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Author Topic: CCP are biased against whoever is losing  (Read 10563 times)

Lyn Farel

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #45 on: 14 Jan 2013, 07:33 »

A lot of good posts, either Veik or Vikarion.

And Vikarion, I agree that's mostly how factions look now, but I also believe that the numbers have weirdly never really showed that trend (maybe until now).

The gallente have always had troubles to find new RPers and players in general because it's either considered as "gay" by the obligatory testosteroned internet or either considered as too vague by most RPers that are unable to find a clear cut portrayal of them (since it's a melting pot of everything).

The factions the most successful especially in the past amongst RPers were the Amarr and the Minmatar. Now it's more the Caldari, in my opinion. But Gallente ? Never really.

And yet it is the closest we have from westerner point of view. Why people do not want to choose them ? I guess it might be because they usually want to try something different from their real world. I also guess it reminds them too much of the things they despise IRL. How many OOC filled hateposts have we seen on how corrupt and bloated is the Federation ? How many people truly believing that the Minmatar are meritocrats, or that the Caldari are all about their romantized space honor and decency ? A lot of people project their dislikes of the RL world in the Federation and look for an escape through other factions where they take their good values that they really like ? Of course ignoring in the process all the other very gritty details of their new beloved idealized faction.

Just looking at the militias demographics, the Caldari have always had almost twice the numbers of the Gallente, and the Minmatar probably around 50% more than the Amarr.

Weirdly enough it quite fits to my eyes with the factor of "cool". The Amarr and Gallente are hardly called "cool" by the average player. The factions deemed "cool" are the Minmatar because of the Mad Max / punk factor associated with the rebel side. The factions deemed "cool" are also the Caldari because they are jackasses in their military uniforms and boots and are tough guys definitly fitting the military aspect of the game (And how many military people play the game ? A lot from my experience). Maybe there is a link, maybe not. I couldnt tell.

But the Amarr ? Religion and slavery. People always react negatively when at least one of these things are mentionned. Without religion and slavery the Amarr start to get slightly cool to the eyes of the average dude because they are a fucking huge Empire with golden fleets of glory.

The Gallente ? Probably the worst. People think "gay", "corrupt", "bloated", "weak", "idealistic morons". Their ideals are almost girlish.


^Please note that I am exagerating the trait on purpose on how the masses can percieve the factions. It does not reflect my own perception at all.
« Last Edit: 14 Jan 2013, 07:37 by Lyn Farel »
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Techie Kanenald

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #46 on: 14 Jan 2013, 08:55 »

I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?

Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia.  For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.
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Victoria Stecker

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #47 on: 14 Jan 2013, 09:21 »

I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?

Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia.  For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.

Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.
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Shaalira

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #48 on: 14 Jan 2013, 09:33 »

But as for piggybacking on the accomplishments of, to quote Shaalira, others (or, if I recall correctly, "my betters" before the edit), I dove back into FW right before the Gallente took the last four systems or so. I have, when I've had time, been plexing, fighting, and shooting infrastructure hubs. I helped take the last few plexes of Okagaiken, and was there with all the other EVOKE and Liandri members shooting the hub. Liandri (and I as part of them) spent the rest of the day plexing up Villasen and other systems, and I helped take the infrastructure hub in Sarenemi. Then I spent the rest of the time I played (several hours) plexing other systems, alone and with others. In doing so, I've taken out quite a few opponents, and, as well, lost some ships. Now, I don't say that I, personally, am turning around the warzone. I don't even think it is turning around yet. But I think the falsehood of the accusation can be demonstrated, and I confess myself mildly annoyed at the casually uninformed way in which it was thrown out.

Why so defensive, Vikarion?

I said it was in bad form to piggyback off the accomplishments of others.  This was in response to your previous post how you were buzzing outside a non-FW station I was in while I was docked up, implying that was entirely you.

Ignoring how I was the only GalMil in system and there were 20 Caldari Militia in and about the station.

I thought it was a rather strange incident to bring up to prove that you 'PvP.'  Hence, the snarky comment.

I notice you take quite a few adverse comments as personal slights to your EVE playstyle, based on your reactions to posts from me, CCP Falcon, or Gesakaarin.

This isn't all about you.  Really.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #49 on: 14 Jan 2013, 10:15 »

If we tied our RP to the relative performances and PF actions of our factions we all would have rage quit years ago.  None have been spared the 'WTF' PF moments, the facepalms for great justice.

Tying your RP to the performance of the FW system and its game mechanics is also asking to be depressed.

On that note, I can guarantee when and if the Caldari retake the entire theater there will be just as much response from the IC faction contacts and associated IGS posts.

So get to shootin' and recruitin'



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Seriphyn

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #50 on: 14 Jan 2013, 12:28 »

Right, there's nothing I can immediately address after 4 pages of this thread exploding.

1) As usual, Gesakaarin hits it on the head regarding the "Westerner problem" with EVE RP. I find it really rich people have accused Gesa's character of being a "troll" too, yeesh.

2) Building on Shaalira's points, the problem it appears is not CCP's portrayal, but how the players read it. If a reader cannot interpret subtlety, extract inferences, identify ambiguities (even when they're all implied), then that's the reader's problem. The new articles have a lot of that on all sides, especially the Fed ones I've noticed. Some of it borders too much on commentary for my liking, but sometimes obvious declaration of "facts" is needed to scale to the interpretative ability of the reader.

I agree the Federation has been portrayed way too much as "good guys" in TonyG's fiction...but that's just one writer. There are other writers.

Also, back at Laerise; what Lyn said. Seriphyn IC deviates between passionate idealist and jaded renegade. OOC I don't think I've ever claimed the Federation to be the good guys of EVE. The people, at least, will try, but those in power will have their own plans.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #51 on: 14 Jan 2013, 12:37 »

Just want to add something quick here regarding the state of the empires and all that.

In a conversation with Falcon the other day, he noted that a lot of "wrongs will be righted" with regards to the storyline now that the events and storyline teams are working together. Be patient, and see what happens.
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Vikarion

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #52 on: 14 Jan 2013, 20:57 »

Why so defensive, Vikarion?

I said it was in bad form to piggyback off the accomplishments of others.  This was in response to your previous post how you were buzzing outside a non-FW station I was in while I was docked up, implying that was entirely you.

Ignoring how I was the only GalMil in system and there were 20 Caldari Militia in and about the station.

I thought it was a rather strange incident to bring up to prove that you 'PvP.'  Hence, the snarky comment.

I notice you take quite a few adverse comments as personal slights to your EVE playstyle, based on your reactions to posts from me, CCP Falcon, or Gesakaarin.

This isn't all about you.  Really.

Why so serious, eh? Well, I'm not too serious about all this, really. Trust me, in every Eve interaction, there's always the little notice light going off that says "remember, this isn't real life". In actuality, I'm more likely to cross boundaries in Eve because I start assuming none of it really matters, than I am to because I start assuming it really does matter.

That said, guess what?  :P This is an Eve forum!  :D And I have interest in the game!  :twisted: So I post!  8)

And here I have what seems like a contradiction: I really love being serious about my non-serious interests. That is to say, I can be very passionate about the Caldari State as an RPer while I'm wearing my "playing Eve" hat. I can really want to flip that system, really want a good storyline, really want to get on a killmail. So I can't say I'm really sorry for defending my in game history or accomplishments, even if they are ultimately pretty worthless.

But it seems to me sort of like this. You claim I'm riding on the accomplishments of others -> I spend two paragraphs of a very long post refuting it with what I actually did -> you claim I'm being defensive. Well, that's not precisely a fair response, is it? I don't mind people claiming I haven't done anything if I haven't, but to claim such, get a response, and then attack my giving the response...I don't think that's reasonable.

Now, we disagree in this thread. I don't expect us to agree. But it was a Gallente RPer who started the thread, and I responded to it. When posters after that start talking about forum warriors and so forth, it seems at least somewhat plausible that I might be included in the aforementioned category. And when CCP Falcon directly quotes my post, and asks where I've been during live events, as well as stating that only posting on the forums is no longer enough, it's probably fair for me to be slightly piqued. Perhaps that seems overly sensitive, but I'm generally of the opinion that writing a response is fun, and you look worse for failing to answer a question directed at you than you do by mistakenly answering one you weren't asked.

And, I didn't mean to intimate that I was alone when buzzing around outside your station, and I don't think I did. I was in a fleet, and we were bouncing back and forth between systems fighting and plexing, so the precise word picture I had in my mind was of bees or something busily zipping about. I didn't fault you for staying docked, either - I was pointing out that you've had ample opportunity to notice me in the warzone, so I felt that you had reason to know that your statements about my involvement were incorrect.

Lastly, as to being all about me? No, I agree, it isn't. But I can only approach this argument from my own point of opinion. After all, who makes a practice of going around trying to guess what everyone else wants and then advocating for that? I'm merely one player, with four accounts, and a loud mouth...er, keyboard. And I know what I want, what I like, and what I dislike - at least, I'm pretty sure I do. Providing an area for such expression is precisely what a forum is purposed for.

So I think that the criticism of "it's not all about you", or, "you aren't the only person this involves" is somewhat of a waste of time when it is delivered regarding forum posts. Presumably, since I am not a special snowflake, there are others who think as I do, or close enough. Presumably, too, I have the same right as any to seek to have my vision for Eve expressed. Therefore, talking about it is a perfectly reasonable thing to do.
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Vikarion

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #53 on: 14 Jan 2013, 21:41 »

This is a response to Gesakaarin's post, which I must admit I was somewhat hoping to, eh, provoke, although not in the pejorative sense. There are a few issues on which I must disagree with you, and so, to them.

First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society - if you desired, you could dissent all you wanted, but good luck getting a job if you made yourself more annoying to whatever Mega you served in than it considered you to be worth. This is why I don't think the Caldari even have a concept of a rights-based morality as the Gallente do - it's not whether you have the right to speak freely, you can say anything you want - the question is of the social and economic consequences of a statement or action.

There's no question that CCP has since moved the State towards totalitarianism. And the State was certainly always authoritarian. But originally, the State didn't seem to care if you grumbled in your beer with another employee about your nasty manager, as long as you worked hard and didn't make a fuss unnecessarily.

But I do think that the association with Nazism is more than coincidental or natural. TonyG, whether with the company or not, whether the author of most PF or not, did write the defining book on the current leadership and society of the State. It's very obvious that Heth is a Hitler clone, from the fomenting fake unrest to provide reasons for invasion to the persecution of ethnic immigrants. This from the same nation that, earlier, used its own navy to violently destroy a racist attack on Intaki immigrants. It wasn't that Heth fit previous PF, Heth didn't fit a lot of previous PF, but that PF was ignored or twisted so that we could be saddled with the character for the next five years or so. And, to date, you are one of the very few Caldari RPers I've met who is even willing to associate their character with the leader of the State. Many, perhaps even most, Caldari RPers were very disgruntled by the change. I remember quite a few who read TEA, muttered an obscenity, and essentially quit RPing.

Now, I both agree and disagree about subtlety in the fiction. Yes, to a certain extent, a writer has to rely on her readers to understand what's going on in any particular piece. On the other hand, if most of your readers are drawing the wrong conclusion, it's not appropriate to say "Hey! That's not what I meant! How come you didn't cross-link to my other article, use that to direct you to the in-depth history of the third aforementioned faction, and then use the secret decoder ring mentioned in the history to decode the fourth paragraph of the first article which reveals that the good guy is actually a villain??!?"

I use hyperbole, but a good writer knows that if your audience isn't getting the picture, it's far more likely to be the fault of the writer than of the audience. And it's not exactly like CCP is starved for material. Our current democracies, even our best ones, have many dark facets and evil bits to explore. But, in Eve, for the most part they haven't been. They could have been, but the closest we've come in most of the PF is probably in The Burning Life, where one of the main characters manages to get into a drug problem.

When I criticize CCP for how they have handled the portrayal of the Federation, it's primarily based on the above criticism. It's not that I think they need to make every other faction into a democratic, rights-based society. It's that I think the Federation is unrealistic as pictured - and I don't think that "subtlety!" is a good answer. Many of the problems of our modern democracies aren't subtle at all. How would the Federation handle a population which doesn't want to be educated? What about the balance of social services vs economic freedoms? Are the rich getting richer and the poor getting poorer in the Fed? What's the crime situation like? How do they handle ethnic or religious immigrant conclaves that turn out radicalized or insular citizens? Are those isolated groups isolated because of radical beliefs, or because they are treated badly? Do they suffer from home-grown terrorism? Do they have religious groups trying to use democratically created laws to enforce religious customs? And so on. All of these things could be very realistic and thought-provoking problems, but we don't get them, because the Federation is a "utopia", and almost all problems come from the outside.

To your point about western players, I think that Vikarion has not been Gallentean in mindset. It has definitely annoyed other characters when Vikarion makes statements like "if I have to kill every Federation citizen to protect the State, I will". But Vikarion doesn't even get why such a statement is even controversial, because to him, loyalty to his corporation and nation is a given. I say this to try to illustrate that I understand your point about players, to a certain extent. On the other hand, you can only go so far in creating a fictional culture before the majority of people start having trouble relating to it.

At any rate, it's been enjoyable, and I do agree with many of your points. Fly safe.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #54 on: 14 Jan 2013, 22:52 »

:Vikarion's reply on Gesakaarin's post:

I agree with all of this.

Saede Riordan

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #55 on: 15 Jan 2013, 02:43 »

I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?

Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia.  For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.

Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.

sadly :(
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Bong-cha Jones

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #56 on: 15 Jan 2013, 04:00 »


First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society

I dunno, some of the older material made it pretty clear that citizens were inundated with corporate propaganda and that the only ones who had a good idea of what was actually going on were the few who had been transferred between megas, and that they were typically pretty jaded about things.  I have always gotten the impression that the people in charge were very much involved in shaping every aspect of their employees lives, and that they were the ones who decided what the greater good was and how it should be pursued.

Hell, the megas grew people, they obviously have a hand in deciding how people ought to be.  And wasn't Cold Wind published by a mega?

I've always had the impression that the megas have local monopolies (or nearly so) within their respective territories, and recent information confirms that the megas tend to pay in corporate scrip that is nearly worthless to other corps, and that they tend to hold large shares of new corps, even controlling shares.  Starting up a new operation doesn't get you out from under their thumbs, it just makes you yet another head of the hydra.

There are obviously some differences.  Pre-Heth, the State lacks a charismatic or prophetic leader.  The committee in power is made up of the the boards of the megas, not a national council or other advisors and public leaders.  The State has some tendencies towards oligarchy no matter how you slice it, I think, while the Fed has some very real problems with plutocracy.

I think they obviously overplayed Heth's hand by making him Hitler copypasta, but the idea of a totalitarian dictator rising to power on a populist wave and providing needed reform is kinda  interesting to me.  If only TonyG could have refrained from having him personally gun down Gallenteans, bleh.
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Arnulf Ogunkoya

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #57 on: 15 Jan 2013, 04:25 »

I'll just ask, and I'm sorry if it's been covered, but why are we only talking about 4 guys?

Last I checked, there were at least 17 other factions listed in the EVElopedia.  For the people who aren't enjoying what they're doing to the Gal/Cal/Amarr/Min, feel free to take a look around, there's a lot of uncovered ground to explore.

Because the thread was specifically about the perception of CCP bias against whichever faction was losing the FW fight. Sadly, the pirate factions are not yet included in FW.

sadly :(

Indeed!

I look forward to the day that we in the core militias have to choose between shooting each other or pirate militias now and then.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: CCP are biased against whoever is losing
« Reply #58 on: 15 Jan 2013, 07:19 »

I don't get where we can see that the Federation is an utopia. ._.

( Except in TEA )


First, I think you are wrong when you accuse the pre-Heth State of having tendencies towards totalitarianism. The impression I received from pre-Heth PF, and even some post-Heth material, was that the State, as a whole, didn't really bother with trying to implement total control of every citizen. Rather, the State simply made the rules which you had to abide by if you wanted to participate in society

I dunno, some of the older material made it pretty clear that citizens were inundated with corporate propaganda and that the only ones who had a good idea of what was actually going on were the few who had been transferred between megas, and that they were typically pretty jaded about things.  I have always gotten the impression that the people in charge were very much involved in shaping every aspect of their employees lives, and that they were the ones who decided what the greater good was and how it should be pursued.

Hell, the megas grew people, they obviously have a hand in deciding how people ought to be.  And wasn't Cold Wind published by a mega?

I've always had the impression that the megas have local monopolies (or nearly so) within their respective territories, and recent information confirms that the megas tend to pay in corporate scrip that is nearly worthless to other corps, and that they tend to hold large shares of new corps, even controlling shares.  Starting up a new operation doesn't get you out from under their thumbs, it just makes you yet another head of the hydra.

There are obviously some differences.  Pre-Heth, the State lacks a charismatic or prophetic leader.  The committee in power is made up of the the boards of the megas, not a national council or other advisors and public leaders.  The State has some tendencies towards oligarchy no matter how you slice it, I think, while the Fed has some very real problems with plutocracy.

I think they obviously overplayed Heth's hand by making him Hitler copypasta, but the idea of a totalitarian dictator rising to power on a populist wave and providing needed reform is kinda  interesting to me.  If only TonyG could have refrained from having him personally gun down Gallenteans, bleh.

That's pretty much what I think as well.
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Hamish Grayson

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Re: Seri likes starting troll threads
« Reply #59 on: 15 Jan 2013, 07:55 »

The lack of success by the STPRO is simply because they never had the same degree of core cohesion by groups who were committed to remain in the fight and do what needed to be done together as one

Gesakaarin ,

I quite like the cut of your jib, but it it’s increasingly clear that you and I look at the faction war from very different angles.     

While you view the QCATS et al as as valiantly sticking it out during the rough times when their Caldari counter parts ran for the hills; I view them as fish that’ve grown too big for a little pond but refuses to head for the ocean.     As I see it, those other groups didn’t abandon FW, they dutifully moved on to bigger challenges.    To me, sticking around to feed on young, disorganized prey because they enjoy being the baddest thing in the spawning pool isn’t to be lauded.

In my opinion FW isn’t the place to create a permanent space dominating coalition and trying to do makes it harder for the little guppies on both sides to thrive.
« Last Edit: 15 Jan 2013, 08:09 by Hamish Grayson »
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