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[Leopold Caine]

I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.

I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?

Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.

Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.
Once people start using OOC info as IC knowledge, or using OOC info as IC 'proof', that's where a line has to be drawn. And this is is the issue at the moment.

[Gesakaarin]

You know, I think the process of accusation and denial is essential when playing the line that an organization or person in particular is affiliated with another group. An affiliation being an "open secret" is entirely plausible and all it requires is continual acts of denial while continuing to pursue the interests of that affiliate (Angel or otherwise).

It's all a matter of perspective.

The issue here I think is when perceptions are also denied and attempts are made to prevent the construction of those opinions to what is preferred. There seem to be better methods to managing opinions and ways to turn them into an advantage and not a hindrance whilst also keeping things consistent aren't there?

There's also something odd about flaunting an Angel association and then telling people: Yeah but you don't know that. Sure, there might not be hard evidence but reputation can be everything at the end of the day.

But really, what then is the point of an association in the first place if it doesn't allow for outside interaction with others?

[Ken]

I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.

I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?

It certainly leaves no doubts as to the affiliation you wish to portray for the character.

Perception is reality, mate.  From what I see in this thread, it looks like the IC perception of a significant number of people is that your character is associated with the Cartel.  If you don't like that, you should work on changing that perception rather than complaining about it and demanding other people ignore it.  Could be a worthwhile progression to get him where you want him to be.  vOv

[Lyn Farel]

I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.

I'm sorry, my Backstage sig is now something that should be regarded as 'public IC knowledge' ?

It certainly leaves no doubts as to the affiliation you wish to portray for the character.

Perception is reality, mate.  From what I see in this thread, it looks like the IC perception of a significant number of people is that your character is associated with the Cartel.  If you don't like that, you should work on changing that perception rather than complaining about it and demanding other people ignore it.  Could be a worthwhile progression to get him where you want him to be.  vOv

What I see is that a lot of IC clues - as it has been said since the beginning - obviously point to the cartel affiliation like for example Stillwater history as a cartel corp in the past added to Leo's flirting with a lot of angel corps, yes.

However, I also see a lot of OOC/IC confusion on the behalf of a lot of people.

IC perception is IC reality. OOC perception is OOC reality, which is quite different, but OOC perception (sigs, etc) is not IC reality imo.

[Saede Riordan]

Again, if it was just one thing, or just one little hint thrown out there, that'd be one thing, but we're constantly reminded of angel this, angel that, whenever we examine the character, it is difficult to overcome that bias. Its not just one hint that Leo is an angel, you could probably dismiss one of the points in the way you have, but enough of those little points and all the handwaving in the world just doesn't matter. If it looks like a duck, smells like a duck, acts like a duck, and says its amarrian, that doesn't make it not a duck.

[NISYN Aelisha]

I have been keeping my distance from the Summit and similar 'flash points' recently for reasons much smaller than this somewhat antagonizing back and forth, but here I am to throw my hat into the ring. 

My personal stance on this, considering my IC interaction with Leo has been delivering a few fuel blocks and saying hello 'once' in the Summit pre-'ohgodwhyImmaout' (nothing to do with this snafu), in that I can't say either way on Stillwater simply because I don't even care ICly. 

There is no solution to this, no one is going to be happy, few people will accept compromise and my thoughts are 'why does this even matter'?  If you have some overweening need to 'punish leo for being an Angel' spread that dirt IC, or hire mercs/wardec or do something else that adds some schadenfreude to this whole exchange - atleast some of us get to cackle on the sidelines then.  As for Stillwater thinking I may be advocating them in this case, I consider Stillwater's history to be more than enough to hold them in potential contempt due to prior and possible Angel ties, but this leads to the crux of the issue.

Angel or not, how many of us interact with Leo other than OOC?  In this collossal pond is there no space where we can just throw up our hands and go 'Not in my Name' and just get on with our IC and OOC lives unaffected by extraneous 'annoyances'?  Is it really worth stressing over an irreconcilable difference such as this unless you're going to  put the impression of the other guy's scrote on your toe cap via in game mechanics?

Taking my hat out of the ring, but before I do, remember this - we have big enough problems with keeping this community together - why not work this out in game if at all?

[Casiella]

[mod]The subject of the discussion is not out of bounds in general, but of course posts must remain on-topic and conform to the rest of the rules. Keep it clean, folks. Thanks. [/mod]

[Esna Pitoojee]

Thanks Cass.

Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.

Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.

So - just making sure I'm understanding your argument; correct me if I am wrong - what you are saying is that it is alright for people to assume Stillwater is a Cartel operation, but we are not allowed to produce IC material ("Proof") to back up our accusations?

[Silas Vitalia]

Unfortunately I've found if you want things to be a secret IC, you unfortunately can't tell anyone OOC either. It sucks but that's just the way it is.  Once the genie is out of the bottle it can't go back.

Regardless of who-said-what-when-where and what is admissible in ic/ooc court, and I'm not pointing fingers at anyone or taking any sides in this, Stillwater is in a very shallow closet regarding their affiliation.  Like Ellen Degeneris and Rosie O'donnel shallow closet And as far as Imperials are concerned, suspicion is 99% of guilt anyway. 

I think I get that Leo wants to have fun and work on all of the fun Angel IC information and be able to share that with other people OOC, but its a very very difficult thing to do and not have it bleed over.

Anyway you guys should totally just come out of the closet anyway. Feels good to be open about inner IC stuffs and broaden the RP pool  : )

I had a few months of 'seekrit' sabik stuff going on with all of like, 4 RPers and it got extremely tiresome trying to be Senator Palpatine / Darth Sidious which no one beleived anyway

[Louella Dougans]

This sort of thing is a problem that's come up with other things too.

examples, people that use ooc communications, including these forums, and the OOC channel ingame, to say "look at my RP thing!", without providing any IC method to know those things.

Then getting bent out of shape, screaming "You don't know this!", and complaining endlessly about being "metagamed".

what this does is, turn people off from RP, and makes OOC channel a cesspool of bad rp.

[Merdaneth]

1. If you don't insulate OOC info *and* clearly mark it as OOC, you cannot expect of people to treat it info as inaccesible IC
2. People's minds aren't wired up to compartimentalize information, or to quote the classic 'what has been seen cannot be unseen'. If you do want to post IC stuff OOC, *don't do it with IC secret info*

If you ignore these two guidelines, don't be surprised when the inevitable happens and people respond to your intended OOC info IC.

Leopold is a confirmed crook as far as Merdaneth is concerned, and crooks run with crooks, so he really doesn't care if he's currently with Angels or otherwise.

[Saede Riordan]

This may seem a bit heavyhanded, but honestly, why is this a problem at all?
I know there is enough IC data floating around to more then implicate Stillwater, in the hands of people who have posted in this thread talking about why it shouldn't be a secret. If you have that much of a problem with it. Then take that information and go to press with it. The reason this discussion is occurring at all is because the only information that people aren't holding close to their belts is the stuff of questionable availability.

[Merdaneth]

If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^

Still poor manners.

In Eve RP you assume people are what they say. If my profile lists I have two brothers and a sister, and my parents lived on Sarum Prime, there is no way that such can be proven or disproven. The underlying message of me sharing this info is: 'this is how I imagine my character to be, and I would like you to treat this info as real'

In EVE RP, assumption is, in most case, fact, because there are no real facts.

Posting secret OOC info in your bio or other easily publicly available stuff and than getting pissed off at people treating it as IC info is simply ignorance of how EVE RP tends to works. Since it appears to me that the player behind Leo is fairly intelligent, it seems willful ignorance too.

[Merdaneth]

Accept, assume, yes. As long as it stays in the field of speculations, rumours, etc., you can speculate all you want.
Once people start using OOC info as IC knowledge, or using OOC info as IC 'proof', that's where a line has to be drawn. And this is is the issue at the moment.

The info is now IC, whether you like it or not, because it has been spread in clearly IC channels. You can complain that people used OOC sources to make your secrets public, but that will only help my OOC understanding. Merdaneth heard the allegations. Merdaneth heard them from IC trustworthy people. You haven't made any points IC to defend yourself, so Merdaneth is treating the information as such. Better start a good PR campaign.

[Lyn Farel]

This sort of thing is a problem that's come up with other things too.

examples, people that use ooc communications, including these forums, and the OOC channel ingame, to say "look at my RP thing!", without providing any IC method to know those things.

Then getting bent out of shape, screaming "You don't know this!", and complaining endlessly about being "metagamed".

what this does is, turn people off from RP, and makes OOC channel a cesspool of bad rp.

As Silas said it is always better to keep the secret IC stuff sikrit, but eventually I started to get more lenient on that and gave obvious hints OOC and even evidences, as well as more subtle hints IC on my character affiliation.

Never really had any issue. But that's precisely because IC clues were extremely limited and known to few people. That's precisely because people were OOCly always like "wtf" when learning that Lyn was not the proper liberal loyalist that I started to become more laxist OOCly with these things.

Then it is a question of balance, because if you start to repeat it again and again OOCly with a hammer, people eventually start to confuse it with IC eventually and behave like if they have always known about it.

Anyway here from what I understand IC clues are legion anyway.

If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^

Still poor manners.

In Eve RP you assume people are what they say. If my profile lists I have two brothers and a sister, and my parents lived on Sarum Prime, there is no way that such can be proven or disproven. The underlying message of me sharing this info is: 'this is how I imagine my character to be, and I would like you to treat this info as real'

In EVE RP, assumption is, in most case, fact, because there are no real facts.

Well, no wonder why this is such a problem then. I do not reason that way at all. Realistically, if something is a rumor, it remains a rumor for me, period. If you can't prove your theories about others (and not yourself) with facts, I would have started to put a serious doubt on the legitimacy of your claims.

If we reason like you do, then it is no surprise that if I start to spread the rumor that KotMC are sikrit blood raiders with a vampire fetish everyone believe it like the sheeps they are... ? Everyone it applies for Gutter Press too ? Everyone believes everything they say ? 

Of course here, the matter is something else since there is a lot of IC evidence available, and even if it is not enough to tell "Stillwater IS angel", it is enough to say "Stillwater is obviously angel, everything screams it is !".

Posting secret OOC info in your bio or other easily publicly available stuff and than getting pissed off at people treating it as IC info is simply ignorance of how EVE RP tends to works.

Unfortunately yes.