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[Matariki Rain]

Another quote from the same source:

The existence of one human race on another planet spurred Amarr innovation and exploration. As they spread through the cluster, they discovered several more pockets of humanity. In general, these peoples were small in number, sometimes encompassing little more than a few scattered tribes struggling to survive. The Amarr enslaved the majority, and destroyed those they considered unworthy.[4] Only the largest and most important were recorded in detail; most faded into obscurity of the generic slave stock.

This is one reason I have some sympathy for Ken's idea that the current Minmatar tribes are after-the-fact constructs, maybe using old names and stereotypes but very much recreated out of what slavery left.

[Gottii]

Sure, there is conception now, but we're likely dealing with traditions and taboos laid down before such things we're common.  Theocratic regimes arent big on admitting rules change due to time and technology.

Also, forced rape does many things, such as potentially damage a womans ability to reproduce through physical trauma and STDs.  Ruin one fertile young girl's uterus and you've taken money out of a Holder's pocket, quite a lot actually.   Im sure there are "pleasure brigades" for overseers and such, but I doubt they're allowed free reign of the slave stock. (though rape as a threat and a punishment is possible, and likely a compelling one)

The fact that the Amarrian place such a high import on their own genetic identity ("we're the chosen people of God!"), and there is a recognizable Amarrian bloodline at all after centuries of conquest and enslavement means that breeding and mixing of blood with "lesser races" seems to be a very uncommon event.  Otherwise they wouldnt even be recognizable as a distinct ethnicity after centuries of taking concubines and such (in contrast to the Romans, who fucked anything, and didnt really exist as a recognizable, distinct ethnicity after a few centuries of Mediterranean hegemony and empire )

And if the Amarr dont do it, I doubt they let the races they're trying to teach to be more like them do it.


EDIT:  but, the footnote you cited does challenge this idea a bit.  That said, my first point stands.
Further edit:  Im defining rape as forced sex, a violent act.  In practical terms, im defining it the way most IC backgrounds define it really, which is what Esna mentioned.

[Matariki Rain]

But I could also envision a world in which the Amarrian ideal is that slaves are to be treated as humans needing to purge their sins through work and receive enlightenment, and that they can't do that if Holders et al. abuse them in ways that would incur God's disapproval.

Why would the Amarrian god disapprove? We get quite mixed ideas about the Amarrian god from the snippets of Scripture we have, but one thing I think is pretty clear is that this isn't a nice, Gallente-friendly type of god. I think that by the time the idea of Reclaiming was developed and widespread it included the idea that it might take generations, right? I see no reason why the treatment of those generations would cause their god any particular concern, while the use of their labour to support Amarrian society is clearly a good.

In fact, we might be better off discarding the entire notion of rape as applied under legal frameworks with which we're familiar, and instead assuming that it means something that we would possibly recognize as "rape". Think, for example, of the ancient Hebrew laws about slavery and such, where slaves were more than simple property but certainly not equal subjects (the concept of "citizenry" didn't apply).

I'm curious about what you're thinking of, since that was one of the examples I had in mind when I referred to rape as a property crime against the owner. Do you have a different slant on that?

[Gottii]

Why would the Amarrian god disapprove? We get quite mixed ideas about the Amarrian god from the snippets of Scripture we have, but one thing I think is pretty clear is that this isn't a nice, Gallente-friendly type of god. I think that by the time the idea of Reclaiming was developed and widespread it included the idea that it might take generations, right? I see no reason why the treatment of those generations would cause their god any particular concern, while the use of their labour to support Amarrian society is clearly a good.

I think they would care because Amarrian religion and society doesnt view everyone as genetically inferior, simply mislead and needing to be more like the Chosen people of God.  They very fact that a Khanid bloodline is considered a candidate to produce the Emperor means that Amarrians are aware that todays slave might be tomorrows Emperor, and likely Amarrian religion and doctrine reflects that.

[Matariki Rain]

I can't find an original of this--I have it here from its use in an old IGS thread--but I believe it was the write up for breeder colonies in old missions:

This breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr. Once they reach puberty, the boys are sent away to take their place amongst the lower classes in Amarr society.

The girls, on the other hand, are left behind. Their place is here, stretched out on cold metal tables, silent and tense. The facility wears out its brood, but that's all right; more are created all the time.

And every now and then, a caravan will arrive, carrying men with cold eyes and clammy hands, ready and willing to help with the production.

[Gottii]

I can't find an original of this--I have it hear from its use in an old IGS thread--but I believe it was the write up for breeder colonies in old missions:

This breeding facility produces Minmatar children ready to assume their place as servants to the Amarr. Once they reach puberty, the boys are sent away to take their place amongst the lower classes in Amarr society.

The girls, on the other hand, are left behind. Their place is here, stretched out on cold metal tables, silent and tense. The facility wears out its brood, but that's all right; more are created all the time.

And every now and then, a caravan will arrive, carrying men with cold eyes and clammy hands, ready and willing to help with the production.

Couldnt find were the quote was from?  But its late and my eyes are getting blurry.

Also, man I miss the old school Amarrian RPers

[Matariki Rain]

I think they would care because Amarrian religion and society doesnt view everyone as genetically inferior, simply mislead and needing to be more like the Chosen people of God.  They very fact that a Khanid bloodline is considered a candidate to produce the Emperor means that Amarrians are aware that todays slave might be tomorrows Emperor, and likely Amarrian religion and doctrine reflects that.

Which Khanid bloodline? King Khanid is True Amarrian.

I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?

True Amarrians are god's chosen people. Through certain accidents of history and politics it might happen that someone who's not fully True Amarrian comes to the Imperial throne: at that point I imagine there will be either a focus on their Amarr heritage or a certain amount of pragmatic "La la la, not listening" for as long as it takes for things to resume their usual programming.

(By the way, thanks for the discussion: this is fun. )

[Matariki Rain]

Also s/hear/here above.

[Matariki Rain]

It's used in post 19 of the linked thread. In theory the link goes to the post, but whether that actually worked on the old forum was always a bit of a lucky dip.

[Matariki Rain]

Also, man I miss the old school Amarrian RPers

Yeah, and I find it a little odd defending their chosen culture for them.

Also, what happened to my default smily? It looks like an icon has been replaced somewhere, and it's now being used for both the smily and IP-logged emblem. Which shows me my IP. And which I assume has shown the mods who Muck Raker and various others are.

[Kazuma Ry]

I will be honest, did not read anything in this posting other then the the 1st one. Kazuma is still a Old-School Slave owning Khanid, who feels the best way to save a slave is through enlightenment. Now, I can't really say about the whole reclaiming issue, but I am still for the whole idea that all races should embrace the Amarrian God, either through their own free will, or through subtle but effective enlightenment process.

On a side note, I am actually looking into the idea of getting back into the RP preaching that I did when I was in the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown. Hopefully if / when I get some writings done and posted onto the IGS, I can kick the hornets nest, so to speak.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:

As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.

I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.

I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?

I was under the impression this was only in the most traditionalist portions of the Empire

[Graelyn]

Don't worry.

[Matariki Rain]

Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:

As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.

I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.

Good observation. I want to prod at it though:

-- Military discipline matters in its own right. This could be focused on the discipline of the military, rather than the effects on others.

-- Are enemies--or whoever, since this presumably applies to locals as well--considered people with full rights, or are they prisoners-of-war-in-waiting-for-slavery? If they're full people, rape seems to be considered bad. If they're slaves who haven't been handed out to their new owners yet, there could be an interest in maintaining their health and value.

-- What do you think counts as "mistreatment of enemies"? Enslaving them was okay, with all that went with that, yes?

I can, however, definitely see some Amarrians adopting this sort of code or approach in civilian life.

I think the example you're looking for is Tash-Murkon, where the heir has some Udorian heritage. And as I understand it there's quite some discomfort at the idea that such a person might be put in the position of being the sacred godflesh?

I was under the impression this was only in the most traditionalist portions of the Empire

Let's see:

Though originally distinct from the True Amarr, they are now almost physically and socially identical, and impossible to tell apart. Their status is considered nearly equal to the True Amarr by all but the most conservative Amarr elements.

Can we split this one? I think "nearly equal by all but the most conservative Amarr" means "not quite equal, and the most conservative Amarr don't think they're even that close".

Do you know how Amarrian religion deals with its Chosen People meme? The Chosen are the faithful people "of Amarr", although they're also described as "of Athra". Are non-True-Amarrians able to be considered "of the chosen people"? Does it vary depending on your level of conservatism?

[Rodj Blake]

Quoted from the EVE-Wiki article on Amash-Akura, the founder of the Amarr Empire:

As the ruler of Dam-Torsad, Amash-Akura instituted several reforms. He placed governance of the city in the hands of the church and made worship mandatory, ruled the precepts be laid down in the Scriptures - giving aid to the pious and striking down heretics - and he strictly enforced a code of morals on his soldiers, forbidding them from rape, looting, or mistreatment of enemies.

I'm not claiming that this has any bearing on current Amarrian law, but I think it firmly establishes that in Amarrian culture, rape - even against enemies - is a bad thing.

That's a good find, I can use that.