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[ArtOfLight]

Well, I was going to have HOLR engage against WHIST after declaring them enemies of righteousness for their affiliation with the Angel Cartel, especially since I've obtained substantial IC evidence pertaining to that affiliation. However, since it seems that none of this "evidence" is supposed to exist and any reference to WHIST being part of the Cartel is apparently OOC/IC blurring no matter how it was obtained or what source is used, I suppose I'll just avoid interaction on that front.

However you might want to clean up your DED Public Profile, your corporation titles, your corporate description, your corporate headquarters, quite a few gathered logs of your in-character interactions which suggest to (if not outright demonstrate) this affiliation, your slogan "Angels are never far..." several of your IGS posts which reference the Salvation Angels fondly or supportively...

The list could get longer but the point is that there is substantial reason to suspect WHIST's Angel Cartel association. I'm somewhat saddened to see that this is all apparently unintentional and completely breaking the IC/OOC divide.

[Saede Riordan]

I think this falls into the realm of something I had trouble with, wherein I thought I was leaving an interesting trail of breadcrumbs for players to follow and discover things, when in reality, it was more like a trail of anvils. To the WHIST folks, from your perspective, there might not be that much public evidence, and the evidence left might be supposed to be hard to find, but it isn't. There's definitely such a thing as being too heavy handed with your clues, and I think this is a good example of that.

[Victoria Stecker]

Wait, WTF? Stillwater runs around with a neon sign that says "hey look everyone we're Cartel!" Then when anyone points this out they stick their fingers in their ears and say "lalalalala you can't prove anything!" It's like you want to play pirates, and you want everyone to know that you're pirates, but you never want to face any of the IC consequences for being pirates. What's the fucking point?

[Morwen Lagann]

Stillwater's corporate titles are not public IC info, they're OOC, but are kept outside of (( )) brackets cause that would look retarded. Simple as that.
So please stop treating that info as IC because it's not.

Haha, no.

You're right that putting brackets around the titles would look retarded. It's a small price to pay for insisting on taking what amounts to a retarded position in the eyes of most people, though. All I have to do is click on your name in the Summit, and there it is. If that doesn't count as accessible IC, what's next, your corporation name and ticker?

Stillwater was never in Naraka, nor has ever been blue with it, so I have no idea where are you pulling these from.

As for the OOC/IC divide, this is why we're discussing it here is not?
Simple, it's OOC info, end of discussion. If you want to use OOC info in an IC context, go ahead.

Stillwater wasn't in Naraka, but you were as a member of Ghost Festival. Leo was pretty obviously Cartel during that time period.

As for "never having been blue", Stillwater was not only blue to Naraka (+5) for a while after you left Ghost Festival, it had also been blue to Ghost Festival (and presumably PRELI) long prior to your membership in either organization - in fact, while Ghost Festival was still operating out of Hasateem.

And this IC/OOC divide claim of yours is utter nonsense. People knew IC about Stillwater's Cartel connections and affiliations long before Leo was a member of the corp. They knew about Leo's connections and affiliations long before he was a member of Stillwater.

The key to successfully getting your way when it comes to asking for what amounts to a retcon, is to ask nicely (you haven't, judging by evemails and logs from OOC) for reasonable levels of change (a couple days of private RP is one thing; public RP is another entirely, let alone a couple YEARS instead of days) that don't cause a cascade of crap needing rewriting (again, a couple years of RP in public, not so retconnable).

In short, sleep in the bed you made for yourself. Whining and ranting at people for noticing your shitty housekeeping skills when you invited them into your house isn't going to get you anywhere.

[Lyn Farel]

That sure is a lot of boasting. 

If it was only about corp titles, that's nothing really. If i were Leo I would just answer to people pointing at them and telling "WTF YOU HAVE ANGEL TITLES SO YOU ARE ANGEL !", "Yeah well, I could also put instead 'THE MAKER', and you would believe that I am the Maker ? You gullible fool". That would be pretty cool for a 'vilain' corporation to use such PR tricks. ^^

But seriously, if the lack of "OOC" tags make people so furious, I may be missing something somewhere. In either way though, Leo, I think you should really add OOC tags as much as possible especially in public info ingame and on outgame sources. Makes things a lot easier. And even with those, we still see from time to time dramas with people that have other mindsets and that think that "every piece of info I can get my hands on is now of my knowledge". No need to make it even more complicated without even tags, I think.

Stillwater wasn't in Naraka, but you were as a member of Ghost Festival. Leo was pretty obviously Cartel during that time period.

And ? I don't disagree with the rest, but are people really reading what others post before answering ? :/

So following your reasoning, since Morwen was Guristas in the past, I suppose that your current corp is guristas affiliated as well ? And since Tibs had amarrian ideals before going sansha, that means obviously that TSF have always actually been amarrian illuminati heh ? That seems a bit stretched to me, although not really new in the RP world though.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Both Morwen and Tibs had very public breaking with their previous allegiances.  Leopold went from one known Angel corp to another.  Its reasonable to assume that the overall loyalty didn't change.

[ArtOfLight]

The founder of Stillwater Corp was also an Angel and there isn't any information obtainable anywhere that Stillwater severed ties to the Angels. As I stated originally, there's a lot of reasons to believe Stillwater is tied to the Angels and very few reasons to believe otherwise.

[Morwen Lagann]

are people really reading what others post before answering ? :/

Yes, we are. If you'd bothered to read ahead a couple sentences you'd see that what Saede said isn't relevant to what I said, nor is it really relevant to this particular case.

I didn't say it was just his being in the corp that made him Cartel. It was things he did and said, while a member of Ghost Festival, that made him clearly Cartel, just as it was things that people within Stillwater did and said before Leo was a member, that made Stillwater a Cartel corporation.

Regarding Morwen and Tib, you're making a false analogy. As Tib pointed out, Tib went from a number of above-board industrial corporations to an organization affiliated with Sansha's Nation, and Morwen went from a pirate organization affiliated with the Guristas to a completely above-board and law-abiding corporation dedicated to keeping various parts of space clean of criminal and outlaw presence. Anyone who knew Morwen back then could never call her a Cartel or Guristas loyalist and still manage keep a straight face while doing so; especially not Myrhial or Verone. This is not the case with Leo.

Leo went from one known Cartel corporation to another known Cartel corporation, as a known and admitted Cartel loyalist.


Regarding the lack of OOC "tags"... at this point, it won't do anything. It's an unreasonable request at a date far too late. The information's been out in the wild IC for ages. A couple brackets added now won't change that a bunch of people have known for a long while - all it will change is that new people will just have to find out from the old people, which, let's be perfectly blunt about this: that's no different from how it is already.

[Lyn Farel]

Both Morwen and Tibs had very public breaking with their previous allegiances.  Leopold went from one known Angel corp to another.  Its reasonable to assume that the overall loyalty didn't change.

It is ?

Firstly, why should people be going public about their changes of loyalties ?

Secondly, in a capsuleer world, reasonable ? Well, why not, but that sounds a bit naive.

Well, that's my feeling anyway. My own character changed of (public) allegiance several times and never bothered to make any public announcement about it. That would have been otherwise quite... arrogant, or pompous to say the least.

Some people have of course asked her what was that all about and if that was an allegiance change. She answered that no, it wasn't. A few believed her, a lot of others did not (since it was amarr -> gallente -> amarr and then amarr -> SoCT which was her true allegiance in the first place). Yes, some characters play shady allegiances and double loyalties, like I did, and like Leo does. The problem with Leo is probably what we are discussing here, however. A certain blur between OOC tags and what is IC knowledge.

The founder of Stillwater Corp was also an Angel and there isn't any information obtainable anywhere that Stillwater severed ties to the Angels. As I stated originally, there's a lot of reasons to believe Stillwater is tied to the Angels and very few reasons to believe otherwise.

That's what I stated too above. Too many obvious clues IC to miss the fact.

[Lyn Farel]

Yes, we are. If you'd bothered to read ahead a couple sentences you'd see that what Saede said isn't relevant to what I said, nor is it really relevant to this particular case.

I didn't say it was just him being in the corp that made him Cartel. It was things he did and said, while a member of Ghost Festival, that made him clearly Cartel, just as it was things that people within Stillwater did and said before Leo was a member, that made Stillwater a Cartel corporation.

Again, you did not read what I wrote then. I do not see how something (cartel affiliated) that a character said in his previous corporation systematically means that he is Cartel affiliated in his new corporation, and I do not see how it also makes by fact the new corporation an angel corporation.

What it means, however, is that people will be suspicious. "Is your new corporation angel affiliated ?" might well be what some will be asking. How he answered to that ICly afterwise, I do not know, though. What I know however is that too IC many clues, as said above by many others, leaded to believe it was the case.

Regarding Morwen and Tib, you're making a false analogy. As Tib pointed out, Tib went from a number of above-board industrial corporations to an organization affiliated with Sansha's Nation, and Morwen went from a pirate organization affiliated with the Guristas to a completely above-board and law-abiding corporation dedicated to keeping various parts of space clean of criminal and outlaw presence. Anyone who knew Morwen back then could never call her a Cartel or Guristas loyalist and still manage keep a straight face while doing so; especially not Myrhial or Verone. This is not the case with Leo.

Leo went from one known Cartel corporation to another known Cartel corporation, as a known and admitted Cartel loyalist.


Regarding the lack of OOC "tags"... at this point, it won't do anything. It's an unreasonable request at a date far too late. The information's been out in the wild IC for ages. A couple brackets added now won't change that a bunch of people have known for a long while - all it will change is that new people will just have to find out from the old people, which, let's be perfectly blunt about this: that's no different from how it is already.

I agree, and never said otherwise. You put words in my mouth.


Edit : oh you know what ? We probably are unable to understand each other and maybe never will. I do not want to argue with you over this, especially since we do not even have a clear disagreement over the matter. >.>

[Morwen Lagann]

I do not see how something (cartel affiliated) that a character said in his previous corporation systematically means that he is Cartel affiliated in his new corporation, and I do not see how it also makes by fact the new corporation an angel corporation.

Stillwater being Cartel has nothing to do with Leo. It was Cartel before Leo had anything to do with it. His own words and actions, and those of others around him, have outed him as being Cartel many times, both before and after he was part of Ghost Festival or Stillwater. I do not know how to make that more clear to you.

I agree, and never said otherwise. You put words in my mouth.

If you agree, why are you posting in a contradictory fashion? Arguing for the sake of arguing?

Edit : oh you know what ? We probably are unable to understand each other and maybe never will. I do not want to argue with you over this, especially since we do not even have a clear disagreement over the matter. >.>

You're the only one who seems to be having trouble understanding anything I'm saying. The problem is pretty clearly on your end, Lyn.

[Leopold Caine]

Please read:

http://arcadianewsnetwork.net/2011/01/08/stillwater-corporation-sever-ties-with-serpentisangel-bloc/

I love the part where everyone is trying to grasp some semantics part to prove their assumption of Stillwater being Angel, with Arcadia News stating they haven't been Angels for a whole year by now. But of course, using OOC intel found in people's bios is more fun than actually checking any actual IC newsfacts and things like that.

Let's put it like this; you might say me saying corp titles are OOC is a dick move. But no, it's not. Leopold has never in public proclaimed himself to be Fua's Domination Malakim. There is no other IC evidence of him being angel besides 'he joined this other corp that is dude, kinda angel'

Before I continue, Stillwater was never +5 with Naraka and even shot down a Naraka BC (I think it was Inara Subaka's Harbinger, but not 100% sure) during our roams.
Stillwater never appriceated lack of Naraka's subterfuge and their ties to the Guristas.
The single Naraka memeber given blue standings  was Myrhial Arkenath, as she needed some isk for a plex and didn't want to get shot by as while doing her exploration in the area.


I think the issue we're having here is a matter of who's making a dick move, as I was accused of making one.
The reality is, you have started your assumption that you are 100% right, picked up some OOC info, made up your own mind that it's all working as intended.

Right.

[Victoria Stecker]

So hang on. The argument is that Stillwater used to be openly cartel, and is now openly not cartel while still secretly being cartel? And we should all believe IC that they aren't cartel anymore because... they said so?

[Ken]

I don't really know or care too much about this specific case, but it seems to me that using the Angel Cartel logo in your forum sig leaves little to the imagination.  Seems to me if you want to be secretly :something:, you should go about it in a secretive way.  If it looks like a duck, talks like a duck, and acts like a duck...  vOv

[Esna Pitoojee]

Indeed.

The issue here is not any one piece of evidence weighed against your word (for example, if Stillwater being HQ'ed at a Cartel station were the only hint, then the claim that it is for a tax haven would be more understandable; if it were merely that Stillwater had Angel ties in the past, but nothing notable now, a change of direction might be more believable).

The issue is the confluence of evidence that is available entirely IC that comes together to paint a very distinct picture: Stillwater is a well-known Cartel-allied corporation and was before you took over; before being CEO of which you left another Cartel-allied corporation. Once you took over, you continued to deck yourself out in ship names, corp titles, and the insignia of the Cartel while basing out of a Cartel station.

Even putting aside the various statements of characters who have known Stillwater confirming its affiliations, this is a damning lineup.

Weighed against this, we've got just Leopold's IC word, and a single article on a news network edited by a Serpentis affiliate - both of whom represent interests who have very understandable IC reasoning to want to keep Stillwater's record clean regardless of reality.


Given this situation, it is quite logical to assume that people may accept Stillwater's involvement and allegiance to the Angel Cartel.