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[Seriphyn]

I'm going to bring up something that seems to be a topic of RP constantly, and ask on public terms. There seems to be a lot of confusion about Stillwater's allegiances, and while I think I can understand the approach/logic you're going for here, I don't think others can, nor do I feel it to be a sustainable approach.

The idea is that Stillwater is secretly Angel Cartel, but publicly legit, correct? Nonetheless, there is publicly available OOC information about the Angel Cartel ties here and in-game, with no effort made to hide it. IC, this is denied, and there appears to be multiple player conflicts on the matter, with one side accusing the other of breaking the IC/OOC barrier.

The problem is, is that when the "secret" details are so publicly available (even if marked OOC), how can it be expected that using details such as corporation descriptions and titles is breaking the line? There are many IC excuses for this, such as GalNet searches, rumours, reports, and so forth. For example, when a completely newb RPer who has no idea what the barriers and boundaries are (after all, there is no written rules about RP) looks into Stillwater's IC corporate description, they go "Oh, they're an Angel corporation". When asked IC, they are told otherwise, and this would just confuse them as inconsistent, as it has done with many people already.

To use an analogy, it is like organizing a party game, where everyone already knows the answers and how to get the goal, but the judge is expecting everyone to forget about the solutions for the sake of the game. How can one ensure that nobody cheats, the same way one can't guarantee or hold someone to account for "breaking the game" when the answer is so clear?

In short, I don't think one can expect everyone to ignore the OOC details, nor can anyone be held to account for using the publicly available detail IC when there is no consensus or any written rules on what the IC/OOC divisions are. If it helps, I have previously supported the approach, what with the whole "The capsuleers may know us to be Angels, but the baseliners certainly don't". I think you're better off removing overt Angel Cartel references and keeping it internal. It just appears very confusing.

[Lyn Farel]

It is a risk to be taken (or not), I believe. As long as Stillwater are fine with it... It is like personnal blogs and the likes. A lot of people say that it is OOC knowledge only. It is a risk they take, but as long as they are fine with it...

However, the angel affiliation was present on the corp info (IC) when I was still playing. For me, it was IC knowledge.

[Seriphyn]

Well, I guess I'm sort of cynically assuming Stillwater are taking OOC issue with it all despite IC...so I suppose you're right Lyn if Stillwater are cool with it.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

It's the fact that they have information in their public Bio, and they have corp titles that scream "Angel corporation".

[Leopold Caine]

There are many IC excuses for this, such as GalNet searches, rumours, reports, and so forth. For example, when a completely newb RPer who has no idea what the barriers and boundaries are (after all, there is no written rules about RP) looks into Stillwater's IC corporate description, they go "Oh, they're an Angel corporation".

They can suspect what they want? If someone is willing to accept any hints and accusations they are given without analyzing them themselves, that gives you more info on themselves than the supposed problem.

It's the fact that they have information in their public Bio, and they have corp titles that scream "Angel corporation".

Information that insinuates certain data, but doesn't prove anything; on the contrary. Most public data shows that MIO and FIO and institutions like that have doubts regarding Stillwater, but can't prove anything. Because they really can't. I'll let Lyn answer that one really.

It is a risk to be taken (or not), I believe. As long as Stillwater are fine with it... It is like personnal blogs and the likes. A lot of people say that it is OOC knowledge only. It is a risk they take, but as long as they are fine with it...

Stillwater's corporate titles are not public IC info, they're OOC, but are kept outside of (( )) brackets cause that would look retarded. Simple as that.
So please stop treating that info as IC because it's not.

[Lyn Farel]

The only thing however that made Lyn believe ICly that Stillwater were Cartel affiliated has always been their corp description (is it still the case ?). Anyone can add angel like corp titles and call himself an angel saint, nephilim, or whatever, but that does not mean that he actually is one. Anyone can call himself emperor of the Amarr Empire as well.

But stating in the corp description that the corp is Angel affiliated is... a little different. Doesn't mean that they are, like any corp claiming they are Ishukone subsidiaries, or working for RSS, or whatever, but that's a pretty solid hint though.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Leo, heres the thing.

People treat those bios as IC info, and it doesnt matter how much you tell them not to, because they do.  And once someone's character knows something, you can't then say "I want you to make your character forget the thing they know and have brought up numerous times, IC", because you do not have the power to tell someone to retcon what their character has and has not done in a public setting.

If nothing else, your corporation has been in Naraka.  It's an Angel Cartel corporation.  On top of that its Bio (which is knowable with two clicks from the neocomm interface itself, having NOTHING to with the In Game Browser even which is where things get tricky) states it is an Angel Cartel corporation, and it's corporate titles (which most people consider to be IC info, I know Tib's had people bring up the 'Harvester' thing IC, and I had no complaints) are all obvious Angel Titles.

Considering this, people (fairly) have their characters know Stillwater is an Angel corporation, and it actually comes across as a fairly dick move to then go to those people and say "Ignore everything you've ever done as an interaction with Stillwater, you fucks".

[Saede Riordan]

The other thing, which I said on TS yesterday, is that just because for you, Titles are considered OOC, doesn't mean they are for other people. I treat titles as IC and bios as well, and I know a lot of other people do too. You can draw the OOC/IC divide wherever you want, but you cannot expect everyone else to draw it in the same place as you, or respect the place you have drawn it, and that's simply the unfortunate truth about an RP medium like eve. Its better to air on the side of caution and just not have it visible OOC at all in my mind. If you want something to be a secret, it should be a secret across the board.

[Desiderya]

I tend to treat titles IC as well, although I can see the argument for treating it as OOC knowledge. In your case a simple ooc disclaimer in the corp desc should be enough?
However what is valid is the Naraka past - this is a legit way to think about these accusations allegiances. It's no proof, though.

[Leopold Caine]

Stillwater was never in Naraka, nor has ever been blue with it, so I have no idea where are you pulling these from.

As for the OOC/IC divide, this is why we're discussing it here is not?
Simple, it's OOC info, end of discussion. If you want to use OOC info in an IC context, go ahead.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Sorry about that, you were, when you were in Ghost Festival.  It's not OOC info, it's accessable using tools widely considered to be IC and our characters have commented on it IC.

[Leopold Caine]

And what does Ghost Festival have to do with Stillwater? >_>

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

You were in it?

[Saede Riordan]

You were in it?

And Kybernetes was in Electus Matari, it doesn't mean he's 'secretly minmatar'

Capsuleers change loyalties all the time, if you're going to call that evidence Tibs, I'd call it weak evidence at best.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

We still consider corporate titles IC, along with any public information not clearly labeled as OOC.  I am also, frankly, not going to retcon my character because someone asks me to, especially when they do it in an overly condescending way that presumes that they have any right whatsoever to order me around (OOC).

Feel free to use TS-F's public info, if you like, in return?  We've always been careful to treat anything someone could see as completely IC -just to avoid situations like this-.