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[Shaalira]

I apologize if my tone has been a bit harsh.  My focus was debunking the idea that CCP was biased towards a certain faction and thus orchestrated that faction's success in faction war.  That narrative, I've found, has been used to either marginalize the very real efforts of hundreds of players, or to cover for its proponents' shortcomings.

My point in showing what could have happened was not that CalMil is incapable.  Rather, it's to suggest that player actions and responses to the patch were as determinative as to the result as the mechanics themselves.  Anyone who saw the bitter and close-fought battles in Rakapas and elsewhere would know better than to belittle the wins and losses of the pilots on both sides, or to ascribe the outcome to CCP's devilish plotting.

[Desiderya]

I think we're on the same page, then. 

Back to discussing the dark sides of the federation? 

[Katrina Oniseki]

Let me state I am amazingly impressed with you guys for suddenly stopping the argument and hugging. Bravo. <3

[Gottii]

Look people, we need to start being irrational and throwing ad hominem attacks RIGHT NOW.

Youre playing with forces you cant understand.  EVE as we know it might be destroyed by this! 

 

[orange]

I came here for an argument!

[Shaalira]

 

[Laerise [PIE]]

Look people, we need to start being irrational and throwing ad hominem attacks RIGHT NOW.

Youre playing with forces you cant understand.  EVE as we know it might be destroyed by this!

Well why don't you just start by shutting up dude?! I mean, seriously, your way of playing EVE is just wrong!!! 

[Mitara Newelle]

This is why all of you should immediately submit to your proper, civilized Amarr betters. It is for the best.

Fixed that for you

EDIT: Seems Lae already did LOL!

[Gesakaarin]

I still remember when the Caldari came to hold all the systems and the all the large FDU entities at the time left because it was all a CCP conspiracy against the Federation and people were decrying how unfair it all was and how broken the system was. At the time it did look like a lost cause, but then I came to the realization that FW really isn't about how many systems you have but blowing things up and having fun with your guys. The orginal Villore Accords was crafted with that vision in mind.

People seem to forget that SOTF/QCATS were once just a small group of pvp noobs a few years back who when given the options between spinning ships and complaining about FW or accepting things as they are and going out there to pew pew anyway, decided to go out there and blow things up, have fun and take things as they come. The current state of FW is solely because by and large, that spirit of camaraderie between people who have been its participants has not died and the fact that within the VA it was actively promoted not tie morale to what was perceived to be a broken capture system and instead decided to focus purely on pvp in an environment that promoted camaraderie, respect, corporate independence and a devil may care attitude to FW. The result is that core FDU organizations are now tied together by bonds of shared experience over years of low sec pvp and are able to maintain cohesion because by and large the same attitudes of stowing away the bullshit to get the job done are still held.

The lack of success by the STPRO is simply because they never had the same degree of core cohesion by groups who were committed to remain in the fight and do what needed to be done together as one. Instead of cohesion and camaraderie the history of the STPRO seems to be a long history of internecine conflicts, large groups taking their toys off to nullsec when the going gets rough, or RP'ers joining and then leaving when it gets hard, "Because of Tibus Heth." How does it end up a CCP conspiracy when the FDU were able to come together and unify in a moment of crisis and the STPRO were not? Hell, if certain STPRO organizations had remained in 2009 or had made a concerted effort to push VA corps out of Nennamaila when it was decided upon to be the major low-sec base then the FDU probably wouldn't be in the position it is now.

Eve RP to me isn't about sitting around with my hands down my pants doing ERP and writing about how I'm a super important internet spaceship captain seeking to break out my kneepads for some Dev fellatio so I can get some ISD news article mention so I can hold it over others in some cliquish popularity contest. I'd much rather prosecute my RP in space with my F1 key that FacWar offers than ever be beholden to the opinions or what people may think of what I construct or of the faction I play for.

People think Caldari are space nazis? Fine, I'll go put on the jackboots.

People hate Tibus Heth? Fine, I'll go RP a Provist.

People think Caldari are losing? Fine, I'll go ahead and seek to pvp Feds in FW.

This is because I believe that in RP form and function must merge, and to me the ability of FDU corporations to prosecute the work of their militia in space through pvp is the function that befits the form of being loyal soldiers to the Federation. As such, even though they may not participate in the RP "community" their continued ability to do so grants them the credit to the rewards of their actions conducted in space. By the same token, it means that if Caldari wish to win then they should seek to create the same sort of cohesion and vision necessary to be successful in FW and get on with the task at hand.

I don't understand the need to conjure up CCP bias or conspiracy as an excuse to explain why the FDU is able to accomplish what the STPRO can not currently. The simple fact is that you're either willing to do what needs to be done in space or you're not and the spoils of victory will always go to those who have the commitment and the guns because that's just the rules of the game. I certainly feel no need to make excuses. I play Caldari because I enjoy the faction - all aspects of it - and not because I can go all fanboi holding over how perfect it is for my own self-aggrandizement, just as I will remain in the STPRO because the chance to get to fight against some really top notch pvp corp/alliances that I respect for their competency and which satisfies my needs for a solid challenge when I log into Eve.

In the end you can either do what needs to get done in space or you can just spin ships and forum warrior about how lack of success is due to the fact CCP hates you. I'd much rather do the former than the latter.

Anyway, drunk rant over, I'm going to get another beer.

[orange]

That was drunk?  I can't imagine a sober rant.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Veik is our commissar and magnificent bastard.

[Vikarion]

Please read this with the understanding that I intend it in a rather light tone. I've tried not to say anything that could be misunderstood, but I'm not perfect.

A few of the above posts are a misunderstanding of what the complaint is, at least what mine is. I consider it highly doubtful that CCP had some grand conspiracy to help the Gallente to win systems. Do I think they wanted the Gallente to win? Maybe. Do I think that the actual effects of the changes, whether or not CCP wanted them to win, made it look like they did? Yeah. Do I think that such a patch should have had more warning, or been accompanied by a reset? Yes. Do I think that the appearance of favoritism is a bad thing for the game? Yes.

I also think that CCP has been waiting for the Gallente to take all systems for some time now, because they have a storyline that demands it, and doesn't occur until it happens. This might quite possibly be wrong, but it would be far more in concordance with how other RP events (like the Bleak Lands) have been conducted, than otherwise.

And Caldari roleplayers have been complaining since TEA about the "new" portrayal of the Caldari. Quite simply, if one picks a faction for certain reasons, and then those reasons change, do you drop the faction or your preferences? Most of us, nearly all of us, really, really hate the Heth storyline. And the portrayal really hurts recruitment, too. Look at what a newbie is confronted with when they start Eve: you can play as the evil enslaving church militant empire and their nazi corporate allies, or the wonderful democracy of the Federation and their freedom fighter counterparts. Now, it's all very well to say that people should consider RPing non-western standards of morality, but most people aren't RPers, and this wasn't how Eve was originally set up, morality-wise. And this shift has created a feeling that the Amarr and Caldari merely exist as something to be opposed, a faction without inherent reality or content aside from the fact that they oppose the good side and embody evil.

I think that these are real issues. Now, I can argue all day about the patch, but that's not going to change. Nor would the other side agree with me in any case. I would be greatly surprised if any Gal FWer would speak out against a CCP proposal that Caldari would always be limited to 50% LP earnings. There would be proclamations that it was in our interest because it would keep prices high, or that it made up for all of our missioning farmers, or something else. That's just the way Eve is - you take everything you can for your "side", and to hell with the rest.

But I am going to keep complaining about the RP issues I have, and I'm going to do it as loud and long as I can. Because I like what the Caldari were more than I like what TonyG turned them into, and I don't like the idea of what I see as a "marysuetopia" in Eve any more than that. One might say that's a grudge. Well, I happily carry this one.

Now, I'm not sure what to make of the personal attacks, veiled and not. I can only play some of the time - I have a very full schedule most days. This is fine, I like my job. But I play when I can, and post when I can, and I can't be out in Black Rise and Placid eight hours every day. I'm sorry if some people think that that's "forum RP", or that only getting in two hours or so means that I have no stake in the game and no right to RP. I think that such a view is nonsensical - that is, it doesn't take into the account the circumstances of the vast majority of players - but that's also an opinion, my opinion.

But as for piggybacking on the accomplishments of, to quote Shaalira, others (or, if I recall correctly, "my betters" before the edit), I dove back into FW right before the Gallente took the last four systems or so. I have, when I've had time, been plexing, fighting, and shooting infrastructure hubs. I helped take the last few plexes of Okagaiken, and was there with all the other EVOKE and Liandri members shooting the hub. Liandri (and I as part of them) spent the rest of the day plexing up Villasen and other systems, and I helped take the infrastructure hub in Sarenemi. Then I spent the rest of the time I played (several hours) plexing other systems, alone and with others. In doing so, I've taken out quite a few opponents, and, as well, lost some ships. Now, I don't say that I, personally, am turning around the warzone. I don't even think it is turning around yet. But I think the falsehood of the accusation can be demonstrated, and I confess myself mildly annoyed at the casually uninformed way in which it was thrown out.

I also look somewhat askance on the idea that RP divorced from PvP is of no value - or, to put it in the words of CCP Falcon, "The days of supporting a faction with a few forum posts are over." Well, really? Are the stories written by someone of no value because she or he didn't "back them up in space"? Are we really going to say that someone who isn't in FW or building ships for it cannot be held as loyal to a faction? Well, *shrug* hey, if you want it that way, but it's going to leave an awful lot of people out in the cold.

Now, lastly, I don't think the distinction Gesakaarin makes is a true one. It is both possible to dislike how things are being conducted while still participating in the system. Or, in other words, I can both PvP and forum post. I can dislike the current portrayal of the State, and still RP a character who is loyal to that State. I can disagree with how CCP handles matters, and still blow up ships.

Oh, and one last thing.

Let Placid Burn.

[Laerise [PIE]]

meh..

[Gesakaarin]

Vikarion, my post wasn't aimed at you.

This one, is however.

The fact that TonyG was a hack as an author who probably couldn't give a horny pubescent teenager a hard-on when trying to write erotic fiction cannot be changed. The fact remains though that the Caldari State does have very strong elements of authoritarianism, fascism, totalitarianism, nationalism, capitalism and corporatism in its fabric. It's unavoidable that such a faction is going to be associated as, "Space Nazis" by the unwashed masses even when such elements are due to the particular worldviews of the Caldari as a society and their culture, history and traditions that has absolutely nothing to do with the ideology of Nationalist Socialism. This is because in the real world, Godwin will be invoked for any reason at all - just have a look at modern politics, I think if you look around almost every politician even in a democracy has been branded as a Nazi at one point or another.

The issue here isn't the factions themselves, but rather the players themselves who seem unable to divorce their real world morals and beliefs as part of what is mostly a modern, western and liberal mindset from the world of New Eden. It can't be helped if the Federation as the token democracy in the game will have the strongest parallels to the modern world and thus attract people who might project their values upon it and truly believe that liberal democracy is a shining beacon of truth, justice and good against the forces of evil. Does it really matter in the end if players or characters want to portray themselves as the, "Good Guys" in subscribing to the Federation? Because if being the, "Good" faction means having it adopt the strictures of a modern, western and liberal society then CCP might as well just bite the bullet and turn every faction into some form of secular, liberal democracy. That or maybe make Eve one big USA? We could have the Federation as the Blue states, the Amarr as the Red states, Caldari as the Wall St. bankers and the Minmatar can be everyone else living in the projects? Because that's what it would mean if all the factions were palatable for a modern audience, and if that were the case then CCP might as well go the whole nine yards and make it so that there aren't any pirate entities either, CONCORD is super effective and there aren't any capsuleers at all.

I don't think that would make for a very interesting setting but if people want to portray themselves as good guys and their faction as being pristine that can do no wrong while ignoring any evidence to the contrary then that's their choice. I've neither seen nor interacted with very few characters who are not in essence just reflections of the player with affectations and facades of being different, but who, when probed think and act just as could be expected from someone who was born and raised in a Western society. If the Federation is the closest it comes to the reality of the West in Eve, then it seems at times everyone is just being Gallente with different hats on honestly.

There's almost this deeply amusing aspect to that meta-game because in many respects the Federation has already won because if the majority of Eve players are born and raised in the West and are unable to divorce their own views in the game then the ideologies the Federation espouses are the most widely held by capsuleers. When I look at the Summit or the IGS it just reads like a group of Westerners arguing with other Westerners or against the few characters that don't prescribe to the same politically correct doctrines of modern thought. My own character has been labeled a, "troll" because I had the audacity to present opinions that I would say are fundamentally illiberal, undemocratic and Clausewitzian in nature but which I believe to be in line with Caldari philosophy as presented by CCP just as about every Amarr RP'er gets slapped in the face with Dawkins copypaste by people who bring their own baggage about religion through their characters.

The issue then to me isn't about as to whether or not there are identifiable good guys or bad guys in Eve, but rather people seeing the factions through the lense of their own Western morals and just playing themselves in a spaceship game. In the end they pay for their sub and if that's how they want to play it then that's their choice - their opinions will not affect my own playstyle or enjoyment of the game because they can be casually ignored. I will carry on regardless because if people want to play this guy in Eve, then I'd rather let them play in their corner of sandbox with like minded individuals.

Why should the personal opinions of the supposed majority who judge what occurs in Eve by their own Western standards affect my own enjoyment of seeking to construct a character with a mindset separate and distinct from my own with the depth and complexity they deserve?

As for RP and PvP? Yes, Eve is a PvP game at its core and everything else is ancillary or in support of it. And yes, I'd agree wholeheartedly with CCP Falcon, because whilst there's nothing wrong with RP'ing as an individual freelance capsuleer if you state you are a capsuleer loyal to a nation then you should be out there fighting for it and proving your RP convictions through actions as well as words.

[Myyona]

Here is one for the unwashed masses.
Concider that the only thing you know about EVE is that is a sci-fi game with focus on PvP combat.

• Caldari: Caldari society is steeped in military tradition. As a people, its members had to fight a long and bloody war to gain their independence, and even had to surrender their home planet to their hated enemies, the Gallenteans. It was at this time that the corporations established themselves as the driving force behind creating and maintaining the new Caldari State. Even if the Caldari have not engaged in war for many decades, they still strive to be at the cutting edge of military technology and their vessels, weapons and fighting methods are inferior to none but the enigmatic Jovians.
• Gallente: Descendants of Tau Ceti Frenchmen, the Gallenteans remain strong believers in free will and human rights, despite numerous setbacks in their long history.

While I can see the Gallente originally had a weak appealing factor and supported an improvement, I am very much against that this has come at the cost of the Caldari appealing factor.