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[orange]

Is it relevant to the story that is Eve-Online? You better believe it.

That's what annoys me about FW. It feels to me that the only way to be relevant to the story that is Eve-Online is to be able to log on right after DT and orbit buttons in a soul-destroying grind.

I don't think that ability to endure unbelievably boring game-play ought to be the precondition for relevance.

I didn't say that the inverse is true.

FW being relevant to the Eve story does not mean that to be relevant to the Eve story one has to take part in FW.  Even non-space actions can result in recongition from the story.

[Merdaneth]

I didn't say that the inverse is true.

FW being relevant to the Eve story does not mean that to be relevant to the Eve story one has to take part in FW.  Even non-space actions can result in recongition from the story.

Indeed. Requirement of in-space action to be relevant to the story is what I think of as the Jade-fallacy.

Many possibilities to be relevant to the story, even to the FW story, and considering that the FW grind has actually very little noticeable effect in game, I would wager that you can affect the FW story much more by non-grind/non-space actions.

[Rodj Blake]

Cognitive dissonance theory would say that once you did spent blood, sweat and tears in front of your computer, you cannot help but consider your work an RP achievement and very relevant to RP if you are an avid RP-er.

To me FW feels like the RP equivalent of the WWI trench war, both in typology and effect. A lot of fighting for inches back and forth, with the conquest of a few yards having no noticeable impact on your actual day-to-day activities. Generals working hard to keep the troops inspired and morale up while they start to slowly zone out with no hope of any end in sight while the difference between enemies and friends fade.

I just had a flashback to this exchange in Blackadder Goes Forth, in which Captain Darling unveils a map of the territory that has been captured by the British:

Melchett:         Erm, what is the actual scale of this map, Darling?
Darling:          Erm, one-to-one, Sir.
Melchett:         Come again?
Darling:          Er, the map is actually life-size, Sir.  It's superbly detailed.  Look, look, there's a little worm.
Melchett:         Oh, yes.  So the actual amount of land retaken is?
[Darling whips out a tape measure amd measures the table.]
Darling:          Excuse me, Sir.  Seventeen square feet, Sir.

[Ashar Kor-Azor]

God-dammit.

I just want to make something clear. Now, the following is formatted for the sake of visibility and not malice. I'm not yelling at you, here. I'm catching your eye, because evidently I have come to feel I can't catch your ear.

So.

INSOFAR AS THE FRAMER OF THE ARGUMENT THE OP IS RAILING AGAINST IS CONCERNED, THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE VOLUME OF ROLEPLAY SOMETHING, SAY FACTION WARFARE FOR INSTANCE, CAN PRODUCE ON THE ONE HAND, AND THE UTILITY OF THE KINDS OF ROLEPLAY IT PRODUCES FOR CREATING NOVELTY AND ENGENDERING INNOVATION IN EVE'S ROLEPLAY COMMUNITY ON THE OTHER, ESPECIALLY IN TERMS OF THE AVENUES OF ROLEPLAY AVAILABLE TO THE PEOPLE THAT DO NOT PARTICIPATE IN THAT PARTICULAR SET OF MECHANICS.

I feel a little better about the exposure that statement's gotten now.

Something in regular font and with thoughtful input tomorrow maybe. Too much to do tonight.

If you can speak to that directly, though, do me a favor for the sake of MY comprehension:



Thanks.

[Rodj Blake]

The factions are at war with each other.  Sure, it's a limited war, but it's a war nonetheless.

Now, whilst signing up for the militia isn't the only the only way to get involved, I happen to think that whenever someone pops up claiming to be loyal to faction X, then people are entitled to ask the question "What have you done to support the war effort?"

[Merdaneth]

Melchett:         Erm, what is the actual scale of this map, Darling?
Darling:          Erm, one-to-one, Sir.
Melchett:         Come again?
Darling:          Er, the map is actually life-size, Sir.  It's superbly detailed.  Look, look, there's a little worm.
Melchett:         Oh, yes.  So the actual amount of land retaken is?
[Darling whips out a tape measure amd measures the table.]
Darling:          Excuse me, Sir.  Seventeen square feet, Sir.

Melchett: "Please everybody, now where's my map? ... God it's a barren, featureless desert out there, isn't it?"
Darling: "Other side sir."

[Merdaneth]

God-dammit.

I just want to make something clear.

Use simple short sentences. Use examples.

Honestly, you've not only bolded the fonted, you've crammed several subsentences into one sentence, including a kind of I-think-that-you-think construct.

It is certainly not making anything clear for me.

[Myyona]

I read Ashar's "ramblings"  as; just because you can tie RP with FW it doe not mean that participation in FW automatically increase your ability to RP. FW is game mechanics; just because you plex the most every week it does not automatically follow that you now are a strong RP persona that are providing greatly to the RP community. Further, having more people participating in FW does not mean that there are more people participating or even having an interest in the RP side of EVE.

Maybe this should be obvious, but I think we have all seen cases when people, even CCP, believes it is not.

[Casiella]

If Ashar could perhaps clarify his statements, the large-type all-bold text wouldn't be necessary. Like Merdaneth, I'm not quite sure of what he said. Breaking it into sentences would help, sure.

In other words, take a breath, bro.

[orange]

just because you can tie RP with FW it doe not mean that participation in FW automatically increase your ability to RP.

No, but it is a means to RP.  One can RP in and around the story surrounding FW.

FW is game mechanics; just because you plex the most every week it does not automatically follow that you now are a strong RP persona that are providing greatly to the RP community.

Certainly, but that gets into "what makes a strong RP persona?"  What it does mean however is that you are dedicating your play time to a certain aspect of the game and the game's story - FW.  Various entities/players will place different levels of importance on different parts of the game.

Further, having more people participating in FW does not mean that there are more people participating or even having an interest in the RP side of EVE.

It does however mean that more people are participating in influencing the story between the empires.  They may not realize it and may have near 0 interest in immersion aspects, but they are participating in the story, even if it is for the "free wardec."

The factions are at war with each other.  Sure, it's a limited war, but it's a war nonetheless.

Now, whilst signing up for the militia isn't the only the only way to get involved, I happen to think that whenever someone pops up claiming to be loyal to faction X, then people are entitled to ask the question "What have you done to support the war effort?"

Rodj's question is a valid one - "What have you done to support the war effort?"

This question is especially potent leveled against vocal wordsmith loyalist.  Some non-combat corporations likely have honest answers like "we supply the forward operating bases with ships, modules, and weapons."

As an example, Forgetech can point to Intaki and say they defended Ishukone's holdings in Placid.

[Lillith Blackheart]

Some non-combat corporations likely have honest answers like "we supply the forward operating bases with ships, modules, and weapons."

Money and guns are often more important support than the actual fighting - given that the pilots don't die.

[Merdaneth]

Some non-combat corporations likely have honest answers like "we supply the forward operating bases with ships, modules, and weapons."

Money and guns are often more important support than the actual fighting - given that the pilots don't die.

Lol 

Words and debates are more convincing - given that the pilot's don't die and guns are cheap. If you have enemies that never die, you'll better start converting them sooner than later.

[Grr]

The door swings both ways of course as there are a number of loyalists in FW who scoff at CVA or U'Ks achievements in 0.0.  RP is what you make of it and to call anything that happens ingame not relivant to RP is pretty closed minded.

Clearly the story lines were rushed, the game mechanics not ideal and there were so many other issues that caused problems for us all 2 years ago.  Never stopped me from working with militia corps, helping them and acknowledging that this "second front" was important for the Empire all the while fighting in 0.0

My only shame is in many of my alliance mates who do consider FW irrelevant still

[Lillith Blackheart]

Some non-combat corporations likely have honest answers like "we supply the forward operating bases with ships, modules, and weapons."

Money and guns are often more important support than the actual fighting - given that the pilots don't die.

Lol 

Words and debates are more convincing - given that the pilot's don't die and guns are cheap. If you have enemies that never die, you'll better start converting them sooner than later.

I certainly would agree with that if the war stopped if the roleplay community stopped using the system, but as the war will rage on either way, words mean very little.

In that situation, since the pilots don't die, the ships and guns are of the utmost importance. Lives are cheap. Ships are expensive.

[Silver Night]

I think FW is relevant to RP for the people who are involved. Everyone's RP is never going to be relevant to everyone else - one reason why 'relevance' doesn't make a good measuring stick of anything, in my opinion.

I would say that there are other sorts of RP that have a lot less support from game mechanics, however flawed. There is a long tradition in Eve of taking what CCP hands us and making the best of it.