I think plotting against rival Megacorps stop right at the State border; IE they are cuthroat with each other but the State comes first.Corporate-specific alliances with foreign entities include, amongst others, Lai Dai's invenstment into Khanid Innovations. Of course, it is arguable that the Greater Amarr is allied to the State.
Alliances with foreigners to dominate another Megacorp seems to cross several lines for me, but my State RP knowledge is fairly weak.
Lyn, I'm not sure that most Minmatar have a "staunch independant and free mindset." I get the impression that clans tend to enforce conformity on their members. And to a lesser extent so do tribes. Maybe not to the same degree as the Caldari Megas, but this is an analogy we are discussing rather than an equivalence.
I think plotting against rival Megacorps stop right at the State border; IE they are cuthroat with each other but the State comes first.Corporate-specific alliances with foreign entities include, amongst others, Lai Dai's invenstment into Khanid Innovations. Of course, it is arguable that the Greater Amarr is allied to the State.
Alliances with foreigners to dominate another Megacorp seems to cross several lines for me, but my State RP knowledge is fairly weak.
As of corporations backstabbing each other abroad, there's mentions in PF about corporations sabotaging each other. I was able to find the following:
http://community.eveonline.com/news.asp?a=single&nid=3431&tid=11
(Though for some reason I seem to remember that it wasn't the only such incident - I also think the Lai Dai / SuVee thing spilt abroad... just can't find the news.)
I might be influenced too much by the Summit/OOC clique here, but I'm just probing to see if the desire for improved Minmatar and Caldari relations is driven by actual realpolitik or because these two factions are "hip" and "cool" or badass or whatever.
The Caldari do not seem to give a shit about any other group unless they are Caldari. They are inward-looking or somesuch, which is fine. Can't expect a man to sacrifice his child for ten anonymous lives. But I don't think I understand why the Caldari would want to associate with the Minmatar beyond having another market to exploit, especially a market which doesn't seem to put much stock in capitalism (thus making it easier to dominate, as the Gallente have done). Similarly, if the Minmatar have allegedly not fairer well under Gallente influence, they sure as heck won't under the Caldari, who dont even have the humanitarian pretense that the Fed has.
Now its fine to RP against the grain, I was just wondering if there was OOC awareness of the above points. I don't think the corporation = tribe angle works since thats going to be present in any human society, just with different names. Spirituality doesn't work either, considering there are similar beliefs amongst the Gallente. Cultural similarities are not enough. There needs to be a core strategic reason from which rationalities (such as culture) can be derived AFTER not before.
The original reason the Gallente helped the Minmatar was to weaken the Amarr. The ideology of emancipation supported the strategy. Whether characters want to accept it or not, the Federation is the most powerful empire other than the Amarr. If the Minmatar want to destroy the Amarr, it is in their best interest to remain with the Gallente, not move to the Caldari who have little interest in other races business. They'd alienate all the Minmatar in the Fed, too. If I were Caldari wanting to build bridges with the Minmatar, you'd want to make peace with the Fed first.
I might be influenced too much by the Summit/OOC clique here, but I'm just probing to see if the desire for improved Minmatar and Caldari relations is driven by actual realpolitik or because these two factions are "hip" and "cool" or badass or whatever.It is actually a uninteresting line. So let me try to answer that small question first before I move on. So we have first to look....
...I don't think I understand why the Caldari would want to associate with the Minmatar beyond having another market to exploit....
Similarly, if the Minmatar have allegedly not fairer well under Gallente influence, they sure as heck won't under the Caldari, who dont even have the humanitarian pretense that the Fed has.
The reasoning I've heard behind this is the supposed similarity between the Caldari mega-corporations and the Minmatar tribal structure. While I can take some of the points behind this idea into account, having been a member of SKDI in I-RED, I was never entirely convinced and neither was Kala. Mainly for the reasons mentioned above, to do with the Caldari already being allies of the Amarr. It's why my viewpoint began to shift towards 'Minmatar first, everyone else can screw themselves' >.>
The way you phrased the question dismisses the possibility that on an individual level characters might have reasons other than realpolitik or 'hipness' or 'badassness' for wanting a better relationship between the Republic and the State. (Incidentally, I don't think assigning those kind of motives to players fosters the debate in a useful way.)
There can be ideological reasons (which may have more to do with opposing Heth, for example, than actual interest in the Republic), or even personal reasons (relationships with people in the Republic).
That being said, I think there is a fairly strong argument to be made for there also being strategic, economic, and political reasons for better relations with the Republic. For one thing, if you look at the map, the State terratorially has a certain level of exposure along that border. Additionally, there are various State corporation that operate in the Republic and vice versa. The Republic might also make a useful place for a proxy influence war with the Gallente, forcing them to abandon influence or spend resources to maintain influence in the Republic - and if you are the Federation, you don't want that money Minmatar migrants send home to the Republic being subsequently spent on Caldari exports. :yar:
I agree that they aren't likely to suddenly break with their current partners - but I also think that at the start of the FW nonsense, it would have been far more interesting if they had allied than the current situation. And I also think that the major obstacle to that is that from a plot perspective, CCP needed 2 sides. It wasn't that the Minmatar and Caldari weren't a good fit, it was that it would leave the Amarr and Gallente as the other side which makes no sense.
And just because they aren't likely to turn on their current allies and switch, it doesn't mean they can't have a better relationship (certainly I suspect they currently have a better relationship than say the Amarr and Gallente. Unlike them, the Republic and State don't have much int he way of essential, irreconcilable differences.)
The way you phrased the question dismisses the possibility that on an individual level characters might have reasons other than realpolitik or 'hipness' or 'badassness' for wanting a better relationship between the Republic and the State. (Incidentally, I don't think assigning those kind of motives to players fosters the debate in a useful way.)
There can be ideological reasons (which may have more to do with opposing Heth, for example, than actual interest in the Republic), or even personal reasons (relationships with people in the Republic).True that, but you have than also to explain why that thing "opposing Heth" is a benefit for the other side.... So that the other side improves its relationship to you. So lets say... you as individual (Caldari) have already a good relation to a matari, how those that you dont like Heth improves your relationship form the current status quo? I would say not at all. Just my 50 cent :)
And just because they aren't likely to turn on their current allies and switch, it doesn't mean they can't have a better relationship (certainly I suspect they currently have a better relationship than say the Amarr and Gallente. Unlike them, the Republic and State don't have much int he way of essential, irreconcilable differences.)
certainly I suspect they currently have a better relationship than say the Amarr and Gallente. Unlike them, the Republic and State don't have much int he way of essential, irreconcilable differences.I would totally agree on that.
And just because they aren't likely to turn on their current allies and switch, it doesn't mean they can't have a better relationship.True that..... I think nobody said that :P But it - the relationship - will just improve in those areas where a win-win is possible. Over that small strap of commen "benefits", I dont see any improvement at all. :( I even thing that the current stats quo shows that their is a very small commen win-win (Which got, as the OP mention, alittle overblowen by us players. The reason? As you mention FW, boredom etc.....).
* There are a lot more options than the fairly insulting range Seriphyn puts up.It is his style... so dont be insulted :D.
* The two nations have far less baggage working against a neutral stance than a hostile one.Nice theory, plz explain. As I see it...it is the opposite.... As the Caldari have hugely invested in the Ammatar Mandate (see here (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Ammatars_%28Chronicle%29)), Khanid Kingdom, and the Empire (see Carthum and Lai Dai etc) (and of course the other way arond see CAESA etc..). I would say that form you mention "baggage" isnt so small as you think or which. But as I said plz explain :)
* Both are only too aware that their current allies are far from healthy in the long run and will sooner or later become a problem.Plz explain your theory. I would say on the current state none of the EVE nation is "healthy", most of all the Jove ones. If you mean with "healthy" stabile ones? I would even say the opposite... that both Fed and Empire actually more stabile. But as I said plz explain your theory and what you mean with healthy?
* Both are aware that reducing tension and hostility means that much more resources can be shifted against the real enemy.I would also mean that the Fed needs put less resources to you. As they will most likely not support a Repuclic which is in the bed with the main enemy the State. I think such a move would even split the matari population in the Fed, and shift them to the Fed side more (It would be great tool for an assimilation. As were done it done by the prussians to get the french huggenotten integrate in to the state... but it would take to long to explain see here (sub-chapther Model Patriots (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=de&u=http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugenotten_in_Berlin&prev=/search%3Fq%3Dhttp://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hugenotten_in_Berlin%2523Vorbildliche_Patrioten%26hl%3Den%26tbo%3Dd%26biw%3D1400%26bih%3D698&sa=X&ei=uJ_SUKz2D4PatAa0yIHICg&ved=0CDQQ7gEwAA) or Huggenottes in third reich.... but very off topic.).
* Both are aware of the fairly significant trade and technological possibilities.Plz explain your Theory.... I would say... that, as mention some post before, that "any significant trade and technological pluses tru improve relations, will must counterweight the negativ of lossing another market (As for the Caldari: Empire, Kingdom, Mandate etc.. and for the Matari the Fed.). So as I mention (seíhe above) in the best case most likely a zero sum game. But again plz explain, what you have in mind?
* The Summit is not even a statistical representation of the nations. It does not need to be RPd as such.True that... but has someone said something else? Ans is it improtant (P.S. I try not to comment on the IGS :) Most people know may stands on it)?
* Warm and fuzzy feelings does not enter into it either. From purely practical points of view neutrality would benefit both incredibly much.
tl;dr, there'll always be something stopping any kind of alliance between the two, but there is frankly nothing stopping them from moving towards a neutral position that would benefit both. Especially in RP where it turns out the "stay within the painted lines! Caldari/Amarrian and Minmatar/Gallente only!" roleplay alternatives are just unlikable.
However, I don’t think that similarity offers a foundation for intra-empire relations. There are too many other cultural factors that I think keep the Republic and State from forming a real rapport.
If a Minmatar doesn’t like you he’s probably going to be in your face screaming, spitting, swearing and using insults.
It seems that the xenophobic nature of the Caldari people is conveniently forgotten.
The post by I-REDs John Revenent kind of outlines the Caldari mindset pretty well, they made billions off the Minmatar market.
Not in it, off it.
Abusive mindset, not a cooperative, abusive.
It seems that the xenophobic nature of the Caldari people is conveniently forgotten.
Caldari PF clearly states the Caldari are not xenophobic. What you may be referring to is the Patriot Caldari trade doctrine of generally avoiding foreign markets, instead focusing internally. Might be wrong about that. Best to ask Dex or someone from WHG.
"Although not xenophobic as such, the Caldari are very protective of their way of life and tolerate only those foreigners that stick to the rules." (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/Caldari)
Mordu was a brilliant young officer and one of the more open-minded Caldari, who generally are extremely xenophobic.Could have slipped the PF retcon, but I doubt it.
Liberal Caldari trade practices (as 'Liberal' is a trade doctrine, not really a political one) stress cooperative trade with foreign markets.
But I don't think I understand why the Caldari would want to associate with the Minmatar beyond having another market to exploit, especially a market which doesn't seem to put much stock in capitalism (thus making it easier to dominate, as the Gallente have done).
I would suggest taking another look at the Crielere project if you want to know how the liberals practice business. The fact that a trade partner parties benefits just as much from free trade with Ishukone is just an unintended side effect of the type of trade policy that is most beneficial to Ishukone.I always felt that win/win is a concept that's rather a side-effect than goal in the State.
Who are "The Caldari". If you're talking about the NPC entities they do not want to associate with them beyond that very business area. If you're talking about the caldari roleplayers I still don't see a majority that plays bestest buddies. If you're going to judge this by Summit standards then everyone is bestest buddy with everyone else, whatever they are.
That said, I also agree that there are little reasons for Matari and Caldari to approach one another that wouldn't be canceled out by the costs they'd have to pay if attempting such and the uncertainties whether the approach would be successful.
Liberal Caldari trade practices (as 'Liberal' is a trade doctrine, not really a political one) stress cooperative trade with foreign markets.
I would suggest taking another look at the Crielere project if you want to know how the liberals practice business. The fact that a trade partner parties benefits just as much from free trade with Ishukone is just an unintended side effect of the type of trade policy that is most beneficial to Ishukone.
Nata made a good point about this being understandable as a trend among capsuleers rather than in general.That said, I also agree that there are little reasons for Matari and Caldari to approach one another that wouldn't be canceled out by the costs they'd have to pay if attempting such and the uncertainties whether the approach would be successful.
So, so much this. The mere attempt of forging an alliance with each other would probably cause the Federation to drop the Republic, and the Empire to drop the State - regardless of whether any deals went through or not. The two groups simply have too much to lose by disrupting the status quo for this to be a reasonable idea outside of the capsuleer community.
A slight criticism of this thread: it's been fairly apparent that the Caldari/Minmatar friendship efforts have been purely on the capsuleer level, so to someone (me) who has been reading the thread but not involved in any of it, it seems to contain a fair amount of "you're doing it wrong/how dare you try something different".
I thought that the Caldari-Matari efforts were interesting, in part because they were unexpected. In regards to the foreign relations angle, I'd simply note that nations do not act rationally.
A slight criticism of this thread: it's been fairly apparent that the Caldari/Minmatar friendship efforts have been purely on the capsuleer level, so to someone (me) who has been reading the thread but not involved in any of it, it seems to contain a fair amount of "you're doing it wrong/how dare you try something different".
I thought that the Caldari-Matari efforts were interesting, in part because they were unexpected. In regards to the foreign relations angle, I'd simply note that nations do not act rationally.
For sure, there is the fact that peaceful cooperation isn't the modus operandi that the Empire used to go by in the past. But then the Caldari are probably intelligent enough to realize that in the past, the Empire largely (since the conquest of Athra) dealt with nations that were vastly inferior and that the Amarr realize that the Caldari aren't in that position.
And one third are in the Empire.
Also, I'm not sure where you get that the Caldari consider all Caldari outside the State traitors - leaving aside the fact that there isn't really any population of Caldari outside the State with a similar enough history to even compare them as far as I know. The closest would maybe be the Caldari who are part of Mordu's Legion, and they are highly regarded. Most of the Caldari outside the State (as far as I know) are still part of their parent megacorps (much as, I think you are saying, most Minmatar in the Fed are still part of their tribe, if not clan). Obviously it isn't nearly the same numbers, and the reasons aren't exactly the same (which is why I don't think it is comparable), but they certainly aren't considered traitors.
And one third are in the Empire.
I think it bears repeating that a better relationship with the State isn't the same as suddenly switching sides and declaring war on the Federation or something - and in fact from a diplomatic point of view, a better relationship with the State gives the Republic leverage with the Gallente (Let's make this agreement more favorable for us, or maybe we get it from our new friends in the State.) That's a fairly classic move, diplomatically.
Neither the Empire nor Federation is in a position to get uppity over State/Republic neutrality or at the very least less hostility.
Neither the Empire nor Federation is in a position to get uppity over State/Republic neutrality or at the very least less hostility.
Of course the Empire and the Federation are exactly in the position to get 'uppity' over State/Republic neutrality. First, the State is supposed to be the ally of the Empire while the same is true about the Republic and the Federation. Second, the State depends as much on the Empire as the Empire on the State. At least the same is true about how Republic and Federation relate to one another, if the Republic isn't depending more on the Federation than vice versa. Third, this means that if the State and Republic drop putting pressure on the enemy of their allies, those allies will put off pressure from their respective Enemy.
It isn't in the interest of the Caladri, though, that the pressure on the Gallente by the Empire is lowered, nor is it in the interest of the Republic that the Gallente press the Empire less. The benefit of any neutral stance would thus, best case, be canceled out, probably the allied forces would take steps that go a bit beyond canceling out any benefits - though not too bi, as to not overstep the room for maneuvering they have because forming even neutral relations is an uncertainty as in a world with limited information available neither the State nor the Republic can be sure that the other party isn't playing a trick on them or will just outright block that move towards neutrality.
So if the Republic tries the "maybe we get it from our new friends in the State" move, the Gallente will be playing the "maybe we drop you like a hot potato" card and they will do so before the Republic can be even remotely sure about getting what they want from the State.
If you are allied with someone and you depend on that someone (and that's factually the case in the Republic/Federation and State/Empire cases, each party is depending on the other), than you don't make a move towards neutrality with the allied force's enemy.
Snippity Snip.
The only real relationship I see between the State and Republic is one of maintaining a phony war across their mutual border without actually invading and making assurances to that effect in private while seeking to play the Empire and Federation against each other so that they are able manipulate both in their own interests of gaining funds and materiel while ensuring a movement of opposing military units elsewhere to secure their own war fronts for themselves against their larger adversaries.
Even more Snip.
Some might find such a worldview distasteful, but every nation in Eve does the same to one extent or the other otherwise they'd be consigned to the dustbins of history. The only difference is that the Caldari State is honest about it and doesn't wrap up its intentions in democratic and religious platitudes or moral and ethical self-aggrandizement.
The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.
Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.
The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.
Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.
I'd say if the State wasn't currently hard-locked into the continuation of conflict due to a need of keeping FW alive then its leaders would have realized the benefits inherent in seeking an honorable solution over Caldari Prime through an armistice with Federation; pursuing armed neutrality and detente aimed at preserving its territorial integrity and then proceeding to seek in ensuring an escalation of conflict between the Federation, Republic and Empire aimed at bleeding them all out to the very bone while the Megacorporations use their neutral position to their own advantage to sell armaments to all side while making promises of potential support to all three and then maneuvering the State into the best possible position after the dust settles by offering, "Infrastructure Redevelopment".
That aside, the Caldari have always been described as particularly pragmatic, practical and patriotic - the alliance with the Empire has always been a cynical one aimed at delivering short and medium term gains for the State. Honestly, I'm also quite sure the CEP is watching if Sarum delivers on her promises of beginning a new Reclaiming because then the only option for the State would be to hop in bed with the Fed and apply the boots to the Empire, medium style.
Snippity Snip.
The only real relationship I see between the State and Republic is one of maintaining a phony war across their mutual border without actually invading and making assurances to that effect in private while seeking to play the Empire and Federation against each other so that they are able manipulate both in their own interests of gaining funds and materiel while ensuring a movement of opposing military units elsewhere to secure their own war fronts for themselves against their larger adversaries.
Even more Snip.
Some might find such a worldview distasteful, but every nation in Eve does the same to one extent or the other otherwise they'd be consigned to the dustbins of history. The only difference is that the Caldari State is honest about it and doesn't wrap up its intentions in democratic and religious platitudes or moral and ethical self-aggrandizement.
The entire post is pretty much the best post on the subject so far, but I'd like to emphasize these two paragraphs in particular. If we also add to this that the Caldari has a significant motivation for preserving their culture, they would possibly be the nation in New Eden with the second greatest desire to ensure that the Empire never comes out on top, given they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list. How to do that? Well, look up at the first paragraph I quoted.
Practical neutrality is quite simply the most beneficial stance for both the State and Republic at this point.
And frankly, what the hell is the Empire going to do about it? Cripple their own economy? They're as dependent on the State as the other way around and short of switching sides the Empire simply can't justify severing ties. It'd hurt them as badly if not worse than the State.
You do realize I'm not actually reading your posts, Publius? I don't have the magic decoder ring.
they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.
they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.
My opinion is that the Federation sits firmly a top that list. Not only are they the most driven, especially were the Caldari are concerned, but by far the most effective and efficient at it. Look at what they've done to the Minmatar.
they're probably only second to the Sansha on the "Take over, stamp on everything and replace it with our own religion/ideology/culture/politics etc" list.
My opinion is that the Federation sits firmly a top that list. Not only are they the most driven, especially were the Caldari are concerned, but by far the most effective and efficient at it. Look at what they've done to the Minmatar.
I would agree, except it's a slightly different kind. Instead of stamping it out, it's consuming it and twisting it. That's a whole different debate though, I think. Even if it is a quite solid point in favor of the Republic being wary of the Feddies.
Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.
The way you phrased the question dismisses the possibility that on an individual level characters might have reasons other than realpolitik or 'hipness' or 'badassness' for wanting a better relationship between the Republic and the State. (Incidentally, I don't think assigning those kind of motives to players fosters the debate in a useful way.)http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=3884.msg62344#msg62344
There can be ideological reasons (which may have more to do with opposing Heth, for example, than actual interest in the Republic), or even personal reasons (relationships with people in the Republic).
I think it bears repeating that a better relationship with the State isn't the same as suddenly switching sides and declaring war on the Federation or something - and in fact from a diplomatic point of view, a better relationship with the State gives the Republic leverage with the Gallente (Let's make this agreement more favorable for us, or maybe we get it from our new friends in the State.) That's a fairly classic move, diplomatically.
Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.
The story will go where feature development demands that it goes.
And CCP will continue to develop lore and news articles that gives all four empires cause to distrust / dislike one another, while foiling attempts at long-term reconciliation. This is because war, mistrust, and ethnocentrism all create conflict-driven content.
Speculation on what is in the true interest of each nation state is all well and good. But in the end, this is an MMO. And resolving either the Empyrean War or Sansha's Incursions will result in a removed or heavily modified game feature. Consider the likelihood of the Alliance and Horde resolving their differences peacefully. Their animosity isn't just story - it's game design.
Also, Dust 514. (http://www.dust514.com/universe/factions/)
The faction abstracts in that link basically sum up a development plan involving four distinct factions locked in 2v2 war.
The Empire & Federation are horribly opposed ideologically and represent a peer adversary on the grand scale.
You do not think the Empire's and Federation's core tenants are in direct opposition? Or you do not think they are near-peer adversaries?
Publius, going to put my moderator hat on here for a moment: I understand for some people on the board English isn't their first language, but spell checking and proper punctuation might help. I frankly can't tell what you are saying in virtually any of your posts, and I think that is probably hurting your ability to participate in the debate. If I (and others) can't tell what you are trying to say, we can't really respond to or discuss the points you are trying to raise.
First, historically speaking there is no deep rooted conflict between the Empire and the Federation. They used to get along, though wearily. The Federation's true opponent is and always was the State and vice versa. That the Empire and the Federation can work together if they want to shows the example of Heideran and Aidonis Elabon.
How is this for "complicated & messy"?Oh boy. There's at least one Caldari mission where you shoot a competing Caldari corp. ("Cut-throat competition (http://eve-survival.org/wikka.php?wakka=CutThroatCompetition3&show_comments=1)") The ships are tagged "mercenary", so no standings hits. The pile of Caldari tags in my hangars would probably look pretty dodgy, though. (And of course, there's also a mission where the corp sends you to "retire" an underperforming executive. On top of all of those DED informants and spies we have to kill.)
Republic Fleet have sent me on missions to destroy structures that I am told are inhabited by Federal spies in Republic space, and are defended by Gallente Navy ships. And yet I have taken no faction or, I think, Fed Nav standings hits for these actions. They never happened as far as our allies are concerned. I am even able to cheerfully mission for the FIO and build decent standings with them.
Are there equivalent missions given out by Imperial or Caldari agents?
There is an Amarr storyline mission that sends you to destroy a Khanid envoy meeting with Republic agents in Amarrian space. The storyline is wut-worthy in and of itself (it's made pretty clear that neither of the parties are "traitors" from their larger factions), but due to how derived standings work you will probably gain Khanid standings for running this mission.
I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.
I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.
I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.
Plenty of patriots are concerned about the growth of Pax Amarria.
I imagine many caldari rpers on the liberal angle of such thing have had such thoughts. It's not their is a great reason for us to be friends with the minmater, but we have more reason to be friendly with them then the amarr.
Plenty of patriots are concerned about the growth of Pax Amarria.
A fair point. But the patriots (at least in my time) were more worried about the gallente cause of :caldariprime: then the true threat of the amarr.
The point about the Pax Amarria is that peaceful cooperation between Amarr and other nations is possible. I just think there are some misconceptions about how the Empire operates there, that lead to the idea that the State would have to be afraid of being Reclaimed(/i] (as would be the word that one would have to use if one feels threatened by the Amarr, I'd say). I tried to point these misconceptions out in some posts above.
The Federation is welcoming to all and we have learned the lessons from the past.
We have heard sweet words from the Gallente before. The Gallente demonstrated they only have their own interest in mind!
We have heard sweet words from others before. They demonstrated they only have their own interest in mind. You are likely no different than them!
IC, the misconceptions are exactly what is played off of. Just like the Patriots worry about the strength of the Federation, some of us have carried that forward to worrying about the strength of all the other empires especially with regards to the State.
It isn't about how the Empire operates now that necessarily worries the State, just like how the Federation operates now does not necessarily worry the State. It is how the Gallente and the Amarr have operated in the past that worries the Caldari.
I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.
IC, the misconceptions are exactly what is played off of. Just like the Patriots worry about the strength of the Federation, some of us have carried that forward to worrying about the strength of all the other empires especially with regards to the State.
It isn't about how the Empire operates now that necessarily worries the State, just like how the Federation operates now does not necessarily worry the State. It is how the Gallente and the Amarr have operated in the past that worries the Caldari.
The misconception is, though, that the Empire did in the past uncompromisingly reclaim every other nation or people it met by force, without further qualification. Every other entity it reclaimed by force was, historically speaking, for one reason or the other weaker then the Empire, militarily. they didn't do it with the Khanid, who converted out of their own volition, apparently. When the Empire did in the past encounter cultures that were on an equal footing, they went for diplomatic solutions. I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.
It is funny however to see Caldari patriots afraid of the past actions of other Empires when their own current actions threaten the rest of the cluster (<- that's not a neutral pov, mostly Lyn's).
Patriots do not support the assault on Caldari Prime ?
I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.
The Caldari fear and loathe any culture which tries to subvert Caldari cultural integrity and national identity. They learned this fear through experience with the Gallente, who did exactly that. I don't think the Caldari fear or worry about the Empire one day attacking and trying to enslave them. In fact, I dare say the Caldari would favor an honest fight over the Empire diplomatically trying to merge the State into itself.
The simple answer is that the Patriot Caldari aren't worried about being the next Minmatar. They're worried about becoming the next Khanid.
Because if it came to all out war between the current alliance of Amarr/Caldari vs Minmatar/Gallente, when the Amarr/Caldari win(cause of course they are going to win, am i right? {character perspectives ftw}) the Amarr will recover the quickest, having a larger empire, will benefit more from the fruits of victory (hello all you billions upon billions of slaves, we will put you right to work) and thanks to Heth's little stupidity own a significant portion of State debt. If it's only the Amarr and the State left, the State will lose.So, simply put the Caldari fear that they are either culturally or economically no match to the Empire? While on the other hand being able to deal with the Federation?
Patriots do not support the assault on Caldari Prime ?
Almost all Caldari, Liberals and Practicals included, supported the assault on Caldari Prime. The rest of the war, Heth, and his polices... that's what's up for debate.
I think what Dex is trying to say though is that the Patriots, excepting the issue of Caldari Prime, do not really want to see more war or invasions or conquering mentality. In fact, the Patriots have always been the most insular, not wanting to deal with the other Empires at all. The Provists, who happen to have the most direct control over most Patriot megacorps, are the radical conquerors.
However, I have already had OOC troubles with other Caldari RPers stating like you that (almost) every major group in the State supports the assault on Caldari Prime since I seem to recall quite differently, but without any certainty. Do you have sources or something ? I am asking mostly because it already created heated discussions on my side that I would like to avoid in the future...