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Author Topic: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion  (Read 15109 times)

Merdaneth

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #90 on: 18 Sep 2012, 13:58 »

PVP kills are completely IC, it's just up to us how to explain or interpret them.

It's one of the very, very few RP things that are indisputable. You exploded, I did not, etc.

They are very disputable. And before they whole (OOC security) of the API thing, they were disputed, false kills were posted etc.
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Silas Vitalia

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #91 on: 18 Sep 2012, 14:01 »

kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.

Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #92 on: 18 Sep 2012, 14:07 »

kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.

Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?

Heh, I posted fake killmails occasionally back before everything was API backed. It was a great tool to manipulate and control corporate warfare.
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Merdaneth

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #93 on: 18 Sep 2012, 14:19 »

kills, not killboards, but you get my drift.

Posting fake kills to killboards was a big no no, I don't recall this being an issue with RP conflicts?

Heh, I posted fake killmails occasionally back before everything was API backed. It was a great tool to manipulate and control corporate warfare.

There were some 'friendly fire' PIE mails that were never posted to the KB too, before the API. I'm sure those kills would be hotly denied even though they happened. In fact, because there was the API they only happened to the witnessing parties and have not spread beyond that IC as far as I know.

Look at real wars. Kills are still hotly disputed despite modern intelligence tools precisely because they are good propaganda tools. The API has killed that.

If I want to hide a kill from my superiors nowadays, can I? Can I say: hey, those KB's are OOC stuff, I should be able to hide something from the directors, right? Kills may be IC, I can see an argument could be made that KB records aren't IC.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #94 on: 18 Sep 2012, 19:29 »

This might be another immersive roleplayer thing, but killboards are IC. There are few things in EVE that are more certain than an API-verified record of who lost what to whom. They're among the tools we use to work out how active people are currently, where they're active, and what sorts of targets they prefer, which all in turn goes to affect diplomacy and decisions.

Incidentally, how do you RP API-verified. Because I believe the OOC security gives the API its IC reliability. I wouldn't trust an organization like Concord too accurately record data (even if I would understand IC how they would be able to do it, which I don't), would you?

The CONCORD that controls the comms system, pays bounties, and automatically manages sec status and standings? (And is occasionally quite silly in novels?) Yeah, actually, I trust "enough" that it records things accurately. There might be the occasional bugs and glitches as there are in any large software system, but CONCORD's records seem on the whole to be good.
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Matariki Rain

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #95 on: 18 Sep 2012, 19:32 »

I did actually give our more-active pilots a choice about whether to go with the automatic CONCORD API pull. They embraced it. There have been occasions when I've wondered if a couple of them have rued that.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #96 on: 21 Feb 2013, 18:57 »

[ 2013.02.21 18:20:25 ] Leopold Caine > "I am the Domination Malakim of Fua, and you and your henchmen can go **** themselves."

Is this the big reveal? Can we use this?

BloodBird

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #97 on: 21 Feb 2013, 19:54 »

[ 2013.02.21 18:20:25 ] Leopold Caine > "I am the Domination Malakim of Fua, and you and your henchmen can go **** themselves."

Is this the big reveal? Can we use this?

It's not a question to him if you can use it or not. If he pretty much admitted it IC it's fair game. Using it or not is now up to you and everyone else to figure out.
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Sepherim

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #98 on: 21 Feb 2013, 21:10 »

Actually, it was posted on the IGS, so it can be used as it was posted ICly.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #99 on: 22 Feb 2013, 03:59 »

It could also be a way to frame him with made up records.
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Lasairiona

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #100 on: 22 Feb 2013, 05:27 »

Having actually been there for the conversation, it's not made up. He did say it.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #101 on: 22 Feb 2013, 06:21 »

I was speaking from a purely IC perspective.
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Morwen Lagann

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #102 on: 22 Feb 2013, 06:42 »

Actually, it was posted on the IGS, so it can be used as it was posted ICly.

This. The IGS is an explicitly in-character environment, and while CCP is a little wibbly at times on stuff like killmails, chatlogs and evemails being posted there, it was still posted there, which makes it available IC to anyone who reads the IGS.

That doesn't even go into Chribba's lovely forum archiver, which includes original pre-edit versions of posts and things that the CRC supposedly didn't like.
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Sepherim

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #103 on: 22 Feb 2013, 09:08 »

Yeah, surely it could be a forged registry, but it'd be ICly forged so it would still be usable in-game, even if someone tried to prove it wrong.
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Lucius_Vindictus

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Re: Angel Cartel and Stillwater affiliation discussion
« Reply #104 on: 24 Feb 2013, 14:30 »

Fact#1: Secrets are fun!
Fact#2: Secrets are difficult to keep hidden!

I have had an interesting RP history with you, Leo. So what I say is meant as positive advice:

I can understand the appeal in the concept of Stillwater. Having an apparently legitimate business that pays it's taxes, offers respect to the clergy, attends charity event to keep a friendly face to the public, plans business meetings with your peers; both friends and competitors...
All the while there is a shadow side to it. Dark deals are made hidden from the public eye, and your thugs make nasty things happen that make your operation that much smoother. When your competitor meets his brutal end you sob in front of the cameras and offer your condoleances to his family right before you devour what remains of his disintegrating business empire.

Sounds like a ton of fun!

But... just as in IRL, a secret only survives if you hide it very carefully. If you start keeping a secret you must be prepared that it might come to the light eventually. When that time comes you must either have a plan for  damage control, or just go with it and admit your true loyalties.

Even without looking at public profiles and forum sigs;
In-character by now many players have seen Leopold say things, do things, act in certain ways that incriminate him. These could be bystanders, participants, victims, former employees... anyone! After this happens the secret will no longer be ironclad and people will start whispering. Enough whispers will create a rumor. Given enough time and no satisfactory counter, the rumor will be accepted as "truth". This has now gone on for so long that not a lot of people, or at least that I interact with RP-wise, have any doubt left that Leo and Stillwater are Cartel affiliated.

Whatever damage was done by IC interactions cannot be reversed (and they shouldn't). However, if you insist on maintaining the legitimate businessman routine I would:

1. Change your public profile, and that of the corp to make it look completely legit. I agree that putting things between brackets looks stupid. Sadly most people (including me) disagree that the public profiles are OOC information, and that isn't going to change any time soon. That doesn't mean that you can't tell your story at all. Instead I would put a link at the bottom of the profiles that directs to a wiki-article on the Evelopedia where you explain about the Angel Cartel Affiliation. That way only those with the required attention span to appreciate  intrigue will read about it, and the rest is none the wiser.
2. Be more discreet in player interactions and avoid making Leopold getting his own hands dirty as often. Being a crimelord involves using mediators and henchmen outside your corporation so that they can take the blame "they were mercenaries acting against their contract".. etc.

I hope that this made sense  :P
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