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[Ulphus]

For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.

Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.

[Ava Starfire]

Ishta Maleto informed Ava of the same thing, Ulphus.

Though, for what its worth, I dont really care. I must admit some puzzlement; Leopold is an Amarrian Holder (or so he says) who is also quite obviously a pirate (A glimpse at any combat history shows this) and who may or may not be affiliated with the Cartel.

I gotta think that all sorts of IC consequences, from the ire of other characters to inquisition from the MIO would be the result, here.

[Khloe]

I'm not sure what the big deal is anyhow; it's not like Stillwater can take action on behalf of the Cartel. I'm sure there are lots of organizations that try to emulate the Angels in various criminal enterprises, but if they're working alone they're just pirate-types with neat logos. Also, is Leo and his crew actually making an effort to keep things hidden?

[Merdaneth]

Well, no wonder why this is such a problem then. I do not reason that way at all. Realistically, if something is a rumor, it remains a rumor for me, period. If you can't prove your theories about others (and not yourself) with facts, I would have started to put a serious doubt on the legitimacy of your claims.

If we reason like you do, then it is no surprise that if I start to spread the rumor that KotMC are sikrit blood raiders with a vampire fetish everyone believe it like the sheeps they are... ? Everyone it applies for Gutter Press too ? Everyone believes everything they say ? 

Of course here, the matter is something else since there is a lot of IC evidence available, and even if it is not enough to tell "Stillwater IS angel", it is enough to say "Stillwater is obviously angel, everything screams it is !".

There can be no differentiation between a rumor and a fact if there is no method to differentiate between the two.

Merdaneth might suddenly say he has never held slaves, that such were solely rumors spread by himself, and that nobody every verified if he held slaves. He can do that solely because there is no way to prove or disprove that claim.

There is no IC evidence available of Leopold Caine ever having contact with Angel NPCs simply because you *can't have contact* with Angel NPCs because, they are well, NPCs....

If Leopold spreads around info that he is affiliated with Angels we can either try to believe him and play with him, or call out: 'Hey, you say you are cooperating with Angels, well, prove it man!' That is what RP is about, because in 95% of the RP cases there is *no* factual evidence either way.

As an addendum: I'm often amazed at people that want to differentiate between a rumors and a fact in a *makebelieve world* when they can't even separate rumor from fact in the real world. A fact is simply information gained through sources you trust, contains information that fits into your view of the world and doesn't have sufficient contrary information.

This is no different in EVE. If Leopold Caine didn't have this image of being an Angel associate (through his bio and other sources) then anyone claiming that would simply be disbelieved. Might as well claim that Rodj Blake is a Matari terrorist. However, Leopold does have this image (partially created through what he thinks as OOC sources), so if someone claims his association as a fact, the rumor has greater odds to 'stick' as it were.

Can you give me the definition of what for you 'a fact' is IRL?

[Merdaneth]

For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.

Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.

Well, this sort of points back to my original argument Lyn.

People believe what other people tell them. In this case Ulphus believes a (to him) reputable source: the EM file. This file may or may not be correct, but Ulphus simply assumes it is correct.

Furthermore, they are believing Stillwater's words on the matter too. The likely assumed what Stillwater claims is correct, didn't do any research to verify the claim and noted it on file. Yeah, Stillwater might have been spreading false rumors. But then again, why should they? (this links to the reputable source and fitting with world view argument). If EM can find no obvious reason for Stillwater to specifically lie to them about this issue, they will assume it is the truth/fact. It is alll rumor though.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

I'm somewhat scratching my head over the notion that the in game bio & corp description are OOC information.

I can see an argument that the employment record could be taken less than literally for people that want characters with non-standard training. It's not as though you have any choice but to accept one of the standard pilot schools for your race after all.

However the bio & description are entirely player made & controlled. I've always considered stuff there to be IC, unless it is specifically marked as OOC.

[Lyn Farel]

There can be no differentiation between a rumor and a fact if there is no method to differentiate between the two.

Merdaneth might suddenly say he has never held slaves, that such were solely rumors spread by himself, and that nobody every verified if he held slaves. He can do that solely because there is no way to prove or disprove that claim.

This is another matter. As I said above, this is about you in your example, and not about someone else. You can claim whatever you want about yourself, and I have never denied that everybody will probably believe you if you say so since as you say, there is no way to confirm it or not.

It is another story with someone else.

There is no IC evidence available of Leopold Caine ever having contact with Angel NPCs simply because you *can't have contact* with Angel NPCs because, they are well, NPCs....

If Leopold spreads around info that he is affiliated with Angels we can either try to believe him and play with him, or call out: 'Hey, you say you are cooperating with Angels, well, prove it man!' That is what RP is about, because in 95% of the RP cases there is *no* factual evidence either way.

Exactly, and here Leopold is not claiming he is working for angels, but actually denying it ICly, which is the contrary. People are pointing at him that there are a lot of IC clues showing his cartel affiliations, which is probably true.

And thus why I have agreed since the beginning with the statement :

This is no different in EVE. If Leopold Caine didn't have this image of being an Angel associate (through his bio and other sources) then anyone claiming that would simply be disbelieved. Might as well claim that Rodj Blake is a Matari terrorist. However, Leopold does have this image (partially created through what he thinks as OOC sources), so if someone claims his association as a fact, the rumor has greater odds to 'stick' as it were.

_______

As an addendum: I'm often amazed at people that want to differentiate between a rumors and a fact in a *makebelieve world* when they can't even separate rumor from fact in the real world. A fact is simply information gained through sources you trust, contains information that fits into your view of the world and doesn't have sufficient contrary information.

Heh, then it is maybe better to convince other people of that then. I mostly agree here.

Can you give me the definition of what for you 'a fact' is IRL?

Mostly the same as yours and generally something that has not been proven wrong (yet) based on evidences. Usually it is something that's can't really be denied :

"Water boils at 100°C"
"12 deaths and 8 injured in the last bombing incident"
"Corp description says 'angel affiliated'"

etc

A fact can then be used subjectively : "The old Stillwater leadership claimed to be angels, Leopold was in an angel corp before too, so it is highly probably that he is angel and stillwater too".

However, the deduction is not logical, it is a guess, nothing more, and that has been my point since the beginning, no matter how high or low is the probability of the guess in itself (here probably quite high).

Addendum : So again, I have no issue at all with people believing he is angel. It is quite logical for most characters to believe so. My own character has always been suspicious and eventually thought "Stillwater probably is angel", though at the beginning she was not really sure and I had also to ask myself OOCly what she knew about that herself since me, the player, knew a lot more about the angel affiliation and had to make clear what were the clues at her disposal. However she would never have stated that it was the case since it is not a fact for her. It remains a guess with a high probability.

My problem is with arguments using OOC to prove something IC. I don't care how true is the fact that the more you repeat to people OOCly that you like angels and all, the more their character will tend to believe it without any IC basis, it remains basically wrong since it's still based on OOC. Here of course, there was also an issue of missing OOC tags and the likes, which added to the confusion a lot.

[Saede Riordan]

Yeah, I basically agree with Lyn here, who puts it way more intelligently then I believe I would be able to.

[Leopold Caine]

I think another issues here is that some people believe 'Stillwater have openly flagged themselves as Angels', whereas this was never the case and was spread around as a rumour.
Not to mention some people, nomina odiosa sunt, made certain things up based on their OOC perception of Stillwater, then spread them around without even bothering to ask for anyone's concent, to the point of openly claiming they have my OOC consent on that matter.

I'm not trying to add any oil to the fire. My point is simply that the whole 'Stillwater is obviously angel' rumour never came from IC sources, instead it was an OOC thing that festered over the time. Leo has never publically announced he's an angel, and the corp has a set in stone modus operandi about dealing with strangers asking too many questions. This is one of the reasons Stillwater never decided to blue Naraka; Naraka's straightforward 'oh, of course we are angels' made them seem lacking professionalism.

So, if you can backtrack that rumour that Stillwater are angels to any proper evidence, proof or anything in that regard, I'd be rather grateful. I remember Leo trolling the Summit about a year or so ago and saying 'Angels are never far.' in the context of a discussion in the Summit. If anyone remembers any other time he has said anything else in an effort to obviously present himself as an angel, please rectify me. 

[Reyd Karris]

To put it bluntly Leo, as an ex-member of Stillwater (when it started long, long ago), there were no "set in stone" modus operandi. If there were, someone clearly forgot to point it out to me. It might have helped. 

So, as an ex-member, and knowing that Stillwater was intended as a "legitimate face" to Cartel/Thukker operations at the time, I'd say for some people it goes beyond "rumor".

Personally, I don't deal with Stillwater anymore aside from sparse IC interactions with members in The Summit. Probably never will again, just because this whole fiasco just hurts my brain and it leaves a bitter taste in my mouth when someone brings it up in The Summit. It doesn't bother me one bit whether Stillwater is or isn't Cartel. But when someone flat out tells me that I'm wrong, that my perception of a situation was not true, it kind of pisses me off. No offense, it's just who I am and how my brain's wired. I can also see how this could piss other people off, and I try not to get in the middle of this kind of cluster****.

On both sides, I'd say take a step back and look at it objectively. Leo's made an effort to explain his position, and has made minor attempts to improve that interaction by including OOC markers in Stillwater's corp description. At this point, it's out in the open, and Leo is perfectly within his rights to claim it is a rumor. Conversely, since Leo has responded IC, there is a potential for this to actually enhance RP on both sides. Stillwater trying to put up a respectable face, others looking for damning evidence, etc.

If others consciously choose to ignore this, then it's not Leo's fault.

Now, an old post that (as an ex-member) should be easy to dissect for information:

http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2009/04/personal-log-entry-003-fallout.html

Since I play the character who's blog this is from, I say it's fair game. It's been stated, many times (by my character) that this information is available if the proper search methods are used. I think both sides could use it as ample ammunition, without giving either side a decisive "smoking gun". 

Instead of seeing this as immersion breaking, why not look at it as an opportunity for civilized immersioneering*? Find an interaction point and pursue it. Pissing contests in The Summit and IGS pretty much turn into he said/she said situations. Neither side's going to "win" the argument, and point scoring is pretty much pointless. So, find the evidence, put the case forward, and start locking and loading.

*yes, I totally just made that word up.

[Ulphus]

My point is simply that the whole 'Stillwater is obviously angel' rumour never came from IC sources, instead it was an OOC thing that festered over the time.
...
So, if you can backtrack that rumour that Stillwater are angels to any proper evidence, proof or anything in that regard, I'd be rather grateful.

Bold by me.

For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.

Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.

EM diplomacy happens IC, at least, when we ask the question we're being IC. If when someone answered they weren't being IC, then it's hardly our fault, and I think it's reasonable for us to treat whatever answer we get as IC as far as possible.

There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.

IC enough for you?

[Leopold Caine]

For what it's worth, the EM file on Stillwater says that upon being asked, they told us they were Angel Cartel supporters.

Which, as you might expect, was completely IC, but also dated January 2011, so any changes may not have been recorded. But at least as far as anyone in EM goes, there's good IC reason to think Stillwater is Angel affiliated because they told us they were.

EM diplomacy happens IC, at least, when we ask the question we're being IC. If when someone answered they weren't being IC, then it's hardly our fault, and I think it's reasonable for us to treat whatever answer we get as IC as far as possible.

There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.

IC enough for you?

As much as I'll admit I don't remember exact events of something that happened 2 years ago, I certainly don't remember being contacted by EM at any point. If this is something you have done in private with some other director at that time, would you be kind enough to send me this document/logs OOCly?

[Ulphus]

As much as I'll admit I don't remember exact events of something that happened 2 years ago, I certainly don't remember being contacted by EM at any point. If this is something you have done in private with some other director at that time, would you be kind enough to send me this document/logs OOCly?

I'll ask the person who was the diplomat handling it, but there's no guarantee they kept their mail once they stepped down as diplomat (or that any logs survived any PC upgrade in the intervening time)

The most likely point of contact would have been whoever was listed as diplomat for Stillwater at the time, and I don't think the records specify that.

[Leopold Caine]

Well thank you for your efforts, if you manage to find it please do mail it over... however...

There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.

So, if this file is not around as you just said, where did they read it?

[Matariki Rain]

Well thank you for your efforts, if you manage to find it please do mail it over... however...

There's been quite a few people pass through EM who could have read that file, Our standings are public, and anyone who asked why they were red would probably be told.

So, if this file is not around as you just said, where did they read it?

The file is in our intel forum, just like everyone else's file. The particular comment that one of our diplomats had chatted with the Stillwater rep who'd quite openly said they were Angels and we should set them as we felt appropriate was a summary of discussion rather than--as is our usual practice these days--a transcript of the contact.

I note that Mata hung out with the Stillwater people for a time when she was making contact with everyone with a Thukker flavour she could find. The Angel connection did not come up at that time.