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[Lillith Blackheart]

Thought experiment:

The best roleplayers in EVE are the average player that would not call themselves a roleplayer. The scammers, the Nullsec Controllers like BoB and the Goons (hell, especially the Goons), -A- and the like.



Discuss.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Thats the garreck theorem, yes, well done.

I personally preferr my RP with a bit more fluff and the odd spice in it though - as long as it doesn't become a drama fest. Rescuing people from the jovian ambassador every second tuesday gets boring so very quickly its not even funny anymore.

_{This jovian ambassador type is quite the pervert, abducting and raping people every second week... thats just sick!}

[Casiella]

Assuming (like I do) that the best RP gets reflected somehow in game actions, then yeah.

I understand that many RPers take a different tack, though.

[Laerise [PIE]]

Assuming (like I do) that the best RP gets reflected somehow in game actions, then yeah.

I understand that many RPers take a different tack, though.

I see we agree on this matter.

RP is nothing without some fireworks to go by it 

[Casiella]

At least, I like my RP and my gameplay to align. I don't mind the occasional IC chat-type RP, and I know lots of awesome people who primarily focus on that. It's just not my bag, that's all.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I am actually speaking more about not just the ingame actions (i.e. pewpewpew), but their activities as well.

Take for example random Mission Runner 8,472. He talks ingame spamming nonsense. He freaks out and rages over salvage ninjas, but everything he is doing is in character (even though unbeknownst to him).

Then take, for a different example, random Self-Professed Roleplayer 1,226. In his corporate channel he is "out of character", in three other channels he is "out of character". In the Summit and in "RP" channels, he is "in character". Some of the actions his characters does are "out of character" (for instance running missions).

Who is the better roleplayer?


On the other topic of backing up RP in game with the pew, and also the pew, and perchance some pew:

I have no qualms with people who don't. However I do have a direct problem with people that make exorbitant claims and then have no way of backing them up. If your bio says you're a cold-blooded killer and an elite soldier and you've been around for exactly 1 day and your military career as a pod pilot is entirely fabricated, then I will immediately think you're an assjockey. If, however, you're an arrogant loud-mouth that talks a big game, but then gets his ass kicked, that can be entirely in character and I have no problem with that. It's when you have to fabricate accomplishment that I think that you are treading into poor storytelling.

Edit: OMFG I will spell exorbitant right I SWEAR TO GOD!

[Ulphus]

I've been in a non-rp 0.0 alliance.

They really aren't roleplaying.

The big one for me; most people have multiple characters, and they co-ordinate and act as one, and are treated as a unitary being by the rest of the alliance as far as security, assets and responsibility.

When someone buys a character and sells an old character, but is still considered to have never left the alliance, that's not RP.

When attack times are chosen because the targets are Russians, and won't be awake at a particular time, that's not RP.

When corp chat is full of talk about little Luke and how he scored 2 goals in his football game on the weekend, and how proud his dad is about it, then thats not RP.

Of course, I look sideways at corps that have OOC corp chat, but that's probably because EM has spoiled me.

[Lillith Blackheart]

TL;DR version: I disagree with this entirely.

I've been in a non-rp 0.0 alliance.

They really aren't roleplaying.

Strongly disagree. By definition of the term they are. They are in game playing a role. They are roleplaying. (This is a key part of what this thought experiment is bringing up, mind)

The big one for me; most people have multiple characters, and they co-ordinate and act as one, and are treated as a unitary being by the rest of the alliance as far as security, assets and responsibility.

Fair, however my girlfriend and I are treated as a unitary being by many of our friends.

When someone buys a character and sells an old character, but is still considered to have never left the alliance, that's not RP.

Why not? Did they stop playing a role?

When attack times are chosen because the targets are Russians, and won't be awake at a particular time, that's not RP.

Nonsense. That is a primary war strategy irl. Attack before dawn. This is one of the main tenets of Sun Tzu. This is entirely RP. You know that your target's defenders will be asleep - therefore that is when you strike. Many mideval wars were conducted prior to dawn for exactly that reason. That is entirely an in character action -- even though they may not be aware of it.

When corp chat is full of talk about little Luke and how he scored 2 goals in his football game on the weekend, and how proud his dad is about it, then thats not RP.

And why is that different from, for instance, Marisse Velahar talking about Arctarus (i bastardized their names, sorry), or a character talking about their kind and how proud they are?

Of course, I look sideways at corps that have OOC corp chat, but that's probably because EM has spoiled me.

I don't mind it, I've been in both types, though I tend to make concessions.

[Ulphus]

Strongly disagree. By definition of the term they are. They are in game playing a role. They are roleplaying. (This is a key part of what this thought experiment is bringing up, mind)

I don't think they're roleplaying any more than someone playing Counterstrike is roleplaying a soldier/terrorist. They're playing it like a strategy/tactics game, not pretending to be another person, and that lack of even attempting that is what for me defines what they do as "not RP".

They are playing themselves playing a game, I do not think they do not have different motivations than the player. they do not do things because "That's what a pilot would do" - they do things because that's what the gamer sitting in their computer room would do.

When someone buys a character and sells an old character, but is still considered to have never left the alliance, that's not RP.

Why not? Did they stop playing a role?

I have to ask at this point; What would count as not RP in Eve for you? If you've expanded the term to encompass anything that people do in Eve, you've sort of removed much of the usefulness of the term from my point of view.

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Roleplaying is love. Therefore!

[Lillith Blackheart]

I don't think they're roleplaying any more than someone playing Counterstrike is roleplaying a soldier/terrorist. They're playing it like a strategy/tactics game, not pretending to be another person, and that lack of even attempting that is what for me defines what they do as "not RP".

They are playing themselves playing a game, I do not think they do not have different motivations than the player. they do not do things because "That's what a pilot would do" - they do things because that's what the gamer sitting in their computer room would do.

Author Insertion Fantasy Persona. Richard Garriot does it all the time, it's still playing a role.

I have to ask at this point; What would count as not RP in Eve for you? If you've expanded the term to encompass anything that people do in Eve, you've sort of removed much of the usefulness of the term from my point of view.

But this is where we start to get into the meat of it. What is Roleplaying?


I was talking with someone (while I didn't play Eve mind) at one point, and I mentioned something in the RP community that was going on derisively, and he said "You know, you could take any BoB pilot out of a hat you want, and I guarantee you he's roleplaying more effectively than most of the roleplayers".

Obviously my initial reflex was, "...what the fuck?" but before I said anything I thought about it for a minute, and he's right.

To wit:

Everyone is roleplaying, but not everyone is a Roleplayer.

The people who are best at roleplaying are generally not Roleplayers.

Discuss.

[Merdaneth]

Everyone is roleplaying, but not everyone is a Roleplayer.

The people who are best at roleplaying are generally not Roleplayers.

Discuss.

If you are able to forget you are playing a role while you are within your role, yes, you can roleplay more effectively.

That is why a BoB pilot can be a better role-player.

Also, because the role that the BoB pilot plays doesn't match the role he should play as determined by the EvE Fiction (that of a New Eden pod pilot, and not that of a Earth gamer in a simulated space enviroment), his improved role-play can often collide with what we think of as RP-ers, those people who try to match their characters perceptions consciously to what they think of the fantasy world would be.

A BoB roleplayer would maintain that there are no actual people dying when he shoots pirate ships in belts where as a 'true' RP-er would. The BoB player would be right, the 'true' RP-er not. The BoB player would play his role better, he would not be making things up that aren't really there. His role as a pilot of a spaceship is there, but not the dying NPCs.

[scagga]

Strongly disagree. By definition of the term they are. They are in game playing a role. They are roleplaying. (This is a key part of what this thought experiment is bringing up, mind)

I find fault with this logic.

In such a discussion, the definition is fluid unless explicitly agreed upon. The whole point of this discussion is to discuss and hopefully arrive at a definition, is it not?

Also, taking the concrete approach that 'roleplaying' must mean 'playing a role' is almost an insult to language and undermines the point of discussion. If it were so simple, the discussion would not be necessary.  

I think we both agree that words adopt the meanings that we attach to them. More and more frequently, the etymology is becoming mere artifact.  It is easy to accept false cognates, much like what happens with dilettantes trying to improve their French. For instance, where someone thinks 'sensible' in English is interchangeable with 'sensible' in French, whereas in truth it means 'sensitive'..

So, to summarise, roleplaying does not necessarily mean playing a role, and stretching the definition to mean whatever we like is fine so long as enough people agrees and start putting it into use  

[Vendrin]

Roleplaying is cybersex. Duh.

I put on my robe and wizard hat.

[Syylara/Yaansu]

You can call just about any straightforward playing of the game roleplaying in a fundamental sense, if you wish.  However, that is almost outright avoiding the point.  Those people who appear in commercials are actors, but I can't say I really relate well with many of the things they are portrayed doing.  The conversations and actions that take place are so heavily dependent on a framework of trying to sell something, that it can't be taken seriously beyond a certain point.  Contrast that with a deeply moving and gritty drama filled with some of the bitter realities of life we don't trot out in everyday conversation, but certainly resonates in us.

I tend to view the actions of those who aren't deliberately considering narrative or character motives as entities apart from themselves as more background or setting, not entirely divorced from the RP from my perspective, but not primary material either.  Its as real as instability in the Middle East and fluctuations in world currency markets and just as distant in comparison to our constant need to secure our own needs and maintain the friendships and associations we have.  Obviously the capsuleer has a bit more socio-economic mobility and potential political influence than most of us, but the orientation of your own personal "inner circle" being more central to you than the rises and falls of what comes to seem after a while like generic entities out on the periphery of your experience.