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[Lyn Farel]

It is valid to think that this case could be possible, but it is only possible. I still have to understand/comprehend/grasp what is the exact political alignement of Jamyl. It's quite obscure. Considering that the past centuries have seen drastic changes in imperial citizens morals, ethics, mindset, and faith to the point it does not look like the old Empire anymore, I have difficulties to see the real influence Jamyl (short reign for now since she is very new to the throne) has on the Amarr society. Especially since her policies are obscure to me. Anyway, it would take more than a few years to reverse what Heideran has done over centuries.

It is funny however to see Caldari patriots afraid of the past actions of other Empires when their own current actions threaten the rest of the cluster (<- that's not a neutral pov, mostly Lyn's).

[orange]

It is funny however to see Caldari patriots afraid of the past actions of other Empires when their own current actions threaten the rest of the cluster (<- that's not a neutral pov, mostly Lyn's).

Just as there are nuances discussed about the Empire, there are differences between Patriots and Provists.

[Lyn Farel]

Patriots do not support the assault on Caldari Prime ?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Patriots do not support the assault on Caldari Prime ?

Almost all Caldari, Liberals and Practicals included, supported the assault on Caldari Prime. The rest of the war, Heth, and his polices... that's what's up for debate.

I think what Dex is trying to say though is that the Patriots, excepting the issue of Caldari Prime, do not really want to see more war or invasions or conquering mentality. In fact, the Patriots have always been the most insular, not wanting to deal with the other Empires at all. The Provists, who happen to have the most direct control over most Patriot megacorps, are the radical conquerors.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I don't see why the State should fear that being allied with the Empire would lead to them being reclaimed, unless they think that it will somehow lead to them weakening substantially.

The Caldari fear and loathe any culture which tries to subvert Caldari cultural integrity and national identity. They learned this fear through experience with the Gallente, who did exactly that. I don't think the Caldari fear or worry about the Empire one day attacking and trying to enslave them. In fact, I dare say the Caldari would favor an honest fight over the Empire diplomatically trying to merge the State into itself.

The simple answer is that the Patriot Caldari aren't worried about being the next Minmatar. They're worried about becoming the next Khanid.

Because if it came to all out war between the current alliance of Amarr/Caldari vs Minmatar/Gallente, when the Amarr/Caldari win(cause of course they are going to win, am i right? {character perspectives ftw}) the Amarr will recover the quickest, having a larger empire, will benefit more from the fruits of victory (hello all you billions upon billions of slaves, we will put you right to work) and thanks to Heth's little stupidity own a significant portion of State debt. If it's only the Amarr and the State left, the State will lose.

So, simply put the Caldari fear that they are either culturally or economically no match to the Empire? While on the other hand being able to deal with the Federation?

I'd think the Caldari would have more reason to be confident that they do not end up like the Khanid, as they have enough cultural integrity not to convert with elation out of their own volition - especially as the Khanid started so right when they learned about the Amarr religion, while the Caldari were at least able to resist that "temptation" until now. Also, I'd think that the Caldari had a bit more reason to trust in their economic capability. It sounds like a Caldari who has a really shaken self-confidence, who claims that the Empire would be able to recover quicker from the war than the economically sophisticated State economically.

But then, I guess, if one wants to find reasons one can.

[Lyn Farel]

Patriots do not support the assault on Caldari Prime ?

Almost all Caldari, Liberals and Practicals included, supported the assault on Caldari Prime. The rest of the war, Heth, and his polices... that's what's up for debate.

I think what Dex is trying to say though is that the Patriots, excepting the issue of Caldari Prime, do not really want to see more war or invasions or conquering mentality. In fact, the Patriots have always been the most insular, not wanting to deal with the other Empires at all. The Provists, who happen to have the most direct control over most Patriot megacorps, are the radical conquerors.

I understand that, but the assault on Caldari Prime was "unpredictable" and that's what makes the State a threat either through a certain angle, that's all I wanted to imply really. And that is a biased pov, as I precised, the same way that considering the Amarr having eyes on the State makes them a threat is a biased pov too, but totally valid since it has good arguments to support it.

However, I have already had OOC troubles with other Caldari RPers stating like you that (almost) every major group in the State supports the assault on Caldari Prime since I seem to recall quite differently, but without any certainty. Do you have sources or something ? I am asking mostly because it already created heated discussions on my side that I would like to avoid in the future...

[JinOtsi]

I can't recall exactly where, but if you read generally about Heth/Homeworld on Evelopedia, there's talk about how Heth taking Homeworld back has the support of the megas, but they're still ready to take action once his star fades again.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, it's Heth, and the megas are only backing it out of political interest.

Which does not state anything other than that. But cf the other subject that seems to have emerged (on diplomatic solutions). I seem to have found my answer thanks to Mithfindel. =)

[Hamish Grayson]

It's taking Caldari Prime that the Patriots approve of, the method by which it was taken is what pisses the Patriots off.    If T0nyG hadn't infected the Gallente military with a bad case of the dumb that day the Caldari State would have been lost.   Risking the Caldari State on a gamble that should have lost is a big no no in the Patriot book.

[Gesakaarin]

However, I have already had OOC troubles with other Caldari RPers stating like you that (almost) every major group in the State supports the assault on Caldari Prime since I seem to recall quite differently, but without any certainty. Do you have sources or something ? I am asking mostly because it already created heated discussions on my side that I would like to avoid in the future...

I think the real issue is that even if one disagrees with the assault and taking of Caldari Prime in the State, it's an opinion that is difficult to express in public because in many respects, culturally, the Caldari are a diaspora people and for a nation that has extremely deep notions of their own tradition and identity the Homeworld is almost "sacred soil" because it is where every Caldari traces back their roots and ancestry.

Taken from a purely objective political and economic viewpoint the State has been willing to accept never having their Homeworld back in the interest of maintaining the peace with the Federation -- but that certainly does not mean that for some Caldari they did not dream of having their ancestral land in their possession. Tibus Heth realized that dream, and in that single act managed to invigorate a State in recession and people apathetic about their lives in the corporate hierarchy. For many, he is a hero because of it, because he achieved in one day what two hundred years of war and peace could not.

Admittedly, it was just another deus ex machina in a narrative full of it, but that doesn't change the fact that Tibus Heth did in fact succeed.