumite herself, wouldn't speculate about such in public/with outsiders as that could jeopardize a success of any surprise effects at the first deployment of such a force.
Also, yes, I'd like to see Sarumite DUST troopers pour out of transport barges while everyone expected slavers with their dogs.
By the way, I'd suggest that reading the news articles gives a hint in that direction: Empress Jamyl I announces Empire intent to welcome clone soldiers with open arms (http://Empress Jamyl I announces Empire intent to welcome clone soldiers with open arms).
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Meh! Not really looking forward to trying to defend Sarum ships during a slave raid, especially right now since they'll probably be blow up before they can do anything.
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One of the DUST corporations for Amarr has the backing of Sarum Family.
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I don't see the slavery thing being what will come, Aldrith. ^^ Hear what Lou is saying.
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If we follow the pattern of all the new PF / Life events tying with Dust events you can bet good ISK the Amarr arc will likely feature Sarumite Dusties bringing the Holy Wrath.
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I agree with Silas. Not only is a slave raid likely, it is almost certain at this point.
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I certainly hope not. Amarr have spent the last several years shaking off the mantel of being the sex-crime-comitting, slave-abusing, completely-ridiculous-to-the-point-of-no-seriousness villains of EVE. The last thing we need now is for the whole faction to roll straight back over into being the "bad guys" again.
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If we follow the pattern of all the new PF / Life events tying with Dust events you can bet good ISK the Amarr arc will likely feature Sarumite Dusties bringing the Holy Wrath.
About damn time!! :)
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Frankly I'm just becomming resigned that CCP will never write in enough redeemable good into the Empire's background that we'll ever seen as anything even remotely 'good' from a modern point of view. But if we're going to be evil we might as well wear the role well.
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Amen brother
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I don't see why a Sarum DUST raid has to be a bad thing. It certainly fits with the background of that house. Maybe instead of a slave raid it'd be a coordinated capsuleer and dustie push to retake Kourmonen or Arzad.
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I certainly hope not. Amarr have spent the last several years shaking off the mantel of being the sex-crime-comitting, slave-abusing, completely-ridiculous-to-the-point-of-no-seriousness villains of EVE. The last thing we need now is for the whole faction to roll straight back over into being the "bad guys" again.
We can be aggressive slavers and still be good guys.
The Empire doesn't need to fold into a Western moral paradigm, nor should it.
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The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.
Frankly, in recent times the ban on external slave-taking is one of the few things that has made it possible to RP an Amarr. When we get mobbed with the SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY arguments, one of the best things we had to respond with is "Hey, you've got Sansha and Angels and whatnot actually raiding your territory. We've got some modicum of an agreement. Might want to re-evaluate your priorities." That gets shot out from under us, that removes just about the only leg Amarr had left to stand on.
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The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.
The Republic and the State already have a one-up on us for breaking CONCORD agreements.
Frankly, in recent times the ban on external slave-taking is one of the few things that has made it possible to RP an Amarr. When we get mobbed with the SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY arguments, one of the best things we had to respond with is "Hey, you've got Sansha and Angels and whatnot actually raiding your territory. We've got some modicum of an agreement. Might want to re-evaluate your priorities." That gets shot out from under us, that removes just about the only leg Amarr had left to stand on.
The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3205&tid=2) (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3203&tid=2)).
What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it. Get rid of the slave abuse, the Vitoxin, the breeding colonies, TCMCs, etc. Focus on the spiritual education. Our slavery is entirely different from the Angels and the Nation, but it shouldn't be because "we don't do it". It's a core part of Amarr culture. It's seen as a good thing. Build on the why it's a good thing. Non-Amarr may not accept those arguments, but oh well. We don't operate on the same moral paradigm. We should be able to argue that it's good according to Amarr morality.
The Empire has something that almost no real slave nation has ever had... we view slaves as actual people worth saving and uplifting. The "free labor" thing shouldn't be attached to Amarrian slavery at all IMO. That kind of slavery should be completely incompatible with Amarrian morals. Sure, some regions (like TM and Kingdom) and some Holders might enjoy those benefits, but these should be the exceptions, like the Refusards, who are abusing the system and will get in trouble if they don't keep a check on it.
What I think is that the TC and the Speakers should put their feet down regarding slavery abuse, and start ensuring that proper spiritual education is what is occurring. Encouraging release of slaves who have been enlightened, cracking down on people who are arbitrarily cruel to slaves, cutting out the breeding program entirely, and preferably banning Vitoxin and TCMCs which both run counter to spiritual development.
Oh yeah, and build on the fact that free Amarr actually work beside their slaves from time to time. That's something that's mandated in the Scriptures and is shown in a Chronicle.
[spoiler]"Chosen, you are first before God.
You are the True and the Faithful.
But in such a state must you hold yourselves high above all.
And constantly prove yourself worthy of Gods Love.
How can such a gift be repaid,
Other than to toil all our days,
In his glorious service,
According to his will,
Serving him always,
Bearing him first in our thoughts,
Always must we strive to show him our worth,
For we are the Chosen, Blessed above all."
- The Scriptures, Anoyia's Exhortation to the Faithful[/spoiler]
[spoiler]"The Amarr Empire kept slaves, and on this planet some of those slaves tilled the fields alongside the acolytes, while others, not yet ascended, lived and worked in [the mines]." - Merely Disassembled (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=22-03-10)[/spoiler]
We don't have to get rid of slavery in order to be able to play good Amarr characters. We have plenty of legs to stand on, we just need to use them and, hopefully, get CCP to start acknowledging them as well. The Theology Council needs to start doing its job of moral policing.
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The thing is, Samira, even in a lot of the EVE PF Amarrian slavery has been handled ham-handedly, depicting mostly the cruelty and injustice rather than any potential good. Then, any 'moralist' Amarrians get drowned out and eliminated by the power-hungry, as in the case with Arzad Hamri in the old days or the TCMC-favoring Holders winning out against more traditional ones. Then there's the nightmare of breeding slaves like they are cattle, eugenics and all (which should by all means be completely against the Amarrian faith), casually using slaves as disposable labor forces (again, immoral even to Amarrians) and blowing up planets when rebellions start (derp). This results in players seeing the faction as evil, and they play accordingly. 'Morally corrupt' slavery, even by the Amarrian standard, has been written into the background so thoroughly it would take a major reformation to root it out. Alas, I don't think the fiction team is interested in that at the moment.
Like I said, we might as well wear the mantle. The concepts of religion, slavery, authoritarianism and feudalistic social classism are always going to be seen as backwards to the average EVE player OOC, and only through suspension of belief (which many players lack, even RP'ers) would they be able to say 'Hey, they're not so bad!' No, the Amarr are bad from any sane modern person's view, and only people who drink the kool-aid IC (only Amarrians) think otherwise.
It's futile to struggle against it in any way but subtle pressures. You're in a highly stratified empire that wants to rule all of humanity through a singular religion to the exclusion of all others. Social structure and culture ensures that it will remain so for at least the next 100 - 1,000 years, much longer than the game will last. There are going to be tons of things a liberal/'nice Amarr' character is going to dislike, but they have to be patient and deal with it unless they want to become apostate or traitor.
As far as current affairs in the Empire, hopefully the story will flesh out more soon and we'll be able to clearly see who is reformist, who is extreme zealot, who is amoral power-hungry and who is the messianic ray of hope. I believe the slave raid will happen but that there are going to be a lot of people in the Empire who don't like it, maybe even the Empress. We'll have to wait and see.
Even so, despite the fact a slave raid might cause friction within the Empire, people outside of it are not going to care. The Empire did so-and-so and they're evil.
However, since I've given up on seeing the Empire do 'good things' in the cluster for a change, I would instead like the other factions get darker along with us. CCP has been doing a good job of this with the Gallente with the Black Eagles and creeper Roden. The Caldari are mixed, which is really refreshing and fascinating to watch. However, the Amarr/Minmatar conflict is still boringly black and white; crotchety old evil church slavers vs. romantically free space natives. If we're going to be mostly crotchety old church slavers forever, I want to be fighting barbarian savages with an ancient grudge that causes them to do some equally horrible, or even worse things. If we're going to be trying to enslave the Minmatar we should have a better reason than "because religion". Why not "enslave them because they're murdering our people whenever they can get their hands on them"? I really don't think the Minmatar military will be very restrained when it comes to Amarrian civilians. We already know they treat Amarrian POW's terribly, but the fact the Minmatar can be really cruel as well should be highlighted. Then maybe we can say all of the races are portrayed in a morally grey/dark grey light.
And before any Minmatar players say that the Republic doesn't have a dark side when it comes to Amarrians, I kick your sacred fern.
(http://i.imgur.com/Uvc6kTf.gif)
GOOD DAY.
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The thing is, Samira, even in a lot of the EVE PF Amarrian slavery has been handled ham-handedly, depicting mostly the cruelty and injustice rather than any potential good.
I never said I disagreed with this. I said that CCP needs to stop focusing on these and to instead build on the positive aspects.
Then, any 'moralist' Amarrians get drowned out and eliminated by the power-hungry, as in the case with Arzad Hamri in the old days or the TCMC-favoring Holders winning out against more traditional ones.
Arzad was too liberal. There's a careful balance. By Amarr traditions, he was completely neglecting his role as a teacher. He was "spoiling" his slaves. Also, the TCMC Holders didn't win out. The Theology Council simply refused to hear the case and make a hard decision.
Then there's the nightmare of breeding slaves like they are cattle, eugenics and all (which should by all means be completely against the Amarrian faith), casually using slaves as disposable labor forces (again, immoral even to Amarrians) and blowing up planets when rebellions start (derp). This results in players seeing the faction as evil, and they play accordingly. 'Morally corrupt' slavery, even by the Amarrian standard, has been written into the background so thoroughly it would take a major reformation to root it out. Alas, I don't think the fiction team is interested in that at the moment.
I wasn't saying these things don't exist. I'm saying that they're wrong and should be stamped out. What we shouldn't do is cast away slavery entirely in order to appeal to Western morals. Fix the system, don't throw it away.
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I wasn't saying these things don't exist. I'm saying that they're wrong and should be stamped out. What we shouldn't do is cast away slavery entirely in order to appeal to Western morals. Fix the system, don't throw it away.
Oh definitely, I was completely agreeing with you on this front. But unfortunately that's all up to CCP, not us.
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I don't want to see the corruption rooted out from the Amarr. It's part of their grimdark side, like every faction has its own.
However, like Aldrith said, I would rather like to see CCP emphasizing a little more on the "good", poetic sides of the Amarr, while darkening the other ones accordingly. I would like to learn more of a contrasted Amarr Empire where mistreated and miserable slaves walk in the same streets as intellectuals, philosophers, ageless scientists. I would like to see more of the religious/spiritual res publica (as in the public thing from the latin root) forums, agoras, and debates the Empire used to have in PF iirc.
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To be clear: I don't think ANYONE was asking for slavery to be ended outright.
Problem with what you're suggesting, Samira, is that when you have the Amarr on the one hand trying to "moralize" slavery, but on the other hand they are abrogating treaties to aggressively drag people in to slavery. When people look at the latter, the former is going to be very, very, very hard to make sense of IC.
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You know what would be a really cool twist, actually? That Sarum fleet isn't meant to take slaves from occupied Minmatar territory, it's meant to evacuate Amarrian civilians from the Bleak Lands and Devoid that are too poor to leave themselves. The 24th Imperial Crusade is currently losing most systems, so this would actually make a lot of sense. Makes the Empire look a little better, makes the Minmatar look a little worse, catches everyone off-guard and messes with their perceptions. Perfect.
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Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the new transport ships aren't going to be retrieving new slaves? There's always the possibility that an event could happen where those transports are used to extract the Dusties from Caldari/Gallente space after their major event is done. The Empress did just openly tell the Dusties they have a place with us, but nothing was said as to how they Dusties were going to make their way to the Empire. :P
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Many bitter, yet fruitful, words of delicious truth.
(http://i.imgur.com/Uvc6kTf.gif)
GOOD DAY.
I love you Aldrith, that is all.
PS. Yeah, fuck that sacred fern.
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http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2)
Wat.
Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(
Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.
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http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2)
Wat.
Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(
Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.
Perhaps the actual disposition of forces and 'situation on the ground' is not information easily shared with most Imperial Citizens?
East Asia has always been at war with Eurasia. GLORIOUS VICTORY
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Has anyone considered the possibility that maybe, just maybe, the new transport ships aren't going to be retrieving new slaves? There's always the possibility that an event could happen where those transports are used to extract the Dusties from Caldari/Gallente space after their major event is done. The Empress did just openly tell the Dusties they have a place with us, but nothing was said as to how they Dusties were going to make their way to the Empire. :P
I really don't see a slave raid happening, yet. I can't rule it out, but really, some Amarr in here seem to whine like the Caldari that their precious Titan will crash on Caldari Prime.
Honestly, I have RP'd a slave keeper for quite some time now and hand a lot of debates with non-Amarr and when I put the arguments on the table most opponents had a hard time to condemn Amarrian slavery in general while being okay with the prison system of their own faction or how they themselves assign legal guardians to those incapable of caring for his or her own interests and such things.
What the usual westerner forgets is that on a rational basis, slavery isn't easily dealt with. We all feel it to be bad, but why it is bad, while it's okay to have prisoners do (forced) labor, while it's okay to force people into conscription in case of war, while it's okay to have legal guardians watching over the psychically or mentally disabled and have them work is inclusion and not a bad thing, ... that are some pretty tough questions that simply aren't answered by "because that's not slavery and slavery is bad".
What hampers Amarrian RP most, in my humble opinion, have always been those people that portrayed (thier) Amarr as mustache twirling no-gooders on the one hand and those that portayed (their) Amarr as thinking that slavery is bad and really needs to be abolished.
And while I agree that
The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3205&tid=2) (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3203&tid=2)).
What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it.
I don't think that more focus on the 'good' sides should be done by white-washing it. Vitoc and slave abuse happen. So does child abuse, irl, mostly by family members - is the institution of family therefore bad? Thing is, if you white-wash slavery, it stops being realistic. Thus, focus on it's good sides, yes, eliminating all the bad sides? Nah, please don't. Keep it realistic.
We don't have to get rid of slavery in order to be able to play good Amarr characters. We have plenty of legs to stand on, we just need to use them and, hopefully, get CCP to start acknowledging them as well.
True, but seven so we do not need slave raids in violation of agreements the Empire has to establish our Amarr-ness. <,< Esna has a good point when he says:
The problem is, Samira, that if the Amarr are portrayed as the ones running around and breaking all their treaties and agreements, that portrays them as objectively bad.
And that
The Republic and the State already have a one-up on us for breaking CONCORD agreements.
doesn't mitigate that point a bit. Breaking agreements isn't something that can be sold as good, no. Especially not by saying "but you did, too!". Two wrongs don't make a right. Amarr should keep it's agreements. Taking slaves in conquered systems isn't in direct breach with said agreements, though, rather it's not clear whether it is against those or not. vOv
Still, I'd favour if the Sarumite troops won't be used for slave raids, and against what some people in here say, I don't see it coming and especially I don't see it as inevitable.
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http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2)
Wat.
Cellebrations for victories in the Bleak Lands? When we are on the verge of losing all those systems again and have already lost all of the contestable systems in Devoid? :(
Someone's going to get embarrassed. Again.
Don't you hear, we're winning. CCP has spoken. ;P
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Apologies for the forthcoming wall of text.
And while I agree that
The best argument we have regarding slavery shouldn't be that we don't do raids, it should be that we A) release slaves once they achieve spiritual enlightenment, B ) educate slaves, both academically and spiritually, and C) ban the use of TCMC's (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3205&tid=2) (outside of Tash-Murkon and the Kingdom because they're bloody heretics (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3203&tid=2)).
What would be better for slavery isn't to abolish it, or cease taking slaves, but to enforce the actual positive aspects of it.
I don't think that more focus on the 'good' sides should be done by white-washing it. Vitoc and slave abuse happen. So does child abuse, irl, mostly by family members - is the institution of family therefore bad? Thing is, if you white-wash slavery, it stops being realistic. Thus, focus on it's good sides, yes, eliminating all the bad sides? Nah, please don't. Keep it realistic.
Not what I was saying at all. I'm not saying the bad sides should be completely and utterly removed. Afterall, something I really try to hit on with my own RP is that you can play an Amarr/Slavery-supporting Minmatar while also playing the slavery card straight.
What I do want action taken against, though, is those aspects that are wrong by Amarrian morality. I like to point to the TCMC debate for this, since that's exactly what I want to see. It shows that the Empire does not have a binary good/evil view on slavery, but rather a complicated system of variables, that certain methods are considered good and certain methods are considered evil. Sansha's Nation is another good example... Sansha actually thought that the Empire would be his ally because they were slavers, and was utterly flabbergasted when the Empire went, "NOPE. Your kind of slavery is bad, m8. /glassplanet." It established that the Empire understands that there is "good" slavery and "bad" slavery.
The Empire needs to have specific rules for how you conduct slavery, rules that ensure that it is something noble (by Amarrian morality) rather than something evil. I want to see CCP move away from the TonyG "Empire is ebil cackling slavers" crap and go back to recognizing that there are lines that the Empire won't cross, that it actually has integrity. That's not to say these things should never happen, afterall there's always the exceptions and exploitations and abuses; I do not advocate "whitewashing" at all. But there needs to at least be that conflict. Vitoc should not be accepted simply because it's more efficient. TCMC's should not be accepted simply because they're more efficient (thankfully, PF recognized that, even if it had the TC sit on their ass and refuse to play moral police like they're supposed to).
I'm also saying nothing about torture and beatings, by the way. If anything those should be focused on, too, as they are a good thing by the Amarrian moral paradigm (essentially, my posts are arguing by Amarr morality, not Western. I want to see the good aspects acknowledged... but what is 'good' by Amarr is not necessarily good by Western ethics). They are traditional methods that adhere to the 'hardship brings the soul closer to God' line of argument that is key to rationalizing slavery in the Empire. Those are "good" punishments and should be maintained, even though they're wrong by Western morality.
Sorry, it's hard to describe. Basically, here's what I want to see from Amarrian slavery, and how I personally rationalize it when playing Samira and how she is able to argue in favor of it.
[spoiler]Amarr Slavery
Purpose: Spiritual enlightenment and education
Pro-purpose:
-Academic and spiritual education.
-Slaves are actual human beings worthy of God's love.
-Slave raids are necessary to save the soul, even if it ruins the Empire's reputation. You can't 'be patient' and say "oh we'll Reclaim everyone eventually", because everyone who dies apart from God is forever lost. Slave raids are pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-Hardship purifies the soul. Pain purifies the soul. Torture and beatings are necessary in the battle against temptation. Pain teaches you not to put your hand in a fire, beatings teach you not to fall to sin. Torture is pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-It can be difficult if not impossible to convert someone resistant in a single lifetime. By raising their children in slavery, and their children's children, you ensure that they are brought up in an environment where they will not be surrounded by temptation. Generational slavery is pro-purpose, and therefore good.
-Slaves are released once they prove that they have truly given themselves to God.
Anti-purpose:
-Transcranial Microcontrollers remove free will. Without free will, you cannot be taught. You cannot choose to turn to God. You are a "true slave", working solely to provide free labor for your owner. TCMCs eliminate the purpose of Amarrian slavery, and are therefore evil.
-Vitoxin removes free will, though to a lesser degree in comparison to TCMCs. They may be acceptable for problematic slaves who can be controlled no other way, but are a sign of failure to educate and bring up the slave properly. Vitoxin is anti-purpose and therefore evil.
-Breeding colonies focus on having more slaves to do more work to make more money for their Holder. There is nothing educational about breeding colonies. It makes slaves cattle to be exploited instead of people to be educated. Breeding colonies are anti-purpose and therefore evil.
-Death is absolutely anti-purpose. Spiritual enlightenment requires the slave converting to God prior to death. Killing a slave while they are still a slave (and therefore, still unenlightened) is ensuring that their soul will never unite with God, and therefore evil. The conditions of the mines, where slaves are often allowed to die in awful conditions, are therefore evil and completely against the purpose of Amarrian slavery, and slaves should never be arbitrarily killed or even killed as a punishment unless completely irredeemable. A chronicle (http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=25-12-08-b) outright says that the Amarr try to avoid killing in favor of converting their enemies through slavery.[/spoiler]
Simple rules that, IMO, make a very legimate case for slavery as a good thing, even though some of the "good" aspects are still very bad by Western morality. You do not have to "whitewash" slavery. What you do have to establish is that there are cultural rules, and ensure that those rules are followed and enforced (if slavery can't be considered Good, it can at least be respected as a Lawful institution that has internal integrity). The occasional people acting against purpose are fine, with conservatives largely adhering to it and liberals acting against it, but they should ultimately be recognized as being against purpose. Heresy is heresy because it goes against established orthodoxy. You need an established orthodoxy, and people (TC, Speakers) who are able and willing to enforce the orthodoxy. Right now we have some implementation of the former (TCMC arguments, anti-Nation viewpoint, etc), but very little of the latter. I want to see more of the latter, more actual enforcing of the orthodox view. We saw it happen with Arzad, but not with equally bad stuff like TCMCs and breeding colonies, which bugs me.
tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).
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Actually in the last round of Faction aggression it was the Caldari and the Republic being adventurous and throwing CONCORD / YULAI agreements to the wayside and launching invasions.
The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years.
Rodj Blake has been kind enough to point this out to Matari fairly often but the other Amarr players haven't been taking up that line of argument quite as much. It's a defensive war, our sovereignty was breached, the Republic was the one building secret fleets, launching invasions, attacking CONCORD, and ripping up treaties they signed.
My point being there is plenty of recent PF over the last few years to cast the Empire in a much kinder, defensive light if Amarr RPers are interested.
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Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4100.msg69302#msg69302) about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.
Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.
Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.
And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.
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Sort of off topic I guess, but something I never quite got about the way the creation of Faction Warfare made all the nations internal factions into one big unified mass... is that it shouldn't have happened.
You've got a wide variety of opinions and ways of doing things inside a faction, which continuously creates friction within this faction. Suddenly, big world changing event (Faction war) happens, and we're expected to accept that all these factions just went "Well, I never liked you much before, but those guys over there? They're way worse" and got on with the business of proxy war?
Where's the internal competition of differing viewpoints gone? As an example, the Brutor might want an all out slug fest with the Amarr, but I imagine that isn't how the Sebiestor or Vherokior tribes would go about it all. Why was there no politicking and sneakyness between these internal groups? Why weren't the Caldari Megacorps cutting each other out of arms deals and manufacturing contracts?
I know a common enemy is supposed to unify people, but in a world as viciously competitive as Eve's, I can't imagine this would just happen.
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Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4100.msg69302#msg69302) about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.
Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.
Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.
And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.
Going back to the 'day of darkness' has increasingly low returns. The Republic is a nation state, signing treaties, signing the Yulai Accords, and is bound to act as a state entiry. Signing treaties means giving up certain ghosts.
A crude metaphor, but the current American fringe argument for Reparations for ancestors of victims of the American Slave trade hasn't exactly gained any traction; there is the (often distasteful) attitude of 'that was hundreds of years ago, time to get over it'
I imagine in New Eden there is a large portion of the Republic and the International community echoing the same things, and quick to criticize the Republic for breaking agreements as a member of the galactic community. 'That happened hundreds of years ago, you are a CONCORD member state, you are all grown up, it's time to act like a member state and mediate differences through the proper channels'
Plenty of room for RP give and take on this one without getting into 'rawr slaver rawr heathen'
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If and when the Amarr are running slave raids with the public approval of the Empress then the Amarr RPers will have to eat crow and talk to others with their tails between their legs or carry the flag and tow the party line.
A difficult decision for Amarr supporters nonetheless, but much like real life they aren't all easy. And they shouldn't all be easy. You faction can and will do awful things that will make you look a fool in public, it's up to us how to respond, condem, or support. I think it adds to the RP milieu.
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Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation. I'm wondering if there would be interest in a baselining RP channel for something like this, so we could all partake of the bread and circuses.
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That's actually a really good idea!
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tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).
I agree, largely, though I would point out that as far as I understand the Speakers, they don't have much of a stake in such things as how slavery is conducted - they once had a more direct role as mediators, but nowadays they only interfere if the thing is Empire-shaking. They are securing the TC's influence against the Emperor, mostly. The institutions that are responsible for fair treatment of slaves are the TC and the Emperor (in that order, I think), with the MIO being the executive organ in that case, imho. The problem here is that the TC has been kept weak, at least since the heretic Karsoth grappled control over the Empire and then with Sarum leaving the seat of high deacon vacant. (Maybe if a case would be made to the Empress to fill that seat the Speakers would get involved. (: )
Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.
"Raiding" systems that changed sovereignty from republican to imperial might work, though, it would be an Amarrian POW thing and depending on how it is delivered (e.g. the Amarr pushing CONCORD to give an heads-up to the cluster that says: "Yes, if those systems change souvereignty, it's for the holder of that sovereignty to decide what to do with it. That's what sovereignty means. That's why the Caldari were able to have their auction. The Amarr are entitled to slave-raid in their own systems.") I don't see it as such a big problem as Esna or some others here, especially if it's done smart by the Amarr.
As to playing the "we're in the right" card: Yes, that's a card one can play, but as Esna pointed out, no, it's not that simple. The day of darkness isn't like the American slave trade and such. People, at least in the Minmatar community of RPers aren't tired to bring up the day of darkness all the time, nor were the officails of the Republic to justify the Elder invasion. That you imagine that those arguments are oftentimes dismissed, especially by people in the Republic, is, sadly I think, your imagionation. The fact is that all the Minmatar and the Federals cling tightly to it as an easy way to bash the Amarr - players and NPCs alike.
The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.
Emotion, in a public debate, usually beats rationality. vOv That's how it is and that's why usually, not the rational position wins the day. And that is the real challenge of Amarrian RP: The Amarr will never sway the western player by emotion, so they need to employ reason and rationality in their arguments. If they don't, they devolve usually into "well, we're against slavery, too" or "being the bad boy is oh so cool *mustache-twirl*". (And no, evil Amarr aren't cool, usually, the pirate factions are at least much better at that.)
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It's odd. I keep seeing players from the Amarr bloc posting about how the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.
I can only assume those of you with this opinion haven't looked through the mission write-ups with Amarr as the opposition. There is more than one mission sequence that portrays Imperial ships guarding slave compounds that have been filled by Caldari run slave raids. The targets involved drop navy tags and are the main source of same for LP store offers in the Republic & Fed.
Now I'll grant you that it is possible that these are either unsanctioned or semi-sanctioned, but they do happen, at least if mission based content is to be believed. As I recall the main article on slavery also makes it clear that authorised imperial slavers sometimes aren't too fussy about who they buy new stock from.
I'm sure the Republic & Fed are up to equally nasty stuff. But the Empire's hands are anything but clean in this respect.
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Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.
Any non-liberal Amarr will not see the Day of Darkness as something to be guilty over. It is something to be proud of. Just because non-Amarr may view it as bad, doesn't mean that it makes us guilty. We're the Amarr Empire, we do what we do for God, the opinions of everyone else aren't important. We are the ones rescuing people, by Amarrian morality.
The only reason the Empire made concessions before was for the sake of its own survival. It had the Jove on one front, the Republic on the other, the Federation sitting in the back moving all the pawns, and the State too busy fighting for their own independence. Things have changed now. The Jove are gone and the State are our allies. While more liberal Amarr might certainly want to keep going with the concessions, the conservatives do not care about playing nice with the other Empires.
Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.
And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.
Degrade? I don't agree. I don't see how being good and friendly with everyone is very interesting. Conflict is the spice of life. There is far too little conflict between RP characters in EVE as it stands. Everyone always wants to be friends, and that is boring. The war is good for igniting conflict between the players.
The only problem with the war is that at the same time as it started conflict between the factions, it killed the internal conflict within the factions. The best solution would be both external conflict and internal conflict. War with the other factions, and internal divisions between intrafactional groups.
Also, there's nothing wrong with opposing your faction ICly if your character would really be opposed to its actions. I'm sure even if the Empire started conducting slave raids openly again, people would still like Esna since he's such a huge liberal who would undoubtedly speak against it. That additionally encourages conflict between the conservatives and liberals, getting that internal conflict we need. Samira already finds Esna very heretical and thinks he's a bad Holder.
Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.
This I agree with. The matter of law isn't something to break lightly.
On the other hand... God's law trumps man's law. If the two are opposed, then God's law takes priority (unless you're Khanid).
The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.
Who cares if the Republic and other nations go all boohoo emotional? Their opinions do not matter. That's what I keep trying to point out. Why does everyone think we have to get people to like us? The Empire can have a backbone and stand for its principles in spite of the opposition.
Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation.
This is how I'm seeing it. The reports aren't coming from Scope or another unbiased news source, they're coming from the official Empire press. Meaning it's almost certainly propaganda attempting to paint a picture that is completely different from what the reality is.
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Silas, in response to your comments, I'd suggest you go re-read Nico's post here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4100.msg69302#msg69302) about why the "but the Matari attacked first!" line of thinking doesn't help very much.
Specifically:
- If history is brought up, people love to just go right back to the Day of Darkness - which puts the guilt right back on the Amarr again.
- Because slavery is viewed as such a bad thing, the resounding response to this kind of arguement is a big shrug and a "So? We rescued some people. It's justified."
- A resumption of slave raids now will not likely be viewed as a genuine response to the Elder attack, but as a stand-alone event several years down the line.
Because of all of this, a resumption of slave raids will significantly degrade the ability of Amarr and Minmatar RPers to interact in ways beyond "GRRRRR, YOU EVIL SLAVER!" and "GRRRR, YOU NASTY HEATHEN!" Much like how the addition of the inter-faction war in TEA steamrolled the factional differences into uniformity, the addition of an issue this deep and this fraught with contention - even OOC contention, as we have repeatedly seen - will pretty much steamroll the ability of the two factions to interact into uniformity.
And I don't know about the others here, but that's not very interesting to me.
Going back to the 'day of darkness' has increasingly low returns. The Republic is a nation state, signing treaties, signing the Yulai Accords, and is bound to act as a state entiry. Signing treaties means giving up certain ghosts.
A crude metaphor, but the current American fringe argument for Reparations for ancestors of victims of the American Slave trade hasn't exactly gained any traction; there is the (often distasteful) attitude of 'that was hundreds of years ago, time to get over it'
I imagine in New Eden there is a large portion of the Republic and the International community echoing the same things, and quick to criticize the Republic for breaking agreements as a member of the galactic community. 'That happened hundreds of years ago, you are a CONCORD member state, you are all grown up, it's time to act like a member state and mediate differences through the proper channels'
Plenty of room for RP give and take on this one without getting into 'rawr slaver rawr heathen'
The main issue with the Minmatar faction atm is that for me, it is believable to guess that most Minmatar do what most humans do in their lives : caring about themselves and their families. Politics come after. They may well be encouraged by political leaders to think that they should go free their "kin" (that has been enslaved for eons, so that's not really a kin anymore) in some far corner of space under the sovereignty of the amarrian bogeyman that they have never seen in their lives.
It is believable to guess that most Minmatar citizens just care about bettering their lives and accomodating with the very young age of the Republic, which should normally bring a LOT of internal tensions.
But how the Minmatar are portrayed in PF is always some variant of how they care for their lost kin, how they want revenge, etc. Sorry but to me, that's not how ordinary humans work, even in a different culture. That's why I like how people like Ava do in their usual RP.
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tl;dr: Not saying we should cover up bad stuff and just write about good stuff. You can make slavery a good thing (or at least respectable) without abolishing it, and without whitewashing it. I just want some integrity in the orthodoxy, and moral police who will actually do their job of policing (Articio can't do everything...).
I agree, largely, though I would point out that as far as I understand the Speakers, they don't have much of a stake in such things as how slavery is conducted - they once had a more direct role as mediators, but nowadays they only interfere if the thing is Empire-shaking. They are securing the TC's influence against the Emperor, mostly. The institutions that are responsible for fair treatment of slaves are the TC and the Emperor (in that order, I think), with the MIO being the executive organ in that case, imho. The problem here is that the TC has been kept weak, at least since the heretic Karsoth grappled control over the Empire and then with Sarum leaving the seat of high deacon vacant. (Maybe if a case would be made to the Empress to fill that seat the Speakers would get involved. (: )
Also: Slave raids aren't necessary for the reclaiming to work, nor are slaves per se. The Empire is open to willing converts and has always been (The Khanid were mostly accepted as willing converts about at the time when Amarr started practicing slavery.) Amarr shouldn't break agreements it has made just to raid for slaves - Amarrian ethics place high value on righteousness and I'd think keeping agreements up is considered righteous. So, no, I don't think that slave raids are necessary to save souls (you can go a Pax Amarria route), they are just one possible way to go. At the moment, raiding any CONCORD signatory for slaves is, I'd claim, unrighteous by Amarrian standards.
"Raiding" systems that changed sovereignty from republican to imperial might work, though, it would be an Amarrian POW thing and depending on how it is delivered (e.g. the Amarr pushing CONCORD to give an heads-up to the cluster that says: "Yes, if those systems change souvereignty, it's for the holder of that sovereignty to decide what to do with it. That's what sovereignty means. That's why the Caldari were able to have their auction. The Amarr are entitled to slave-raid in their own systems.") I don't see it as such a big problem as Esna or some others here, especially if it's done smart by the Amarr.
As to playing the "we're in the right" card: Yes, that's a card one can play, but as Esna pointed out, no, it's not that simple. The day of darkness isn't like the American slave trade and such. People, at least in the Minmatar community of RPers aren't tired to bring up the day of darkness all the time, nor were the officails of the Republic to justify the Elder invasion. That you imagine that those arguments are oftentimes dismissed, especially by people in the Republic, is, sadly I think, your imagionation. The fact is that all the Minmatar and the Federals cling tightly to it as an easy way to bash the Amarr - players and NPCs alike.
The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.
Emotion, in a public debate, usually beats rationality. vOv That's how it is and that's why usually, not the rational position wins the day. And that is the real challenge of Amarrian RP: The Amarr will never sway the western player by emotion, so they need to employ reason and rationality in their arguments. If they don't, they devolve usually into "well, we're against slavery, too" or "being the bad boy is oh so cool *mustache-twirl*". (And no, evil Amarr aren't cool, usually, the pirate factions are at least much better at that.)
+1 I bold the important part. First, so that I can link to this comment in further discussion. As it is here nicely put and in better words as I ever would found. Secondly a plus one for that it is a TRUE statement.
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Maybe a off topic question. As we see or I see it: We have four story arcs now in the Amarr bloc?
-"Yonis Ardishapur Arc" 1 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5032&tid=2) 2 (http://[url=http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5043&tid=2)
-"Aritcio Kor-Azor Arc" 1 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5040&tid=2) 2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5044&tid=2)
-"Merimeth Sarum Arc" 1 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5054&tid=2)
-"Uriam Kador Arc" 1 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5052&tid=2) 2 (http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=5056&tid=2)
Have I miss a news? And has someone already a Idea how they tie together?
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It's odd. I keep seeing players from the Amarr bloc posting about how the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.
I can only assume those of you with this opinion haven't looked through the mission write-ups with Amarr as the opposition. There is more than one mission sequence that portrays Imperial ships guarding slave compounds that have been filled by Caldari run slave raids. The targets involved drop navy tags and are the main source of same for LP store offers in the Republic & Fed.
Now I'll grant you that it is possible that these are either unsanctioned or semi-sanctioned, but they do happen, at least if mission based content is to be believed. As I recall the main article on slavery also makes it clear that authorised imperial slavers sometimes aren't too fussy about who they buy new stock from.
I'm sure the Republic & Fed are up to equally nasty stuff. But the Empire's hands are anything but clean in this respect.
I don't think a lot of Amarr players make the actual claim that the Empire doesn't conduct slave raids anymore.
They however claim usually that the ones doing it are probably rogue elements (since its criminal).
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Degrade? I don't agree. I don't see how being good and friendly with everyone is very interesting. Conflict is the spice of life. There is far too little conflict between RP characters in EVE as it stands. Everyone always wants to be friends, and that is boring. The war is good for igniting conflict between the players.
The only problem with the war is that at the same time as it started conflict between the factions, it killed the internal conflict within the factions. The best solution would be both external conflict and internal conflict. War with the other factions, and internal divisions between intrafactional groups.
Also, there's nothing wrong with opposing your faction ICly if your character would really be opposed to its actions. I'm sure even if the Empire started conducting slave raids openly again, people would still like Esna since he's such a huge liberal who would undoubtedly speak against it. That additionally encourages conflict between the conservatives and liberals, getting that internal conflict we need. Samira already finds Esna very heretical and thinks he's a bad Holder.
The problem with having to much conflict, however, is it tends to divide people into small islands. If, for instance, I had to choose between continuing meaningful interaction with the Amarr RP community and the rest of the RP community, I honestly wouldn't know which to go to, because both have their good days and their days that make me want to thud my head into the wall repeatedly. And since neither is large enough for me to only interact during the 'good moments', whichever option I choose to go with, I will inevitably end up with a huge portion of my interaction cut off.
The problem here is that, while rationally the Amarr are kind of 'in the right' at the moment, the Matar are in the right by what most people feel to be right. Emotionally, the Matari have all the right to go against the Amarr, by whatever means. It's a difficult thing to shift a debate/discussion/argument from an emotional to rational - the other way aound it's far easier. One has to be careful not to give opening for the emotional "day of darkness, slavery & bitter tears of vitoc dependent children" division, if one wants to make a stand for Amarrian righteousness in the matter of the recent war.
Who cares if the Republic and other nations go all boohoo emotional? Their opinions do not matter. That's what I keep trying to point out. Why does everyone think we have to get people to like us? The Empire can have a backbone and stand for its principles in spite of the opposition.
While IC their opinions might not matter, the fact remains that we as OOC players desire interaction with other RPers. If that interaction can be summed up as "GRRR YOU ARE TEH BAD GUYS" "NO YOU ARE WORSE BAD GUYS" then that's about as fun to me as sitting in a sandbox banging forheads with the other kid in it: Even if he falls over first, you're left with a huge headache and nobody to play with anymore.
Already it is frustratingly difficult to play an Amarr when many discussions end up with the other side going, "yes, but SLAVERY SLAVERY SLAVERY SLAVERY DAWKINS SLAVERY DAWKINS". Even if the Amarr "stand up" as you put it - a description I find highly inaccurate to begin with - then what kind of a response do they have? "Well, we disagree! So there!" ? How does that serve to perpetuate an interesting discussion?
@ Arnulf -
Given that both written PF (evelopedia, chronicles) and in-game text describe the Empire as no longer engaging in slave raids, I regard those missions as a case of gameplay/storyline segregation, much like the fifty million Damsels and whole NPC fleets being annihilated by a single capsuleer: Raids for slaves do occur in the Republic; they are not, however, done by authorized, large wings of national navies.
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First, it is like Esna says: banging my head against the other child's until he falls over and I have an headache isn't fun. We already have enough of that. I've been around for quite some time and we had enough of the "I am right and I don't care if you don't agree, you're stupid anyway."-type.
Second, of course the Amarr care about what the others think. After all, every interaction of the Amarr aims at convincing the others that the Amarrian view is the right one. You don't convince others by just shrugging off that they don't agree. That kind of thinking leads straight to working slaves to death: After all, you don't mind what those heathens are thinking and they are lost anyway... Bu ah, wait a moment there:
It does matter what those slaves hold to be true, doesn't it? They should be lead to accept God and the Amarrian religion, right? And the same is true for those foreigners living in their own states, no? They should be lead to accept the Truth as well, after all, right?
Right.
The Amarr under Heideran didn't make so much concessions as they were changing their strategy: Not caring too much for education lead down the road that it took with the Matari. They were exploited rather than educated. (By the way: Torture and punishment don't have value in themselves to the Amarr, they are tools to strip someone of a negative behaviour and recondition them to a positive; torturing and beating a slave for no other reason than 'hardship leads to enlightenment' is wicked and evil even by Amarrian standards, I'm quite sure.)
So, Amarr try to educate all heathens (and re-educate heretics, if possible), whether they are slaves or not. The Reclaiming isn't something that is only conducted through slavery, on that we agree. And from that follows that every opinion counts and should be shifted towards accepting God. As the Amarr can't sway by appeal to emotion (they might be potentially able as they did this certainly with the Khanid, but at the moment it's blocked by "Derp we failed with the Matari", they are stranded with rational argument: A bit like Thomas Aquinas with his Summa contra gentiles.
Amarrian education isn't induction into fanatic zealotry, not among the Amarr. Zealotry, at least of the mindless kind, is for some of the Khanid cults (or worse: heretics). Amarrian education certainly aims at instilling adherence to the tenets of their religion, but in a sophisticated way. Amarr, aim to get their science and religion into one synthetic and comprehensive system. After all, the Amarr are the best educated people of New Eden, not merely the best indoctrinated ones.
So, the Amarr know that a war isn't simply won by force, but by winning over the peoples minds and hearts. Slavery breaks someone, then wins over their hearts by building them up again and after several generations you get into their minds as well. All that is well and good if you can overwhelm someone by force. That's not the case at the moment, though and the Amarr are smart enough to realize that. Also: If you can win someone's mind over to the point where you get a hold of them and therefore their hearts that's even better. No one got elevated to holder status for enslaving Udorians. An entire royal family arose from the coup of winning over the minds and hearts of the Khanid people.
P.S.: And yes, rogue elements within the Empire appear to conduct raids - that is criminals. That is to say it's not the Empire (in general). At least, that's the only interpretation that reconciles PF with itself in a non-contradictory way.
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Enough talk.
Burn the CONCORD treaties.
Release the slave ships.
Reeducate and bring the heathens into the fold of the one true god.
What the other empires think is meaningless.
/me awaits to go down in a blaze glory defending Athra.
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Enough talk.
Burn the CONCORD treaties.
Release the slave ships.
Reeducate and bring the heathens into the fold of the one true god.
What the other empires think is meaningless.
/me awaits to go down in a blaze glory defending Athra.
Hear, hear!
I love you, Mitty.
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Incidentally.
It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.
I see your Imperial zealots as being more from the lower, middle and minor noble classes.
On an entirely different note. The imperial faith seems to excel at producing really weird, cranky heretic groups. Just how variant does a group's opinions have to be before the Theology council goes all Torquemada on them? In your individual opinions of course.
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Incidentally.
It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.
I see your Imperial zealots as being more from the lower, middle and minor noble classes.
On an entirely different note. The imperial faith seems to excel at producing really weird, cranky heretic groups. Just how variant does a group's opinions have to be before the Theology council goes all Torquemada on them? In your individual opinions of course.
Mh, lets see here, two heirs are zealots - I'd say thats a pretty decent percentage :D
To answer the second question: There are two criteria the TC is going to judge by.
First: Does the subcult upset the social and power balance inside the empire?
Second: Does the subcult diverge sufficiently from the dogma pronounced by the TC to threaten the dogma and/or lead to a drift away from the dogma.
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It seems a lot of you are operating on the assumption that the Empire's higher nobility really are true followers of the faith. My impression is that above a certain level the religion is seen as a useful form of social control rather than truth. Of course there are fanatics, but my impression is that they are the exception rather than the rule.
One can be a true follower of a faith without being a fanatic, no? One can see religion as useful form of social control and as truth, maybe even that it's usefulness and truth are even interrelated, no?
Also, Mitty employs emotional address to deflect rational argument. Well, there is still hope people up the rungs in the Empire aren't deaf to reason. ;P
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If the Federation is busy ballroom dancing with the State, then they aren't going to be available to assist their Matari client state.
Time to release the hounds. Time for the Empire to bring the old-school biblical wrath to the Republic. Babylon-5 Centauri style vs the Narns.
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If the Federation is busy ballroom dancing with the State, then they aren't going to be available to assist their Matari client state.
Time to release the hounds. Time for the Empire to bring the old-school biblical wrath to the Republic. Babylon-5 Centauri style vs the Narns.
Londo, the tragic hero. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UGjMXjg-FjQ) Makes me shed a tear each time I watch it. :cry:
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The thing about the Centauri and the Narn is, the Centauri are the hounds and the Shadows keep them on a leash...
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The thing about the Centauri and the Narn is, the Centauri are the hounds and the Shadows keep them on a leash...
That is, of course, until Londo decides to press the button :D
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Well, yes. Londo is a tragic hero. Still, I would prefer not to be in the Centauri's shoes.
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Well, yes. Londo is a tragic hero. Still, I would prefer not to be in the Centauri's shoes.
True, true. If I'd have to change places with anyone I'd probably ask for it to be Vir :D
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Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation. I'm wondering if there would be interest in a baselining RP channel for something like this, so we could all partake of the bread and circuses.
I *like* this idea. If I have time this weekend, I'll try to make up a channel if no one has done that yet. :)
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Regarding the Kador Prime celebrations: It seems like a great way to boost public morale despite the actual militia situation. I'm wondering if there would be interest in a baselining RP channel for something like this, so we could all partake of the bread and circuses.
I *like* this idea. If I have time this weekend, I'll try to make up a channel if no one has done that yet. :)
Aldrith already did.
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:D
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What is the channel?
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Kador Prime - Epitoth Square
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The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years.
And now it is only Empire.
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The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years.
And now it is only Empire.
Some of you loyalists might do well to remind everyone on IGS in an appropriately snooty attitude that this is the case!! :)
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Oh, I do each time I'm given the occasion. Gotta love the moral highground. :D
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The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years.
And now it is only Empire.
Some of you loyalists might do well to remind everyone on IGS in an appropriately snooty attitude that this is the case!! :)
Well, Empire and frakkin Jove. Though that does not mean there won't be calls for considering certain agreements pretty much worthless. \o/
Only way this could have gone better (For your holder minded Crow) would have been if Amarrian navy had rode in to save the day before the Caldari lost a planet.
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The Empire (and the Federation) are actually 'in the right' with regards to maintaining concord status quo and international treaties the last few years.
And now it is only Empire.
Some of you loyalists might do well to remind everyone on IGS in an appropriately snooty attitude that this is the case!! :)
We had a discussion about this last night in OOC.
Technically the Federation still qualifies to be on that list. There was no formal ceding of sovereignty either of the planet of Caldari Prime itself or the airspace above it from the Federation to the State. Just a verbal gentleman's agreement between Foiritan and Heth that was not made in good faith by either party.
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Oh, I do each time I'm given the occasion. Gotta love the moral highground. :D
Standing on the moral highground often denies you cover and draws fire. Or is that why you like it? :)
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Oh, I do each time I'm given the occasion. Gotta love the moral highground. :D
Standing on the moral highground often denies you cover and draws fire. Or is that why you like it? :)
We don't need cover. Faith is our shield.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
- The Scriptures, Amarr Askura 10:3
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Faith is no excuse for stupidity. I have faith God gave us the ability to reason for... a reason.
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Oh, I do each time I'm given the occasion. Gotta love the moral highground. :D
Standing on the moral highground often denies you cover and draws fire. Or is that why you like it? :)
We don't need cover. Faith is our shield.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
- The Scriptures, Amarr Askura 10:3
I'm sure the Empire has a variant on the joke about the fanatic who is in a flood and refuses help claiming that "God will save me." The one that ends with him complaining to the deity and being told "I sent you a lorry a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?"
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Oh, I do each time I'm given the occasion. Gotta love the moral highground. :D
Standing on the moral highground often denies you cover and draws fire. Or is that why you like it? :)
We don't need cover. Faith is our shield.
"Face the enemy as a solid wall
For faith is your armor
And through it, the enemy will find no breach
Wrap your arms around the enemy
For faith is your fire
And with it, burn away his evil"
- The Scriptures, Amarr Askura 10:3
I'm sure the Empire has a variant on the joke about the fanatic who is in a flood and refuses help claiming that "God will save me." The one that ends with him complaining to the deity and being told "I sent you a lorry a boat and a helicopter, what more did you want?"
God's help comes in many forms. /nod
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Standing on the moral highground often denies you cover and draws fire. Or is that why you like it? :)
Yes, that's how it should be! Brings out the worms to try to attack the mighty fortress of arguments, and you can squash them without having to search for them. Muahahahhaha.
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God's help comes in many forms. /nod
True enough. If you believe in that sort of thing.
Just to check. We are having an OOC conversation here right? I only ask because your responses are sounding remarkably IC to me.
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God's help comes in many forms. /nod
True enough. If you believe in that sort of thing.
Just to check. We are having an OOC conversation here right? I only ask because your responses are sounding remarkably IC to me.
Of course it's OOC. :P
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God's help comes in many forms. /nod
True enough. If you believe in that sort of thing.
Just to check. We are having an OOC conversation here right? I only ask because your responses are sounding remarkably IC to me.
Of course it's OOC. :P
Yeah but I think some of it is rather going off the topic of the Amarr arc, or has been. :P
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2801887#post2801887
Something's going to blow up.
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And one more Amarr news is up. :D
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House Sarum promotes aggressive conquest of Minmatar territories (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2840976#post2840976)
Amarr Victor!
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Time to break some conservative skulls, yeaw !
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/me turns to the dark side.
Fukkit. Been waiting for Amarr live events so long I'll just slave. Minnies need to pay for winning FW all the damn time.
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New minni slaves for the market, yay! And then, we go and conquer Pator, and skip all the FW thing, that'd be cool too.
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There is only water to reclaim on Pator. Like, tons of it.
(http://static.freepik.com/photos-libre/trollface_17-403125921.jpg)
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But it'll be God's water, and go to church!
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There is only water to reclaim on Pator. Like, tons of it.
(http://static.freepik.com/photos-libre/trollface_17-403125921.jpg)
Who knows, maybe you'll get lucky and find Kevin Costner in.... 8) Waterworld. YEEEEEEEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH!
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The story of a born Sebiestor fisherman in search for the mystical land of Mikramurka and chased all around by ruthless Brutor bikers ?
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(http://i.imgur.com/s3GxR7z.gif)
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Ardishapur educational reforms showing initial strong results (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2851900#post2851900)
Digging this one. 8)
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So do I! That#s the kind of news Amarr needs! <3 <3 <3
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I've poked Falcon to see who Amarr people would want to talk to about this news.
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keep me posted on that!
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What annoys me is that we know very little on what this reform consists of exactly. I can't seriously start debating about it if the only things the news say is "The reform shows good results".
Well, ok, sure. Good results based on which criterias ?
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Exactly why I poked Falcon looking for a contact. :bear:
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i feel like I should have an opinion about the schools thing, what with my whole thing in the fiction forum about Louella's school.
but i haven't thought of anything to say
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I am curious as well as to what standards are used to judge the success of the curriculum. Like this line "The new curriculum, on the other hand, forces students to engage their minds and think deeply on Scripture and service." could be read very differently depending on the how and what of the analysis.
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I knida feel like the Ardishapur end of the Amarr Arc should have progressed a little slower. It's been only two months since he announced he was making the reforms and now already they are being praised as a success? I think realistically one month would not have even been long enough to plan them all out, let alone to begin to implement them. Oh well...
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Good news, though it does seem a bit rushed like Aldy said. I don't think 2 months is enough to break students out of habits from a lifetime of rote learning and suddenly they have critical thinking and problem solving skills.
Also Louella, I think your story may more accurately reflect a private education, where as this arc seems to be more geared toward public education. Louella's school is for fine Amarrian ladies not ACS bureaucrats.
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ACS bureaucrats...
Mhh, playing an ACS bureaucrat character. So much appeal :P
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Realistically, changes to education system really show only after years or decades, yes. That would make for a damn long arc, though...
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Realistically, changes to education system really show only after years or decades, yes. That would make for a damn long arc, though...
This. There's a point in which realism has to meet fun.
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Realistically, changes to education system really show only after years or decades, yes. That would make for a damn long arc, though...
This. There's a point in which realism has to meet fun.
My Idea would be to have this Education reforms first in those schools which produce the "teachers".... like the Ardishapur Institute of Education* (http://webcache.googleusercontent.com/search?q=cache:L1CW6z8Fd5wJ:www.eveonline.com/news.asp%3Fa%3Dsingle%26nid%3D2582+&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk).... Maybe he, Eterne, could bring up, that the "under-construction" school is now finish and works under this new guidelines.....
As from here would it be easier to say, that the "new curriculum, on the other hand, forces students to engage their minds and think deeply on Scripture and service. " etc... I would suggests Eterne to make the news around one school (AIoE). It would also make sense, that the Ardishapur are needing new/better teachers in those classes which teach the future teachers....after that the new/better teachers meet "a group of students"/"fellow student, a low-class Ni-Kunni woman," which were mention in the news...
So first..... AIoE with the new guide lines teaches new teachers and/or re-teach the old ones (which had before work with the old structures and ideas). From that: Second. New teacher going out to other schools in his domain (not just AIoE)..... Third: "A group of students"/"fellow student, a low-class Ni-Kunni woman," come up in the news.
The news would be something like this:
[spoiler]
Ardishapur educational reforms showing initial strong results
Youl - With the educational reforms spearheaded by Yonis Ardishapur firmly implemented in his family domains, the overall reaction from educators and students has been highly positive. While the standards have only been in place a short time, improvements have been noted by several groups. The other royal Houses, and the Imperial court, have all been watching closely.
The Ardishapur Institute of Education, which for a long time under-construction, was the prefect starting point for Yonis Ardishapur education program. The new curriculum was first teach in the halls of re-open Institute of Education. For months new students leave the University and start their career as teacher.
One new teacher, when asked about the changes, heaped effusive praise on them. "The old standards were sorely lacking. They did little to challenge students and, instead, fostered an air of minimal effort and doing just enough to get by. The new curriculum, on the other hand, forces students to engage their minds and think deeply on Scripture and service."
A older teacher, which is already a month back from the Ardishapur Institute of Education praise the educational reforms. "Some of the students responses have been very interesting, something I can't say I remember in my decades of teaching." He went on to say, "It's naturally been a challenge for some students, especially those who are nearing the end of their education. They're so used to the old ways - and much of the rubbish in there was little more than antiquated notions that haven't been changed since before the rise of capsuleers flipped so much on its head - that adjusting to the new standards have been difficult. However, I've been very surprised by some. Those who seemed the least interested in being there, now that they're faced with things of genuine use and importance, have seemingly woken up. It's been like night and day."
A group of students expressed similar opinions. "The material is much more in depth," said one, a Khanid student from an upper class common family. "The older work was simply more of the same thing I've been learning since I was a child. This is something new."
A fellow student, a low-class Ni-Kunni woman, concurred. "Before, I was learning the rote methods of how things were done. The new curriculum actually makes me have to stop and think sometimes. I'm actually listening to the instructor instead of doodling on my datapad, waiting for the lecture to end."
When asked what the most important change was, she quickly answered, "Accountability. For both the student and the teacher. I've had some awful teachers before, who were less interested in teaching and more interested in collecting tenure. I don't think they'll survive long under this new plan."
According to reports from the Imperial court, EmpressJamyl I is apparently "ecstatic" about the early results and is looking forward to having the reforms implemented Empire-wide.
The next round of civil service exams in the Empire are upcoming and the Amarr Civil Service has already reported a 5% increase in applicants over previous years.
[/spoiler]
The new structure would be:
-explaining the past
-new teacher leaves comment
-old teacher leaves comment
-A group students leaves comment
-A single student leaves comment
-Meaning for the Empire
-How awesome the outcome is....
Ehm... But I havent a activ account, and most likely Eterne wouldnt listen to me.... So if someone else trys to come forward and runs with the AIoE idea or brings it to Eterne. He will be welcome :P.
P.S. OOC: Is this news about the American change in the school system? Actually it is quiet funny, that they (Amarr) still go out from a structural approach on a Education problem (meaning outcome is only in correlation with the structure etc...). Ehm... Its remembers me on the whole Wisconsin thingy!?!
I think a little rework of Eterne would help, so that it goes also in a modern approach/direction (what we call in germany the finnland model; after the country which kicks our ass on every PISA study :lol:). Meaning... as I said... new teaching methods for the teachers... less "negative selection"* Then new teacher (and re-skilled old ones) are back to schools. Schools get better and sharper structure.... etc
*"negative selection" is a german term. It means, that some university degress/diploms have a strong tendency to attract the wrong people. A good example would be the german teaching system in the 70... to be more precisely the lectureship and priests (priests need a university degree; today also muslime priests and other too). They have in the 70 largely attract people which had started this profession for the wrong reasons.... Which lead to a huge problem of bad teachers and/or pedo bears (in both professions). It was actually a interesting time, because during the 70s we had a social democratic-liberal government/administration. Interesting why? Interesting because most of the time social democratic parties and governments* try to fix a problem by just changing the structure (like put one school together with other school etc... or change the system a little etc...). But just a re-structuring wouldnt fix the problem. As can be seen by Joseph Ratzingers work (aka pope Benedikt XVI.); sending pedo bears to a new city (or giving him to a new school); doesnt fix the pedo bear problem.
As I said, but this problem in the 70s wasnt a structural ones, it was about individuals. So, it was a hard time, because the german SPD, had to go out of their "comfort zone" and attack their own voters (teachers). Which they, the SPD, luckily have. I think, this is move which the American Democrates still have to do, because like Finnland (and the german past) has showen: Education isnt just the structure thingy. So If a american reads my overly long post :lol:. Be ready for some interesting years to come, and the fun will just start when the first democrates comes forward and says.... "Actually there are bad teachers. And we, as party X, should think about the goal of a structure (education of students) first and not just defend the structure (aka teachers) itself." That will be so funny :lol:
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The Sarum family and the Ardishapur family are co-owners of the Royal Amarr Institute and I hope that the content team remember that if this starts to spread within the Empire.
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The Sarum family and the Ardishapur family are co-owners of the Royal Amarr Institute and I hope that the content team remember that if this starts to spread within the Empire.
During my time on the wiki ...I actually dont found the news which says that :|... Do you have link for me about the RAI and Sarum + Ardishapur connection?
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It is in the old NPC corporation shares data.
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It is in the old NPC corporation shares data.
Sadly no :cry:... http://www.eveiverse.com/npc_corporations/bragian_order#npc_corporations%2Froyal_amarr_institute%2Finvestors
http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_corporation.php?corporationID=1000077
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Meh, must have been retconned out.
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According to the data of EVElopedia (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Royal_Amarr_Institute_(NPC_corporation)), the shareholders are Carthum, the Chancellery and the TC.
Further Foodstuffs is held and has been founded by Ardishapur and Sarum jointly, iirc.
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Even more, the Ardishapur entry on chruker (http://games.chruker.dk/eve_online/npc_corporation.php?corporationID=1000068) lists the Royal Amarr Institute as "enemy". Ardishapur is probably an "anonymous" owner of Further Foodstuffs (pretty much established in fluff) and also owns a piece of Viziam. Some of that information is rather funny, though. Apparently, Carthum is partially owned by Ducia Foundry (i.e. Zoar & Sons). Ducia lists Carthum as "enemy".
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Meh, must have been retconned out.
2004 says no. (http://web.archive.org/web/20040204114557/http://www.eve-online.com/corporations/c_1000077.asp)
Also, the first article of this education reform arc explicitly states that the higher-level education in the Empire isn't really a problem. What this reform is touching on is education of commoners.
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[Modified as I am taking the advice of the posters below - Esna, Nico and Silas]
One IC concern Luna has became evident on IGS today when he-who-must-not-be-named[tm] essentially tried to slander Ardishapur by implying that the educational reforms would support abolition or wholesale changes in Amarr doctrine. While Ardishapur is progressive, he is also a true amarr and this sort of support he could do without. While I won't dignify he-who-must-not-be-named with a response on IGS (although Luna was going to get her dander up), I can see the Amarr Arc going in this direction with Sarumites latching onto mischaracterizations like that.
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Ardishapur ? Progressive ? @_@
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Ardishapur ? Progressive ? @_@
*laugh* this is where current real life labels don't quite fit I guess (like trying to describe certain rl religious leaders who may be progressive compared to what was before). Luna likes Ardishapur because (evepedia) "Yonis Ardishapur, favoring peaceful conversion to the forceful Reclaiming. Yonis seems to believe the carrot is more effective than the stick and has funded religious missions to every civilized empire. He has additionally heavily built up the centers of education and health care in his domains, making them very attractive places for the wealthy to send their children." In that sense! andit's important to her backstory because it is part of why she made her career change and why she is worried about the tensions that seem to be developing in the Amarr arc.
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Yonis is, on the opposite, being relatively close to the Ardishapur ideals. Sure, he has improved the schools. I dare suggest that the Orthodox Amarr faith has a large role. Since Amarr scripture contains pretty much everything about everything, it probably isn't terribly hard to design a curriculum that uses the practical bits to reinforce the message that faith helps you, and mix some of the more "traditional" Amarr message of "bow to your Holders" in-between the more "useful" lessons.
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Yonis is, on the opposite, being relatively close to the Ardishapur ideals. Sure, he has improved the schools. I dare suggest that the Orthodox Amarr faith has a large role. Since Amarr scripture contains pretty much everything about everything, it probably isn't terribly hard to design a curriculum that uses the practical bits to reinforce the message that faith helps you, and mix some of the more "traditional" Amarr message of "bow to your Holders" in-between the more "useful" lessons.
I don't think that orthodox Amarr faith has a role in education in the Empire. Rather it's the other way around: Education has a role in the orthodox Amarr faith. vOv That's nothing Ardishapur-specific, though, I'd claim.
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Ardishapur ? Progressive ? @_@
*laugh* this is where current real life labels don't quite fit I guess (like trying to describe certain rl religious leaders who may be progressive compared to what was before). Luna likes Ardishapur because (evepedia) "Yonis Ardishapur, favoring peaceful conversion to the forceful Reclaiming. Yonis seems to believe the carrot is more effective than the stick and has funded religious missions to every civilized empire. He has additionally heavily built up the centers of education and health care in his domains, making them very attractive places for the wealthy to send their children." In that sense! andit's important to her backstory because it is part of why she made her career change and why she is worried about the tensions that seem to be developing in the Amarr arc.
Ah okay. I wasn't aware of that description of him.
Though when I read a news piece about him, I silently scream "CONSERVATIVE" pretty much every time. What I read of him daily and what I read of him on evelopedia seems to describe 2 different characters to my eyes.
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He's a sophisticated conservative. vOv It all makes sense, to me. Did you read about his biography?
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I didnt say that it doesnt make sense. It's intriguing, and it gives a lot of depth to the character.
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2918593#post2918593
Um, okay, but I have to say, what the fuck? Since when were we allowed to have bare-tittied Empress impersonators at giant parties that last for weeks? I think I'm having a crisis of identity here.
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Welcome to Babylon, enjoy your stay.
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Um, okay, but I have to say, what the fuck? Since when were we allowed to have bare-tittied Empress impersonators at giant parties that last for weeks? I think I'm having a crisis of identity here.
Not exactly sure how I feel about it, either. Or the fact that Jamyl just rather endorsed it... :ugh:
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I love this article. It confirms my suspicions of 1) Amarrians know how to party, 2) Amarrians are not as uptight as they are frequently portrayed.
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I love this article. It confirms my suspicions of 1) Amarrians know how to party, 2) Amarrians are not as uptight as they are frequently portrayed.
THIS.
The Bare-skinned Empress impersonation was a little 'WTF' but can be explained away with some religious iconography (Supposed fertility/motherly symbolism etc.) but the rest is all good. Imperialist Amarrians displayed as livid, out-going humans who can actually enjoy themselves and do human things, like take things a bit to far at parties? YES. PLEASE.
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Silence, Gallente infidel deviants.
It is not gratuitous nudity, it is art.
Religious Art.
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I loved this article -so- much.
Topless Jamyl impersonator riding around chariot style filled me with much joy.
Maybe the Empire is properly entering it's Roman 'bread and circuses' phase.
MORE WINE.
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Actually, it reminds me of the Semana Santa festivities in southern Spain, where they parade the Virgin statues around and call her "beautiful" when they're polite, much more when they are more drunk. Still, I must admit that all the deaths are complicated to handle for Seph, specially given he's an atheist. Luckily the Empress endorsed it, so no doubts! xDD
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Very interested to see where things go for the next big PF / Event push.
Now that Caldari / Gallente had some resolution and a lot of breaking events for Matari I'm guessing we'll get Amarr things next.
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It's a big Empire. A few dozen probably die every day, tripping on their way to prayer. For a few to die during a region-wide extended celebration is nothing. Which is why the news articles only highlight particularly noteworthy cases. Just like the news IRL.
Edit: I hope we get more Amarr things!
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http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-becoming-increasingly-erratic-reports-say/
Aaand she's finally lost it.
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Please don't Heth our empress, CCP.
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Hmm, looks like we're not going to be able to pretend that the silly things in the books aren't apparent to our characters much longer.
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Yay, the quicker she is out, the quicker Catiz on the throne, the better. \o/
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Hell no, I vote for Amarrian Batman: Articio Kor-Azor!
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Please don't Heth our empress, CCP.
Tbh, Jamyl had been going rather crazy long before it even became apparent that Heth had any illness to begin with. So while it looks like, from our characters' perpective that Jamyl might be 'pulling a Heth,' in reality it's the other way around.
But two bits of Amarr info in one day? I wonder if they're gearing up for something big to happen while Fanfest takes place. Like what they did during PAX East.
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Yay, the quicker she is out, the quicker Catiz on the throne, the better. \o/
TM are heretics who shouldn't even have an heir house!
Ardishapur 2013!
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Yay, the quicker she is out, the quicker Catiz on the throne, the better. \o/
TM are heretics who shouldn't even have an heir house!
Ardishapur 2013!
Ardishapur is also the family line that produced the Mad Emperor and the heretic that became the founder of EoM. :P Two huge stains in their history, if you ask me.
Aside from that, if the leaning is towards throwing out Jamyl and replacing her with another Emperor, I'm not happy about taking this route. When royalty in Amarr are suppose to last a few hundred years as the norm, having to have a change of Emperors 3 times in a ten year span isn't a good thing. :ugh:
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Hmm, looks like we're not going to be able to pretend that the silly things in the books aren't apparent to our characters much longer.
Yup. Complicated thing. Caldari can choose to be loyal or not to Heth, he's just a man. We can't, since the Empress isn't. It's going to be a complicated matter to address.
As for the succesor, we need Kador to hold the line! So we can finally Reclaim the Gallente with our full force!
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TBH... I was hoping they'd keep Sarum around, as the turnover rate in Imperial leadership is just getting silly and she was one of the publicly sane-er leaders - prior to this, it was far easier to sweep her derpy bits under the "but we wouldn't know" rug. I guess CCP's going for a full wipe of all TonyG-era leadership, though. Ohwell. :cry:
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2918593#post2918593
Um, okay, but I have to say, what the fuck? Since when were we allowed to have bare-tittied Empress impersonators at giant parties that last for weeks? I think I'm having a crisis of identity here.
Thank the Goddess, I say. Anything that moves the Amarr away from being seen as Catholicism 2.0.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-becoming-increasingly-erratic-reports-say/
Aaand she's finally lost it.
Awesome.
Aside from that, if the leaning is towards throwing out Jamyl and replacing her with another Emperor, I'm not happy about taking this route.
Agreed. Have the megas make a bloody smear of Heth but let's keep Jamyl. As long as she's mildly insane, she can help make the Empire more dynamic without having yet another Imperial succession.
I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of the Amarr.
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https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2918593#post2918593
Um, okay, but I have to say, what the fuck? Since when were we allowed to have bare-tittied Empress impersonators at giant parties that last for weeks? I think I'm having a crisis of identity here.
Thank the Goddess, I say. Anything that moves the Amarr away from being seen as Catholicism 2.0.
http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-becoming-increasingly-erratic-reports-say/
Aaand she's finally lost it.
Awesome.
Aside from that, if the leaning is towards throwing out Jamyl and replacing her with another Emperor, I'm not happy about taking this route.
Agreed. Have the megas make a bloody smear of Heth but let's keep Jamyl. As long as she's mildly insane, she can help make the Empire more dynamic without having yet another Imperial succession.
Why? Just kill her. The Empire is so strong, it could survive the Mad Emperor; it will also survive a new secession.
Edit: As for: "I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of the Amarr." She is also "head"/"overlord" of the Khanid Kingdom (see Eterne comment/brain-fart on the Eve-forum (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793)); she is also the "religious head/"overlord"(see St. Tetrimon chron (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Cult_of_Tetrimon_%28Chronicle%29)) of the amarr church/faith. So she is two in one :P :lol:. Which makes her de jure and de facto worldly- and religious leader of the Khanid Kingdom (see here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29)).
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It is the Age of the Revolving Throne.
Where Emperor after Emperor attempted to sit on the Throne and was cast off.
Then Saint (Insert Name Here) put an end to it, when (gender appropriate pronoun) received the Wisdom of God, creating another book of Scripture and bringing peace and order to the Empire.
And there was much rejoicing.
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<snip>
Aside from that, if the leaning is towards throwing out Jamyl and replacing her with another Emperor, I'm not happy about taking this route. When royalty in Amarr are suppose to last a few hundred years as the norm, having to have a change of Emperors 3 times in a ten year span isn't a good thing. :ugh:
Well, yes. Royalty in the empire is supposed to go on for hundreds of years. But that said the empire has had a lot of socially disruptive stuff thrown at it in the recent past (as in since the game began). Is it so odd that it's politics would be in flux?
It is the Age of the Revolving Throne.
Where Emperor after Emperor attempted to sit on the Throne and was cast off.
Then Saint (Insert Name Here) put an end to it, when (gender appropriate pronoun) received the Wisdom of God, creating another book of Scripture and bringing peace and order to the Empire.
And there was much rejoicing.
I have to say this seems reasonable to me. Let's hope if they do get rid of her they don't take too long finding a replacement.
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Ahwell, am I happy with how things develop for the Empire? No, not really. But as Amarr, we will see it through. :) God is on our side.
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Ahwell, am I happy with how things develop for the Empire? No, not really. But as Amarr, we will see it through. :) God is on our side.
Are you sure about that? Bear in mind that God in reality is vague & unknowable (or non-existant depending on your perspective).
God as far as EVE Online is concerned is CCP. Or more specifically whoever is in charge of Plot. That would make EVE's God the deceiver & destroyer of Minmatar legend, no?
:D
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:/
I think her irrational behavior could have been more shown rather than described.
This seems a quick rush to take out the trash across all factions.
While this is generally a good thing as we purge our Tony G-isms like so much bad seafood, care in the method is important.
That being said I'll be doing many a happy dance when she's dead and burred permanently.
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Psch, Arnulf, you're confusing CCP with God, really. ;P
And yah, I have to kind'a agree with Silas, at least on the general point: Generally it's a good thing to purge the TonyG-isms, but it's bad to do it if it does make matters worse. <,<
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Psch, Arnulf, you're confusing CCP with God, really. ;P
<snip>
No. I am correctly identifying CCP as God, for the purposes of the EVE Online universe. They did create it after all.
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I'd also like to state that I would really, really like us to have an Imperial ruler with no secret heretical backstory or dramatic WTF revelations.
There's plenty of 'bad guys' in the Empire within and without; let's get a legit House Heir in there running the show for once. No secret blooders, no dead alien brain demons, just Righteous Amarr being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern Capsuleer Era and emerging as the spears of dominance they should be aspiring to be.
RealPoliticking and Heir Drama: Yes.
Sekret WTF revelations: No.
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I do have to admit that The Empress's background as some kind of split personality zombie thing, is going to be a bit confusing.
Although it opens up the Amarr arc to an interesting development in terms of What CCP can to do
Also first Backstage post :D
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Hey, I know you!
Welcome to the Backstage. I liked your first post and hope to see many more in the future. :)
Why? Just kill her. The Empire is so strong, it could survive the Mad Emperor; it will also survive a new secession.
Because I'm fond of her.
b]Edit:[/b] As for: "I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of the Amarr." She is also "head"/"overlord" of the Khanid Kingdom (see Eterne comment/brain-fart on the Eve-forum (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793)); she is also the "religious head/"overlord"(see St. Tetrimon chron (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Cult_of_Tetrimon_%28Chronicle%29)) of the amarr church/faith. So she is two in one :P :lol:. Which makes her de jure and de facto worldly- and religious leader of the Khanid Kingdom (see here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29)).
I'm unsure what your point is. What does whether or not she's the head of the Khanid Kingdom or the Amarr church have to do with anything?
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I think part of the thing that bugs me about this is that Sarum's derpier bits had been papered over fairly effectively thus far. Past the initial return, Sarum has astutely handled multiple major political shifts in the Empire with no hint of crazy/possession/split-personality/whatever.
I'm probably being a bit overprotective of my faction here, but it seems like we'd finally managed to smooth the road a bit, and now CCP is going to eject all that in favor of a clean sweep.
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Hey, I know you!
Welcome to the Backstage. I liked your first post and hope to see many more in the future. :)
Why? Just kill her. The Empire is so strong, it could survive the Mad Emperor; it will also survive a new secession.
Because I'm fond of her.
b]Edit:[/b] As for: "I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of the Amarr." She is also "head"/"overlord" of the Khanid Kingdom (see Eterne comment/brain-fart on the Eve-forum (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2567793#post2567793)); she is also the "religious head/"overlord"(see St. Tetrimon chron (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Cult_of_Tetrimon_%28Chronicle%29)) of the amarr church/faith. So she is two in one :P :lol:. Which makes her de jure and de facto worldly- and religious leader of the Khanid Kingdom (see here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Publius_Valerius_%28Character%29)).
I'm unsure what your point is. What does whether or not she's the head of the Khanid Kingdom or the Amarr church have to do with anything?
Saying... She is also your head.... meaning; the old times were you, as khanid RP, could look over to Jamyl and said your true opinion are over; moreover she rules now you too. :P So it should sais: "I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of ME." :D So privately have I call her in the past also "drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive,", as I was save far, far, far away in the Kingdom :lol: (a lot of my character is around, that he doesnt like her. :D).
I'd also like to state that I would really, really like us to have an Imperial ruler with no secret heretical backstory or dramatic WTF revelations.
There's plenty of 'bad guys' in the Empire within and without; let's get a legit House Heir in there running the show for once. No secret blooders, no dead alien brain demons, just Righteous Amarr being dragged kicking and screaming into the modern Capsuleer Era and emerging as the spears of dominance they should be aspiring to be.
RealPoliticking and Heir Drama: Yes.
Sekret WTF revelations: No.
I totally agree. As for the five heirs, I havent choose one :D; but a normal heir for ones would be great.
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I think part of the thing that bugs me about this is that Sarum's derpier bits had been papered over fairly effectively thus far. Past the initial return, Sarum has astutely handled multiple major political shifts in the Empire with no hint of crazy/possession/split-personality/whatever.
I'm probably being a bit overprotective of my faction here, but it seems like we'd finally managed to smooth the road a bit, and now CCP is going to eject all that in favor of a clean sweep.
This. Her portrayal in-game up to this point has been rather sound and respectable. It's very annoying for them to suddenly drop all this shit on us.
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I'm unsure what your point is. What does whether or not she's the head of the Khanid Kingdom or the Amarr church have to do with anything?
Saying... She is also your head.... meaning; the old times were you, as khanid RP, could look over to Jamyl and said your true opinion are over; moreover she rules now you too. :P So it should sais: "I like having a drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive, superweapon wielding Empress as the head of ME." :D So privately have I call her in the past also "drug-using, orgy having, manic-depressive,", as I was save far, far, far away in the Kingdom :lol: (a lot of my character is around, that he doesnt like her. :D).
As I said, I like the Empress. I find her much more interesting than Khanid. Her status as the head of the Amarr church doesn't bother me at all. *Makkal* doesn't like the idea of the Empress ruling over the Kingdom, but I'm not her.
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I think part of the thing that bugs me about this is that Sarum's derpier bits had been papered over fairly effectively thus far. Past the initial return, Sarum has astutely handled multiple major political shifts in the Empire with no hint of crazy/possession/split-personality/whatever.
I'm probably being a bit overprotective of my faction here, but it seems like we'd finally managed to smooth the road a bit, and now CCP is going to eject all that in favor of a clean sweep.
This. Her portrayal in-game up to this point has been rather sound and respectable. It's very annoying for them to suddenly drop all this shit on us.
I agree. CCP should have imho went on to de-TonyG-ing Jamyl, rather than supposedly de-TonG-ing the Empire by cutting her off.
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Thought: Why the hell would the Empire have allowed such a news article to see the light of day?
Why not call it bullshit, shoddy/false reporting or what-have you if you want?
I'm not sure I like the idea of what they're doing with her (she is, tbh, my favorite of the leaders) but I'm not really sure what stance to take on things, whether it's "ccp stahp" or "wait and see where the hell they're going with this."
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I think part of the thing that bugs me about this is that Sarum's derpier bits had been papered over fairly effectively thus far. Past the initial return, Sarum has astutely handled multiple major political shifts in the Empire with no hint of crazy/possession/split-personality/whatever.
I'm probably being a bit overprotective of my faction here, but it seems like we'd finally managed to smooth the road a bit, and now CCP is going to eject all that in favor of a clean sweep.
This. Her portrayal in-game up to this point has been rather sound and respectable. It's very annoying for them to suddenly drop all this shit on us.
Yup, I agree with both, and with Silas when she says that a normal Heir would be nice for once. But I do have some faith in CCP, and I look forward to seeing where this is leading, even if the path is not the one I'd have chosen. I liked much more the idea of internal power-struggles and fights over reform vs tradition.
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CCP is so terrible at fleshing out characters and cultures it's very nearly satire. They still treat the Minmatar tribes (and the other races, for that matter) through the adorable Elf/Dwarf/Human/??? character-class stat-boost stereotype that was ditched way back when (I cannot buy into the idea that Sebbies are somehow born with an innate intuition for mechanics, or that Brutors are just a language and a set of silverware away from being ogres). And as to Gender? Oh boy!
The Male Leaders either are Heth/Blaque/Salvador Sarpati - ruthless, arrogant, sociopathic, and not terribly cunning or like Shakor/Gariushi - cunning, yet also brutal and/or sociopathic.
The Female Leaders are either pushovers who fight back from their (~appropriately~) underdog status - Midular/that Exiled-To-A-Garden ex-CEO, or they're strong and fucking insane - like the Queen. The only two female leaders I can think of with any semblance of both competence and basic human cunning are the Silphy enDiabel and Santimona Sarpati that we encounter in Ante. Not that the lore anywhere else suggest that these two are anything like in the Chronicle - Silphy is just presented as a criminal, and Santimona appears to live in her brother's shadow and couldn't do anything to stop Silphy.
It's such a obvious split between acceptable Male and Female personalities. I was totally unsurprised to find out that the Queen is both an unstable lunatic, and also is a "morally degenerate sexfiend", because how else could they justify a strong, kick-ass woman?
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"The Sebiestor are a lithe, pointy-eared race that excels at Poverty" ?
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"The Sebiestor are a lithe, pointy-eared race that excels at Poverty" ?
Oi. :D
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Found the whole "Intaki are exceedingly gifted communicators" hilarious personally. How the heck do you live up to that? I sure can't change how I am in RL to suddenly being this master-communicator, so my toon has been portrayed as a very a-typical Intaki being somewhat weak in the 'perfect coms-skills' department.
As for the topic at hand, it is true that for the most part the whole 'zombie queen' thing with Jamyl has been kept down IC, making this sudden news (That should have been halted in the presses and had a few heads rolling/enslaved for slandering the Empress) a lightning-bold from a clear sky.
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Thought: Why the hell would the Empire have allowed such a news article to see the light of day?
Because they can't censor the Scope?
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In order for the Scope to get such an article out, it would need to, you know, get its hands on the information.
Someone screwed up along the line in the damage control department, is more my point.
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In order for the Scope to get such an article out, it would need to, you know, get its hands on the information.
Someone screwed up along the line in the damage control department, is more my point.
Indeed, but actually that happens in most every organization if you know where to look and devote time and ressources to it.
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Rumours (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-becoming-increasingly-erratic-reports-say/) getting out about the Empress arguing with herself? Yes, I'd call that a pretty bad leak from the Imperial Court. So, who's the next Emperor? Aritcio? Yonis? Uriam hasn't been doing really well, the Sarum Heir is still in Jamyl's shadow, Khanid isn't probably suitable... well, Catiz Tash-Murkon would be a wild card. (And finally, the Chamberlain Pomik(ide) Haromi is Sarum.)
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Rumours (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/empress-jamyl-i-becoming-increasingly-erratic-reports-say/) getting out about the Empress arguing with herself? Yes, I'd call that a pretty bad leak from the Imperial Court. So, who's the next Emperor? Aritcio? Yonis? Uriam hasn't been doing really well, the Sarum Heir is still in Jamyl's shadow, Khanid isn't probably suitable... well, Catiz Tash-Murkon would be a wild card. (And finally, the Chamberlain Pomik(ide) Haromi is Sarum.)
"Aside from Sarum heir we need to see a few new heirs before the next emperor is elected." <- Would be Crows view.
Anything that changes the current stuff. As long as Amarr finally get an Amarrian leader. Liberal, conservative or pink; Who cares at this point?
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In order for the Scope to get such an article out, it would need to, you know, get its hands on the information.
Someone screwed up along the line in the damage control department, is more my point.
Indeed, but actually that happens in most every organization if you know where to look and devote time and ressources to it.
Well, as I see it everything that you can read in the article is something we already knew, more or less, just with a negative spin to it. vOv
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In B4 her clone status gets out, she flees to the Kingdom and Khanid gives her asylum and protection from the other Heirs.
...Before turning her over to regain full heir status :twisted:
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In B4 her clone status gets out, she flees to the Kingdom and Khanid gives her asylum and protection from the other Heirs.
...Before turning her over to regain full heir status :twisted:
I...
...Kinda want this to happen. Khanid for Emperor!
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In B4 her clone status gets out, she flees to the Kingdom and Khanid gives her asylum and protection from the other Heirs.
...Before turning her over to regain full heir status :twisted:
I...
...Kinda want this to happen. Khanid for Emperor!
Never going to happen. Even if he did this he would have betrayed an Emperor/Empress for a SECOND time and none of the other heirs would be happy to have a repeat-offender of treason in their midst, no matter who he back-stabbed for what reason.
Unless CCP does a /retard-ball and passes it to the heirs to hold for a while, ala One day war etc.
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Merimeth continues to derp things up. GJ, Merimeth. :bash:
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For those wondering what Esna's referring to. (https://forums.eveonline.com/default.aspx?g=posts&m=2963747#post2963747) :P
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Merimeth is being proper. You liberals just need to stop whining!
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I'm going to assume that was a bit of sarcasm and not an actual urdoinitwrong.
Really, Samira, I don't think so.
We spent years being the herf-blurf we-rape-slaves-and-break-all-our-own-laws race. It took us ages to get over having a child molester as a leader. We had him try to commit genocide for no apparent reason except For The Evulz.
Really, Samira, we've spent long enough being the pariah race. I'm tired of it. I want to be able to have a discussion that doesn't ultimately come down to "RAWR YOU STEAL OUR PEOPLE" or some variation thereof.
So I don't think it's "whining" to - for just a while - want our leaders to be a reasonable person who doesn't go out and provoke the entire rest of New Eden and make 75% of my RP the same old rehashed arguments.
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It was a playful jab. Don't take it so seriously. :P Next time I'll add a smiley face.
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So I don't think it's "whining" to - for just a while - want our leaders to be a reasonable person who doesn't go out and provoke the entire rest of New Eden and make 75% of my RP the same old rehashed arguments.
Sounds to me like House Sarum are finally acting like House Sarum, or at least giving the peacenicks something to argue over.
Many people in the Empire don't give much care to provoking the lesser races. Many also disagree with them, but I imagine many people signing up for an IMPERIAL CRUSADE (the 24th one!) have just that sort of thing in mind, bringing the Lord to everyone weather they want it or not.
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And yeah, what Silas said. Slavery and the Reclaiming is a part of Amarr culture. I don't see how it's 'derping' for established extremist Houses to be aggressively pro-Reclaiming.
Amarr has room for both traditionalists and liberals. It'd be a very boring faction if it was solely comprised of the latter.
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And yeah, what Silas said. Slavery and the Reclaiming is a part of Amarr culture. I don't see how it's 'derping' for established extremist Houses to be aggressively pro-Reclaiming.
Amarr has room for both traditionalists and liberals. It'd be a very boring faction if it was solely comprised of the latter.
^
Being pro-Amarr IC means you have to deal with all of the awful awful things your faction has done / is doing / is planning to do, forever. People will give you grief about it (and rightly so). Enemies of the Empire aren't generally going to distinguish which House you support, or how you feel about slavery. They will paint you with a broad brush, justified or not.
If your character believes in the awful things the Empire does then criticisms are water off a duck's back.
If they don't then that can cause difficulties.
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There is always room for Amarr reformers and liberals, but accepting and having to RP around all of the horribad stuff the Empire does is part of that package.
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The problem is not what conservatives and extremists do ICly. That's expected.
The issue is the constant and utter silence, or even apathy, coming from the so called liberal Houses. We never hear of liberals, we just keep hearing again and again of Sarum and the likes. No wonder why Esna or other Amarrians continue to get the consequences of that ICly. If we don't read about a vocal opposition, it's like the whole Empire condone it.
Considering how Heideran was considered during centuries, and how his doctrines and way of life were so loved and spreaded around, I have difficulties to believe that everyone in the Empire suddenly stopped voicing their concerns about that as well.
Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...
On the other hand we keep hearing again and again about the oh-so-awesome Ardishapur, and the Sarumites now. Yay. Again.
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The problem is not what conservatives and extremists do ICly. That's expected.
The issue is the constant and utter silence, or even apathy, coming from the so called liberal Houses. We never hear of liberals, we just keep hearing again and again of Sarum and the likes. No wonder why Esna or other Amarrians continue to get the consequences of that ICly. If we don't read about a vocal opposition, it's like the whole Empire condone it.
Considering how Heideran was considered during centuries, and how his doctrines and way of life were so loved and spreaded around, I have difficulties to believe that everyone in the Empire suddenly stopped voicing their concerns about that as well.
Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...
On the other hand we keep hearing again and again about the oh-so-awesome Ardishapur, and the Sarumites now. Yay. Again.
Just a few short years ago we had a peacenick emperor writing the Pax Amar, winning international peace awards, and calling for an end to the reclaiming.
Hiederaan and Doriam both were drastically different than Jamyl in tone and disposition.
Jamyl is aggressive and pro-reclaiming, and has a tight grip on the Heirs, we aren't likely to hear much dissent from liberal Houses in this current environment.
House Sarum probably didn't like it much when the last two Emperors were calling for more peace and understanding.
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Lyn has it here. I rolled an Amarr on the basis I would be playing a faction that was more than GRRR ARGH ENSLAVE RAWR. In the past few years, we have finally been able to develop a faction that has more than that single facet. However, when the defining face of Amarr action is once again "Hey, we're stealing all your people, k?" then interactivity is more or less nil.
Silas, you like playing the controlling supremacist. I get that. That's fine. The problem is that - especially given that most people perceive the Empire as a monolithic entity - these kinds of things (whether done by CCP or another player) end up being reflected onto all of us, and end up stomping flat what a lot of us have enjoyed doing for some time.
As I said before, RPing a side where every single conversation ends up being distilled down to SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY simply is not fun for me.
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Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...
Weak? Kor-Azor is the Amarrian Batman, and probably the most good amongst the current crop of heirs. He's also the Imperial Chancellor, which gives him a lot of political power. He just keeps it quiet, to maintain his political standing I'd assume. That doesn't make him weak, just subtle. If he were to become Emperor, I'd assume he'd implement Heideran-style reforms.
Also, while House Ardishapur is the most traditional House in general, it's rather liberal about the Reclaiming. Ardishapur supports sending missionaries and converting people through peaceful methods, rather than through military conquest.
And no, Catiz isn't a good opponent. She and Tash-Murkon are closer to the Kingdom than to the Empire, and that isn't a good thing (concerned with how to make the most money out of their slaves, treating them like actual property). She's progressive in regards to the Empire's economy, but she likely views slaves as a free labor force, and war as a path to more ISK.
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The problem is that - especially given that most people perceive the Empire as a monolithic entity - these kinds of things (whether done by CCP or another player) end up being reflected onto all of us, and end up stomping flat what a lot of us have enjoyed doing for some time.
As I said before, RPing a side where every single conversation ends up being distilled down to SLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERYSLAVERY simply is not fun for me.
I'm just hearing a lot of sadface from you because one of the houses and the Empress are doing the bad things again.
Like I said there were -many- years of docile Emperors dedicated to peace and a kinder, gentler Amarr. The conservatives had it rough then, you and yours have it rough now. The pendulum swings.
The Caldari who don't like Heth have to deal with outsiders lumping them together, and dealing with opposing his politics while trying to stay loyal. This seems no different than your situation.
If the people you are talking to distill every conversation down to the same 1 talking point then find new people to talk to.
If they lump you in with you entire faction without getting to know you character then that's on them, and likely not worth your time.
Rolling amarr RP is not easy mode you will absolutely be trolled IC for the nastier bits of policy and history -all the time-.
And there were plenty of us doing the conservative, warmongering Amarr thing when it was politically unpopular, and we had peace-seeking Emperors and the entire politics of the Empire was -not- going in that direction.
Liberals had YEARS of PF plotline 'weakening' the conservative Amarr factions.
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All those years are backstory. The conservatives are active today in real time.
Players have short and selective memories.
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Esna, are you seriously complaining that the most hardcore Warrior Reclaiming House, in a time of war, with a pro-reclaiming warrior-queen on the throne, is promoting the idea of The Reclaiming?
And you're complaining that none of the other houses voice dissenting views? It's never been in the character of the Heirs to air each others' dirty laundry in the open - that's just not how holder politics are managed. Even if it was, Merimeth is Jamyl's closest ally - there is literally nothing to gain by openly challenging his plan to dedicate more resources to the ongoing war.
I understand the feeling of resentment, but if you didn't want to get into arguments about slavery and religious oppression, maybe you shouldn't be playing the faction of the slavers and religious oppressors (or maybe you should find other people to have arguments with). At least the Caldari have a legitimate complaint in how their faction changed from megacorporate to fascist, because that was an unprecedented tonal shift.
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Actually, might be wrong, but as it stands most Heirs have remained silent. Sarum want war, Ardishapur wants an education reform, Kador is "controlling" the feasting on his land. The Amarr plot is mostly starting, we've seen a lot of Caldari and Minmatarr up to now, and some Gallente, give them some time to develop the Amarr.
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Meh, I was rather grumpy to begin with earlier today, and that definitely effected my posting. For that I apologize.
I'll sum up my argument as this, however:
- Previous interaction with the RP community has made it clear that the moment the word "slavery" comes into a discussion, it will become the focal point of the discussion-turned-arguement.
- We have not heard a dissenting - or even alternate - view from anyone in the Empire. Not only does this mean there is nothing to distract from this, it reinforces the view that the Empire is a monolithic entity; this means people will not treat it as a "Sarum thing".
- I, and I dare say many others in the Amarr RP community, have worked long and hard to expunge the idea that Amarr can be summed up entirely as "slavery!"
- I find RP solely consisting of people declaring how hideous and hostile the other side is to be quite boring.
- I also find RP solely consisting of interactions with my own faction to be quite limiting as well.
- Note the use of solely. I'm not asking for any of this to be gone completely, but for it not to be the summation of 90% of my RP interaction.
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- Previous interaction with the RP community has made it clear that the moment the word "slavery" comes into a discussion, it will become the focal point of the discussion-turned-arguement.
Has this changed because the Reclaiming wasn't going on? I don't think so, and I don't think restarting the Reclaiming will suddenly make it worse. In fact, the only thing that will make it go away would be if the Empire released EVERY remaining slave. Minmatar players are an 'all or nothing' bunch on the issue, I find.
- We have not heard a dissenting - or even alternate - view from anyone in the Empire. Not only does this mean there is nothing to distract from this, it reinforces the view that the Empire is a monolithic entity; this means people will not treat it as a "Sarum thing".
I expect that because the Empress is a Sarumite, other Houses are just waiting for her to make a ruling. If she decries it, then those who are opposed to it will also raise their voices. If she supports it, then they won't. That's politics. Even Amarr diplomats are shown, in the article, to be more or less abstaining from discussing the topic.
- I, and I dare say many others in the Amarr RP community, have worked long and hard to expunge the idea that Amarr can be summed up entirely as "slavery!"
And it's not entirely slavery. Most of the news we've had lately from the Amarr Empire has NOT been slavery. It's been celebrations (Kador), Blooders, education (Ardishapur), and political reformations (Kor-Azor).
There's nothing wrong with one slavery news after all the non-slavery ones. Especially when, so far, it's only one House (a House that has been declared to be the only pro-Reclaiming House, and has been identified as such for a decade).
- Note the use of solely. I'm not asking for any of this to be gone completely, but for it not to be the summation of 90% of my RP interaction.
I think your issue is more with players than the lore. Simply put, the players are at the extremes. There are players who think that Heidaran was a bad Amarr because he didn't release every Minmatar everywhere all at once. As long as any slaves exist at all in the Empire, there will be slavery arguments.
So unless you're hoping for the Empire to suddenly decide to end slavery (which it won't, since PF outright says that that viewpoint is incredibly rare in the Empire), the slavery arguments will not end, no matter if there is an active Reclaiming or not.
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Just saying, under Heideran's pax amarria policy were probably more people reclaimed actively than under the rule of Jamyl. It's not a question of whether one is pro or against the Reclaiming - it never has been - it's a question of how to pursue the Reclaiming.
My problem with the Sarum thing is that the Sarum family is supposed to know how to wage war. Okay, the leaks we have are decidedly a breach of operational security, but I guess they are inescapable if you want to keep the players on board. Still, it seems to be a bit embarrassing that someone who made his career in the MIO can't handle that. Also, other than that, the entire thing doesn't seem to be that well thought out either. The Amarr Navy isn't structured in a way to effectively wage war against another nation in the EVE cluster and the Sarum family knows that much. A few troops and ships of the Sarum family won't change that, though, the entire Navy would need to be restructured, really. I'd love to see that hapening and after that I'd have little concerns with Sarum going all aggro.
So far the actions of Merimeth only lead to reapproach of the Matari-Gallente after they got so wonderfully up against one another over the 'Star of Matar' incident and raising their attention to his plans. It prolly made politicking for the Amarr in the CONCORD assembly harder as well. Either there is a really brilliant strategy behind all that, which is really hard to discern, or her is an idiot frotheing from the mouth bend on conquering the Galaxy. (And with that he'd mirror how a good slice of 'conservative' Amarr are portrayed, sadly.)
Idiots rarely succeed in their plans to conquer, though. So, really, even for someone pro-military (though not frothing from the mouth idiot-fanatic) there is little reason to throw much in with Merimeth.
That is what's really annoying about it. Not that he's pushing towards a reclaiming by military might, but that he is pretty much an idiot about how he does so, imho.
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Lyn and Esna: As Silas is saying, Liberal Amarr used to be *way* in the ascendant. Heideran and Doriam were both extremely liberal. Heck, PIE used to be a voice for the Amarran liberals and the Pax Amarr.
Then the war happened, and things changed real fast on that front. Most of the liberal characters I know of took a pretty hard turn for the conservative with the attack on Amarr, so its not surprising there are few of them now.
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What puzzles me is that this statement is being made while the Imperial Crusade, as far as I'm aware, is still on the ropes in the war zone and have been so for a long time. Any slave-taking on the part of House Sarum is bound to be met with Minmatar retaliation against Amarrian populations in any and all systems the Republic have conquered.
This all mainly comes off as an extremely cynical backstab on House Sarum's part against whichever of their rival Houses have the most Holdings in the war zone.
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Just look to modern day nation-states and histories of sabre-rattling.
North Korea threatens to start a suicidal nuclear war every other week.
During the US / USSR Cold War there were plenty of Generals on both sides who were aggressive and wanted to launch pre-emtpive attacks and get it over with. Turning most of the planet into a cinder didn't change their rationale or eagerness.
Conservative / militant future theocracies would probably have even less inhibitions about these sorts of pronouncements.
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I could be wrong, here, but my memory is that the Bleaks are in fact pretty much Sarum territory.
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I could be wrong, here, but my memory is that the Bleaks are in fact pretty much Sarum territory.
If that is the case, then "We want our populations and property back" is quite understandable, but I get the impression that either A)This is not the case and Sarum want something else or B) they want the systems back but can't state that directly for fear of being seen as weak. "House Sarum gives a shit? Wow, news to me." To that a "ARRRRGH, kill the heathens, enslave their women and pursue the children with drawn swords!" seem more... Sarum-like.
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I agree with Nico on this. The issue isn't military Reclaiming, it's the fact that the Sarum attack is probably going to get stomped utterly by capsuleer intervention. However, this sounds to be also a DUST event, so it might be more of an ongoing thing rather than a single "lol kill the caps" thing.
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Oo. There's a thought, Aldrith.
Maybe CCP will get to use that "air full of cinders" particle effect again. I've been missing that; it added just PILES of atmosphere to Caldari Prime.
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I agree with Nico on this. The issue isn't military Reclaiming, it's the fact that the Sarum attack is probably going to get stomped utterly by capsuleer intervention. However, this sounds to be also a DUST event, so it might be more of an ongoing thing rather than a single "lol kill the caps" thing.
I agree completely. No longer should events be considered EVE alone, I doubt there will be many from now on for one game alone, specially EVE alone (as it already has an established player base and market niche).
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That would be nice if this ends up being a dust event. I will be disappointed if the Might of Sarum fleet is a half dozen ships that get ganked in kourmonen within a few minutes. Ongoing Dust raids would add an element to the amarr/minmatar warzone that I've always sort of found lacking. Both sides have reasons to go after the other side's planetary resources (people) but all we see in eve is a sterile notice of how contested a system is.
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That would be nice if this ends up being a dust event. I will be disappointed if the Might of Sarum fleet is a half dozen ships that get ganked in kourmonen within a few minutes. Ongoing Dust raids would add an element to the amarr/minmatar warzone that I've always sort of found lacking. Both sides have reasons to go after the other side's planetary resources (people) but all we see in eve is a sterile notice of how contested a system is.
Until CCP adds PvE to DUST, it, too, is unlikely to involve the population very much. DUST troops may run into regular forces and frightened civilians all the time in PF, but thus far not in game.
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They are due to add more integration of dust with FW. So I definitely think that its intended as a part of setting the stage for that.
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Wait. Molden Heath is the confirmed destination for DUST planetary warfare, which is due to drop in just a few days.
If there's no other PF warm-up for that....
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EDIT : Telling us that we are just pissed because the liberals lost the ascendant they had in the first years is quite insulting.
I couldn't care less if they are winning or losing. Losing is even better sometimes since it creates drama for the side you work for.
I am voicing concerns about how incoherent and absurd the ideological situation in the Empire is to my eyes currently. PF would indicate it should be otherwise. I do not find it the slightest reasonable to think that everything that happened after Vak'Atioth for CENTURIES has suddenly vanished in less than a few moments. PF states we do not live in a pre Vak Atioth empire anymore.
Even if the wishes and ideals of conservative Houses is expected (and enjoyed), as I said above, seeing them all behaving like if they suddenly got back half a millenia back in time (like coming back in the middle ages or something), does not make any sense to me. I would like them to be acting like proper MODERN conservatives. Not bloodthirty savages. At least, Ardishapur is doing it right on that.
The problem is not what conservatives and extremists do ICly. That's expected.
The issue is the constant and utter silence, or even apathy, coming from the so called liberal Houses. We never hear of liberals, we just keep hearing again and again of Sarum and the likes. No wonder why Esna or other Amarrians continue to get the consequences of that ICly. If we don't read about a vocal opposition, it's like the whole Empire condone it.
Considering how Heideran was considered during centuries, and how his doctrines and way of life were so loved and spreaded around, I have difficulties to believe that everyone in the Empire suddenly stopped voicing their concerns about that as well.
Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...
On the other hand we keep hearing again and again about the oh-so-awesome Ardishapur, and the Sarumites now. Yay. Again.
Just a few short years ago we had a peacenick emperor writing the Pax Amar, winning international peace awards, and calling for an end to the reclaiming.
Hiederaan and Doriam both were drastically different than Jamyl in tone and disposition.
Jamyl is aggressive and pro-reclaiming, and has a tight grip on the Heirs, we aren't likely to hear much dissent from liberal Houses in this current environment.
House Sarum probably didn't like it much when the last two Emperors were calling for more peace and understanding.
I may be wrong but iirc we had a lot of inter Amarr factional conflict back in Heideran/Doriam's days. Ok, maybe it was more centered around the Tetrimon affairs and the likes.
I am not expecting the heirs to oppenly declare their hostility to the Empress, I am expecting them to go reluctantly with veiled insults hidden behind polite smiles like courtiers would do. And a lot of fucking backstabbing, even if when obvious, can not really offer a clear proof of who was behind.
That kind of things.
Kador is a moron (not even a liberal anyway), Kor-Azor is weak, Catiz could be a good opponent, but she remains silent...
Weak? Kor-Azor is the Amarrian Batman, and probably the most good amongst the current crop of heirs. He's also the Imperial Chancellor, which gives him a lot of political power. He just keeps it quiet, to maintain his political standing I'd assume. That doesn't make him weak, just subtle. If he were to become Emperor, I'd assume he'd implement Heideran-style reforms.
Also, while House Ardishapur is the most traditional House in general, it's rather liberal about the Reclaiming. Ardishapur supports sending missionaries and converting people through peaceful methods, rather than through military conquest.
And no, Catiz isn't a good opponent. She and Tash-Murkon are closer to the Kingdom than to the Empire, and that isn't a good thing (concerned with how to make the most money out of their slaves, treating them like actual property). She's progressive in regards to the Empire's economy, but she likely views slaves as a free labor force, and war as a path to more ISK.
I still fail to see how he is the imperial Batman. He may have power with his chancellor position - which was given to him by the Empress more like a mean to control him rather than anything else - and be very subtle, but I still have to see what he actually is doing. The only thing I saw recently was his House doing shady things on education in the back of his vassals, and looking utterly idiotic for doing so, and more, being caught doing it.
I am pretty sure that I missed something important about him, because I really fail to see the Batman in him, more like the helpless Gordon.
We know very little about Catiz, you are right. She could also have that kind of views. I am not sure where you read that she is the closest of the Kingdom, but that could make sense economically wise. Ideologically wise, I am not so sure of that. Perhaps. Perhaps not.
What I had in mind for her was not much of a forefront figure, but more the wallet behind it (so yes I am expecting the imperial Batman to actually play his Batman role with the support of Catiz Wayne Industries).
North Korea threatens to start a suicidal nuclear war every other week.
During the US / USSR Cold War there were plenty of Generals on both sides who were aggressive and wanted to launch pre-emtpive attacks and get it over with. Turning most of the planet into a cinder didn't change their rationale or eagerness.
Yes, and like Nico said, after Kador already did it in a pure wtf moment in Solitude, Merimeth is going to go full Kim-Jong on the rest of New Eden. That reminds me another discussions we already had on this forum about how moronic/foolish/goofy the Amarr are portrayed at times.
They should take example on Crow, he is the perfect example of what a conservative would be to me.
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Amarrian Batman (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Part_Where_I_Play_the_Devil_(Chronicle))
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Thanks.
Too much text. Will read it when I find the time.
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To summarize it, he's going around all his Holdings righting wrongs in whatever way he can. Whether that be assassinating corrupt Holders, to donning armor and saving people from burning houses in the middle of the night.
He's the Amarrian batman.
*Edit*
Also,
What I had in mind for her was not much of a forefront figure, but more the wallet behind it (so yes I am expecting the imperial Batman to actually play his Batman role with the support of Catiz Wayne Industries).
That would be pretty awesome. While Catiz' House is pretty immoral (they're the biggest supporters of using TCMCs on slaves, even more than the Kingdom), it'd be nice if she herself was a good guy like Articio.
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I find most slavery discussions boring. There's little in the way of communication that actually happens.
I have no problem with Sarum stepping up the Reclaiming. It doesn't defines the Amarr and I think the majority of RPers know this.
I agree with Nico on this. The issue isn't military Reclaiming, it's the fact that the Sarum attack is probably going to get stomped utterly by capsuleer intervention. However, this sounds to be also a DUST event, so it might be more of an ongoing thing rather than a single "lol kill the caps" thing.
Yes, the Uprising patch goes live on the 6th while DUST itself launches on 5/14. Eleven days from now.
The plan is to have all non-FW low sec be available for PC. For the Bleak Lands, that would be parts of Ichida and Ohvarainen.
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They will start, however, from Molden Heath. Districts will be visible on 6th, conquest has been delayed until 14th.
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So, he basically goes around and punish the bad guys. I do not really see what's so Amarrian liberal in this. I would expect most conservatives and orthodox to do the exact same thing on their demesne if they truly are serious leaders.
I would however be interested to read the bit of PFs where TM supports TCMCs, even though I do not see how it necessarily makes of them fanatics like the Khanid. I can believe well enough that TM are probably damn pragmatics, but I have a very hard time picturing them like mini Khanids, especially considering their ancestry and views on "races"...
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So, he basically goes around and punish the bad guys. I do not really see what's so Amarrian liberal in this. I would expect most conservatives and orthodox to do the exact same thing on their demesne if they truly are serious leaders.
I would however be interested to read the bit of PFs where TM supports TCMCs, even though I do not see how it necessarily makes of them fanatics like the Khanid. I can believe well enough that TM are probably damn pragmatics, but I have a very hard time picturing them like mini Khanids, especially considering their ancestry and views on "races"...
I'd link it to you, but the new website organization has made it very hard to find old news posts (old links are broken, there is no search function, and none of the race-specific channels are available at all).
Simply, in the various news reports about the TCMC controversy, we got a few bits of information:
1) They are banned in pretty much every Holding in Ardishapur.
2) Khanid Kingdom believes in the individual authority of the Holder and has instituted no official policy. However, the Slavery article outright states that they widely employ TCMCs, and it is not considered controversial there.
3) Tash-Murkon has a high amount of TCMC-supporting Holders, though there are detractors there. One of said detractors moved away from TM due to his views.
4) The Theology Council is split pretty evenly between supporters and detractors, and no official policy was instated. TC says that it is up to individual Heirs and Holders to determine if they are banned or permitted in their Holdings.
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To add a bit to the Kingdom infos: Ishukone and Khanid Kingdom sign multitrillion trade deal on Transcranial Microcontrollers (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/ishukone-and-khanid-kingdom-sign-multitrillion-trade-deal-on-transcranial-microcontrollers/).
I'd assume that the majority of Holders in the Kingdom use them.
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Oh, neat. The old race news -are- available. Just under the completely disorganized general 'EVE Online News' section. Yay. That'll be fun to research. >.>
Please add a search engine at least, CCP.
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"This is the part where I play the Devil,"
Amarrian faith has a Devil?
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Molok the Deceiver (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Molok_the_Deceiver) is the closest thing to a devil.
"After his death, Molok became something of a vengeful spirit in Amarr lore. He continually crops up in the Scriptures, attempting to deceive the righteous and cast them into sin and heresy. In most instances, he is not described as an actual presence, but rather a metaphorical representation of temptation."
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And here's the news articles, Lyn. Went through the list and found them all.
Tash-Murkon Holder charges neighbor with Heresy for employing Transcranial Microcontrollers (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/tash-murkon-holder-charges-neighbor-with-heresy-for-employing-transcranial-microcontrollers-1/)
Numerous Holders ban usage of Transcranial Microcontrollers (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/numerous-holders-ban-usage-of-transcranial-microcontrollers-1/)
Tash-Murkon Holder to move to Ammatar Mandate (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/tash-murkon-holder-to-move-to-ammatar-mandate-1/)
Theology Council declines to hear Transcranial Microcontroller Debate (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/theology-council-declines-to-hear-transcranial-microcontroller-debate-1/)
Opinions on Transcranial Microcontrollers sharply divided in Empire (http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/eve-online-news/opinions-on-transcranial-microcontrollers-sharply-divided-in-empire-1/)
Exact numbers are not available, but nearly 80 percent of the Holders in the Ammatar Mandate and other Ardishapur Family domains are estimated to have banned their usage, while high numbers have also been reported in the Kador Family's domains. Few Holders outside these areas have banned the controllers' use, with almost none being reported in the Tash-Murkon Region, where the recent debate first ignited.
Lord Tarpur's thoughts are shared by many, particularly in the Ammatar Mandate and the Kador region. Dissenting voices, such as those of Lady Tanash of Esa, are primarily clustered in the Tash-Murkon region and around Sarum Family holdings.
Apparently Sarum are pro-TCMCs, too. Interesting. Didn't remember that bit. Going to have to curb Samira's support of House Sarum a bit.
The most neutral voices came from the Khanid Kingdom, where Transcranial Microcontrollers first entered the public spotlight. "It is a silly question," said Lord Gothin, one of the many to have used the devices. "Use them or not? They are a tool, nothing else. It is not the tool which is evil or good, it is the one who wields it. A Holder should determine what is best for his own slaves. No one else. That is how we treat it here in the Kingdom. A Holder is responsible for the affairs of his own house and none other's. God shall grant providence to those who are proper and failure to those who aren't."
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Ah neat, now I remember that series of news.
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Interesting to see that the Empire is so split about this..Given that a arc involving the Amarr is likely Soontm I wonder what will spark off conflict..and with whom, all these differences between House's still means internal conflict is still on the table at least to me it is.