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[Nicoletta Mithra]

However, I don’t think that similarity offers a foundation for intra-empire relations. There are too many other cultural factors that I think keep the Republic and State from forming a real rapport.

I have to agree with this: One could easily make the argument, that the royal family-clans of Amarr with their associated vassal family-clans are even more similar to the Matari tribes than the Caldari corporations. It shows, in my opinion, how not the similarities are what keeps cultures apart, but their differences. Thus, if one does monolaterally concentrate on the similarities between Cladari and Minmatar (or Amarr and Gallente) it is no wonder that the two seem quite compatible, of course. This, though, is quite trivial. One will have to look at the differences between cultures to assess the gap between the two.

And I doubt that if one looks at the differences between Caldari and Matari that one will not find a chasm that neither of the two is really willing to close.

That said, I also agree that there are little reasons for Matari and Caldari to approach one another that wouldn't be canceled out by the costs they'd have to pay if attempting such and the uncertainties whether the approach would be successful.

[Gottii]

  If a Minmatar doesn’t like you he’s probably going to be in your face screaming, spitting, swearing and using insults.

This isnt necessarily true.  Many of the tribes have different responses.  Its certainly portrayed by this in RP, but dont mistake dubious or trope RP for actual PF.

[Korsavius]

Basically what Kat and John said.

Kor IC, beyond attempting to expand business relations, also truly did want to form if not a friendly relationship with the Republic, at least a neutral one where we did not follow the whole "you assist my enemy and are therefore my enemy" mentality. I think because Kor was the most outspoken one in I-RED about the Cal-Matari Program, people falsely constructed the view that I-RED just wanted to be happy friends with the Republic and nothing more. All of these IC opinions and feelings Kor has as a character are in part due to the relationships he built while training to become a capsuleer in the Republic.

But overall I am quite pleased with the Cal-Matari Program, and I'm kind of glad I shut it down. Seeing the political shitstorm unfold is much more interesting than continuing to try and help filthy Matari peasants, anyway ;p

[Lyn Farel]

That thread was enlightening, good points on both sides.

Eventually anyway all of this really is to be discussed ICly.

[Katrina Oniseki]

It seems that the xenophobic nature of the Caldari people is conveniently forgotten.

Caldari PF clearly states the Caldari are not xenophobic. What you may be referring to is the Patriot Caldari trade doctrine of generally avoiding foreign markets, instead focusing internally. Might be wrong about that. Best to ask Dex or someone from WHG.

"Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules."

The post by I-REDs John Revenent kind of outlines the Caldari mindset pretty well, they made billions off the Minmatar market.

Not in it, off it.

As someone who has worked with John very closely for the past year+, who has personally edited many of his IGS posts and Alliance mails to match his wording to his meaning... I can safely say you are reading too much into the semantics of his post.

Abusive mindset, not a cooperative, abusive.

That is a Practical Caldari outlook, not Liberal.

Liberal Caldari trade practices (as 'Liberal' is a trade doctrine, not really a political one) stress cooperative trade with foreign markets. That isn't to say we aren't shrewd, or that we have no backbone... but it means we aren't hiding a big stick behind our back while we shake your hand.

Again, I can speak firmly that I-RED did not 'abuse' the Minmatar markets. To claim otherwise is a bit presumptuous, especially from someone who wasn't there for any of the actual meetings, did not see the trades, did not handle the accounting, and did not speak with I-RED leadership for hours at length on voice about the RP-storyline.

We went in there to seek mutual and fair trade. That was our OOC goal. It wasn't just some In-Character RP trope we were spicing up our .01 ISK wars with. It was our internal policy of persuing trade that keeps both people happy. In fact, I'll step out of line and say John has personally made sure we LOSE MONEY on many of our RP trade deals because he doesn't want I-RED to be avoided for being too shrewd.

Yes, you read that correctly. We sometimes trade at a loss because John wants to make sure people will make money by roleplaying with us.

So, with as much respect as I can muster... if you would like to insist that we somehow were somehow abusive to the Matari either OOC or IC, knowingly and willingly... please provide some sort of evidence. Don't point out semantics in John's post to highlight some conspiracy of abuse and exploitation.

[orange]

It seems that the xenophobic nature of the Caldari people is conveniently forgotten.

Caldari PF clearly states the Caldari are not xenophobic. What you may be referring to is the Patriot Caldari trade doctrine of generally avoiding foreign markets, instead focusing internally. Might be wrong about that. Best to ask Dex or someone from WHG.

"Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules."

I think you would find that, when the Patriots act most xenophobic, it is actually not towards the Minmatar.  It is predominantly towards the Federation, but plenty of us have concerns about the influence of the Empire that get discussed internally.  Years ago, LDIS called I-RED out for its activities in Providence and lack of support in the State  (Gosh, this crow taste good).

[Natalcya Katla]

I picture the Caldari-Minmatar friendliness as being more a capsuleer trend than a baseliner one. For a capsuleer, who enjoys the wealth and freedom to travel anywhere and talk to anybody, developing a romantic kind of kinship with that other group of presumably valiant once-rebel fighters - and regret that they're not on the same side - is perfectly reasonable. For the huge majority of their respective fellow citizens, I expect those notions would be much less common. I imagine the average Caldari has never even met a Minmatar, and vice versa.

[lallara zhuul]

http://community.eveonline.com/background/potw/default.asp?cid=oct01-01

Mordu was a brilliant young officer and one of the more open-minded Caldari, who generally are extremely xenophobic.

Could have slipped the PF retcon, but I doubt it.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

It has, apparently, been retconned, in a way. The source that Kat was giving is more recent and CCP approved and it qualifies the statement in the Mordu's Legion chronicle decisively. Caldari are not xenophobic in every possible regard, as the quotation that Kat gave point out, but "are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules."

Caldari don't have problems to get into contact with foreigners or to have foreigners around, they have a problem with foreigners trying to change their cultural identity (as the Gallente tried to) or to subvert it.

Conversely, Caldari have little scruples to force their way of life onto others: If you're a foreigner who wants to live in Caldari space, you have to do as the Caldari do. That probably counts as well for regions that the Caldari conquer. As I see it, the Caldari aren't subscribing to a doctrine of "Don't meddle in my affairs and I don't meddle in yours." It's a doctrine of: "Don't meddle in my affairs." Full stop. Certainly though they might make it appear a bit softer around the edges, sometimes, but as PF states: "Coupled with the fact that they are more unscrupulous than the Gallente and more combative than the Amarr, this makes them in many ways the most meddlesome of all the empires."

Perhaps surprisingly (or not so surprisingly) the Caldari have very good experiences with the Amarr in that regard. Contrary to what most players intuition is, the Amarr are faithful to the spirit of the Caldari-Amarr Declaration of Friendship, a pact that agreed to respect the sovereignty, not interfere in the internal affairs, and share intelligence on the enemies of the other side. At least so far, the Amarr have proven to be valuable allies to the Caldari and vice versa.

For sure, there is the fact that peaceful cooperation isn't the modus operandi that the Empire used to go by in the past. But then the Caldari are probably intelligent enough to realize that in the past, the Empire largely (since the conquest of Athra) dealt with nations that were vastly inferior and that the Amarr realize that the Caldari aren't in that position. (One could even argue that probably the Amarr were only invading the Matari successfully because the Matari caused natural disasters on their home planet by mining away an entire Moon.) The Caldari can be reasonably sure not to get into that position any time soon.

At the same time, the Republic -probably- only exists because of intervention of the Federation. That and the shared history of the Caldari and the Gallente would be enough to cast suspicion at the Republic. But above that the Republic was taking pressure off the Federation and that was reason not to engage in diplomatic relations with the Republic but the Empire, to again increase pressure on the Federation.

So, 'historically' speaking, I see little reason for the Caldari to rethink their alliance with the Amarr or try to approach the Matari. Also, the Matari wouldn't be assured to live with any less outside influence if they switch from the alliance they share with the Gallente to an alliance with the Caldari.

To me the conclusion is that culturally, politically as well as historically, there's a gulf between that Matari and the Caldari that seems to be insurmountable. Exceptions to the rule are just that: exceptions. I as well think that the Caldari capsuleers aren't in general as friendly to the Matari as it seems. Those friendly to the Matari only seem to voice their opinions more loudly.

So, all is well, imho.

[Hamish Grayson]

Liberal Caldari trade practices (as 'Liberal' is a trade doctrine, not really a political one) stress cooperative trade with foreign markets.

I would suggest taking another look at the Crielere project if you want to know how the liberals practice business.  The fact that a trade partner parties benefits just as much from free trade with Ishukone is just an unintended side effect of the type of trade policy that is most beneficial to Ishukone.

[Desiderya]

But I don't think I understand why the Caldari would want to associate with the Minmatar beyond having another market to exploit, especially a market which doesn't seem to put much stock in capitalism (thus making it easier to dominate, as the Gallente have done).

Who are "The Caldari". If you're talking about the NPC entities they do not want to associate with them beyond that very business area. If you're talking about the caldari roleplayers I still don't see a majority that plays bestest buddies. If you're going to judge this by Summit standards then everyone is bestest buddy with everyone else, whatever they are.

PF wise I'd simply say that there might be a reason to work towards not being at war with them but only because this probably hurts business. There's no pressing need to act in that direction since *some* business is apparently still done (We do still have caldari stations in republic space as we do have gallente stations in state space) and then there's hardly a real war taking place between the State and the republic. Sometimes capsuleers (TLF) clash with each other, but that's it.

The way the caldari people tick is that the State comes first. So there's indeed no real reason to overly empathize with the fate of the Minmatar. Additionally it can be argued that many caldari would rather look down on the republic (not necessarily the minmatar as a race) for not being able to take proper care of and provide for themselves.

In the end it comes down to the characters in question and the base fact that a couple of players can be a sizeable chunk of the community yet they aren't representative of the legions of NPC caldari. In other words I think you're exaggerating again to stifle a discussion.

I would suggest taking another look at the Crielere project if you want to know how the liberals practice business.  The fact that a trade partner parties benefits just as much from free trade with Ishukone is just an unintended side effect of the type of trade policy that is most beneficial to Ishukone.

I always felt that win/win is a concept that's rather a side-effect than goal in the State.

[Ava Starfire]

Who are "The Caldari". If you're talking about the NPC entities they do not want to associate with them beyond that very business area. If you're talking about the caldari roleplayers I still don't see a majority that plays bestest buddies. If you're going to judge this by Summit standards then everyone is bestest buddy with everyone else, whatever they are.

Never mistake friendliness, at least Ava's, for "bestest buddy". Ava is quite cordial to Aldrith, Salena, Logan, and many other people in that channel. This does not mean she will not, with much eagerness, kill every one of them should the chance arise.

Ava has mentioned a few times that, during her stint with IRED, she was made constantly aware of the fact that she is not Caldari. Ava herself is constantly aware of the fact that the summit is full of non-Minmatar, or people who, in her opinion, are Minmatar by blood only. She can be friendly enough, because rudeness for rudeness' sake is usually pointless, but she would treat a Caldari in Minmatar space no differently than she would treat any other outsider; as just that, an outsider. I think a few others who seem "friendly with everyone" have a similar approach.

[Morwen Lagann]

Nata made a good point about this being understandable as a trend among capsuleers rather than in general.

That said, I also agree that there are little reasons for Matari and Caldari to approach one another that wouldn't be canceled out by the costs they'd have to pay if attempting such and the uncertainties whether the approach would be successful.

So, so much this. The mere attempt of forging an alliance with each other would probably cause the Federation to drop the Republic, and the Empire to drop the State - regardless of whether any deals went through or not. The two groups simply have too much to lose by disrupting the status quo for this to be a reasonable idea outside of the capsuleer community.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Liberal Caldari trade practices (as 'Liberal' is a trade doctrine, not really a political one) stress cooperative trade with foreign markets.

I would suggest taking another look at the Crielere project if you want to know how the liberals practice business.  The fact that a trade partner parties benefits just as much from free trade with Ishukone is just an unintended side effect of the type of trade policy that is most beneficial to Ishukone.

Excellent point.

[Publius Valerius]

Nata made a good point about this being understandable as a trend among capsuleers rather than in general.

That said, I also agree that there are little reasons for Matari and Caldari to approach one another that wouldn't be canceled out by the costs they'd have to pay if attempting such and the uncertainties whether the approach would be successful.

So, so much this. The mere attempt of forging an alliance with each other would probably cause the Federation to drop the Republic, and the Empire to drop the State - regardless of whether any deals went through or not. The two groups simply have too much to lose by disrupting the status quo for this to be a reasonable idea outside of the capsuleer community.

I agree with both of you. I would even just change/add one line: "The two groups simply have too much to lose by disrupting the status quo" You could even say... that "If one group has to much to lose, a disrupting of the status quo isnt possible" (as it need two player for a change... as mention before... or as I try  )". So if the Rep will... does it not mean the Fed will or visa versa. So as I said I totally agree, and would just add.. that even a attempt in a small part/portion/fraction... like some sort of "multi-lateral monetary alliance" or a "strategic alliance" or even a small contract wouldnt work (As I cant think of that both goverments are as selfless as some RPlers .).