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[Saede Riordan]

I'm with bloodbird on this.

I don't want expensive designer clothes. I just want my character to look the way she looks in my head.

Sure, expensive vanity items for the super rich, fine, I can get on board with that, but when there's literally no options for anything besides the super duper expensive, and generic "hi I'm from The Gap in Space" it gets irritating.

[Jade Constantine]

Let's remember that CSM was elected with what, 8, 95 of playerbase vote? Somenthing like that, so I wouldn't call them even closer to be community leaders despite whatever labels and titles they do have on that regard. It's fashionable, it's a great PR stund by CCP, it works to direct the media around but it's a farse. Although I admit I have a highly biased opinion about CSM because i hate it since its inception, so take my words with a grain of salt.

Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion. (alternatively you can protest of course but I think thats not something on the evidence of this and other threads you appear to support either) - of course this particular CSM was a peculiar thing - there were a few candidates (trebor, seleene, meissa) elected by general support while most were alliance power bloc appointees and the impact of that was for people to consider them less representative because well - they were not really that representative of the general community. But as I said, if you don't vote then you can't really complain that much so the 85-90% silent majority doesn't get to complain when other opinion-makers are considered.

And yes, about community its a delicate term and I particularly dont like it when people generalize it. I see it tossed around very often around here, community this, community that without actually accounting for what they really are. It's a poor term that can be easily misplaced to use as propaganda for opinions that arent really reflecting the reality of a situation. It gives the impression of a much larger consensus about something that isnt really there.

Counts both ways though. In this recent explosion I think you were expressing a minority viewpoint in favour of Microtransactions in all their dodgy glory up to and including Perfect World International style game-breaking effects. Of course you can claim that the "silent majority" was behind your opinion but is that any more accurate or credible than those speaking of community outrage over the leaked memos, "greed is good" and $1000 pants scandal? I don't think so.

End of the day we will agree to differ here. You and Mizhara have a right to consider all the protesters and annoyed players in the scathing terms you have condemned them. Other people have a right to consider this stance reactionary at best.

I'm content that the majority of outrage expressed by the community (who cared to make a public statement) was reasonable and valid. There was cause for this scandal and the fact it was carried by a large array of gaming sites and commentators suggests others hold this opinion. The compromise offered now by CCP is "okay" in my eyes but I remain deeply distrustful of the NeX concept and I think it is gnawing away at the special something that makes Eve a game worth playing.

Sure there were extremists on the protester side, but there were extremists on the anti-protester side and the numbers of monocle-trolling threads got absolutely ridiculous. Some people just like forum drama on both sides. Those people *shrugs* thats the internet really. But more troubling to me going forwards from here is the apparent motivation of pro-NeX commentators...

Because what I perceive in the supporters of NeX is a desire to flaunt their rl wealth over other players in a way that brings no reward to conventional players of the game (via industry and manufacture) and I find it a distasteful assault on the foundations of the game a lot of us have played and enjoyed for a long time.

I am disappointed that the CSM did not come back with a commitment from CCP to deliver a certain percentage of Incarna content outside of the NeX store.

So despite my general happiness that CCP have answered the entirely valid concerns of the player-base over CQ performance/functionality issues. And despite my feeling that the PTW issue may abate on the vanity-only pledge:

I am left with lingering disquiet over the Nex/Vanity item concept as a whole and as other people in this thread have stated; if the only way to properly customize and personalize our characters in Incarna is going to be to reach for the credit card via NeX and bypass traditional industry/manufacture in the gameworld to do it, then I'm of the feeling that something of the soul of Eve has been lost and the minority in favour of vanity MT's ...

Crowd-sourced survey from EO assembly hall

Will have managed to ruin something rather precious in their need to access their creditcards to showoff in a hitherto purist sandbox subscription universe.

[Jade Constantine]

(well made point)

Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.

But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?

A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?

NeX makes me feel like a cash-cow to be milked not a heroic space-entrepreneur.

Not exactly the right direction is it ?
 

[Revan Neferis]

Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.

Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.

(well made point)

Mizhara's post is the most compelling explanation I've seen yet for the cost of items in the NeX store. Personally, I'd still feel things would be overpriced if they halved the costs, but I'm a poor newbie saving up for my first cruiser. I've been given to understand that they're planning to release more items with a broader price range over time.

But Miz is right: If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy, why shouldn't our trademarked, brand named jackets cost as much as a small city? Would someone like that ever want to be seen wearing something off a rack in Wal-Mart?

Answer is they should! Makes a lot of sense in general and for what we have seen from the launch, that's where the base premisse of NEX is coming from which is cool, perfect valid introduction.
Although, I foresse a lot of diversity too so maybe NEX will range from ultra exclusive brand clothing and other vanity items  to more common stuff accessible to the majority of capsuleers too.
Again, speculations until we see it in practice.

[Jade Constantine]

Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.

Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.

I raised the point to refute your assertion that the low voter turnout rendered the CSM position of "representing the community" null - since if you don't vote you have voluntarily given up your chance to register an opinion. This is not about whether you have chosen to vote or not but about the "silent majority" (who don't vote) and their relevance to the discussion at hand. Your opinion can certainly "stand" as you presented it - whether it "counts" or not will depend on whether people are persuaded on the merits of your logic.

Note ... calling on a murky "silent majority" of op-outs to back one's debating position is less convincing than calling on a vocal minority of active passionate people who are doing their best to "op-in" on current discussions and have voted in player elections. Whatever else I might think of individual CSMs this time around I do feel they accurately reflected community disatisfaction with CCP post Incarna launch in the statement they released.

(Now of course I'm hoping they get back into the battle with round two on the issue of NeX monpoly of Incarna content.)

[Jade Constantine]

Answer is they should! Makes a lot of sense in general and for what we have seen from the launch, that's where the base premisse of NEX is coming from which is cool, perfect valid introduction. Although, I foresse a lot of diversity too so maybe NEX will range from ultra exclusive brand clothing and other vanity items  to more common stuff accessible to the majority of capsuleers too. Again, speculations until we see it in practice.

Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at answering my follow-on question from this quote.

"A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?"

[Revan Neferis]

Just as in the real world if you don't vote then its quite easy to discount your opinion.

Indeed, too bad it isnt my case. I vote and I pay subscription so my opinion counts and stands as presented.

I raised the point to refute your assertion that the low voter turnout rendered the CSM position of "representing the community" null - since if you don't vote you have voluntarily given up your chance to register an opinion. This is not about whether you have chosen to vote or not but about the "silent majority" (who don't vote) and their relevance to the discussion at hand. Your opinion can certainly "stand" as you presented it - whether it "counts" or not will depend on whether people are persuaded on the merits of your logic.

It's not null, numbers aren't alleatory. If you have 40 thousand players playing eve, eve community is made of 40 thousand players. Not a few dozens of them.
Silent majority still plays eve. Still pays subscription and their relevance is taken by ccp very seriously in the cash count, unless you have any doubts about that?
And my opinion stands because different than you i dont feel need to persuade anyone to " my cause ". There is no such interest here I know where I stand thats why it's my opinion. It will stand and it will count as much as any other rabble rabble here and be sure it has the same weight value as any of ours 20 dollars paying credits to ccp.
NEX to be is a great thing. It adds another layer to the game, it is a good business proposal to the company and it's not obligatory to any one who doesnt wish to interact with it.
I'm very satisfied with CCP proceding with their plans as intended.

[Revan Neferis]

Perhaps you'd like to take a shot at answering my follow-on question from this quote.

"A better question is If we're the wealthiest individual powers in the galaxy why can't we build clothing factories and manufacture space-fabrics and found our own fashion empires in the grand tradition of the sandbox? We can build battleships, dreadnaughts and titans that can level planets. Why exactly can't we build a miniskirt?"

We can play this model of " WHY " all day and end of the day we will have developed a brand new game alltogether. why this , why that, why cant things be like this, why things arent like that? Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.
I also have lots of Whys regarding why things are like X and not like Y as " everyone thinks their way is always the correct way and feel outraged otherwise right? right?"

Best way to solve it is build your own MMORPG according to every detailed specifications. CCP have their own plans lover, love it or hate it. It's how it is.

[Saede Riordan]

I'm with bloodbird on this.

I don't want expensive designer clothes. I just want my character to look the way she looks in my head.

Sure, expensive vanity items for the super rich, fine, I can get on board with that, but when there's literally no options for anything besides the super duper expensive, and generic "hi I'm from The Gap in Space" it gets irritating.

Quotes herself for emphasis. I find it irritating that the only people allowed to express themselves or dress their characters up in any way to be the super duper rich. This strikes me as irritating, immersion breaking, and just plain stupid on CCP's part.

Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.

I personally don't hold that view. Eve is my game, its my money that helps keep it running, I feel like I should have a say in how its developed.

[Jade Constantine]

It's not null, numbers aren't alleatory. If you have 40 thousand players playing eve, eve community is made of 40 thousand players. Not a few dozens of them.  Silent majority still plays eve. Still pays subscription and their relevance is taken by ccp very seriously in the cash count, unless you have any doubts about that?

Silent majority can be counted upon to justify anything. If CCP had announced it was being bought out by Martians interested in harvesting human livers for foodstock the silent majority would not register their opinion. The reality is that some people feel passionately about subjects and speak up. Any kind of change or protest or opposition is always a minority of the civil populace. But yes, I believe it is the dip in subscriptions and (threat of such) that made CCP take notice of this current protest and allay some of the fears of the protesters - in that much I imagine you are now agreeing with me.

NEX to be is a great thing. It adds another layer to the game, it is a good business proposal to the company and it's not obligatory to any one who doesnt wish to interact with it. I'm very satisfied with CCP proceding with their plans as intended.

In your opinion. And you have a right to your opinion. Hence your many and fervant postings to this effect. Just as those of us who believe you are wrong have our right to post our opinions. Such is the nature of debate and public dialogue.

[Jade Constantine]

We can play this model of " WHY " all day and end of the day we will have developed a brand new game alltogether. why this , why that, why cant things be like this, why things arent like that? Because CCP had a different plan and implemented it they way they found better. It's their game, their company, we are buying their services as it is. Nothing else.

Backstage is a forum for the discussion of matters impacting Roleplaying in Eve Online. I consider my question of "why" our superrich and influential capsule pilot demigods are unable to start our own clothing manufacture industries is quite pertinent to this. You cite blind faith in CCP's plan and its a little cute - but fortunately CCP themselves have admitted their capacity to mess up and do things wrongly just yesterday. Its my hope this "plan" will also be revealed as a mistake in the long term.

Best way to solve it is build your own MMORPG according to every detailed specifications.

I imagine if you were to buy a handbag from a clothing store in real life and the carrying strap fell off when you returned home with it you'd not be best amused if when returning to complain the lady in the store suggested your best way to "solve the problem" was to invest in your own company and design a new line of handbags that would be manufactured to your exacting (ie non-falling off straps) specifications.

This is a spurious counter-argument at best.

CCP have messed up many times in the past with bad "plans".

This is what we are discussing now.

And finally.

CCP have their own plans lover, love it or hate it. It's how it is.

I will respond with a quote from a book I believe you should read as a matter of extreme priority.

"I've been a soldier and a slave. I've seen my comrades fall in battle or die more slowly under the lash in Africa. I've held them in my arms at the final moment. These were men who saw life as it is, yet they died despairing. No glory, no brave last words, only their eyes, filled with confusion, questioning "Why?" I don't think they were wondering why they were dying, but why they had ever lived. When life itself seems lunatic, who knows where madness lies? To surrender dreams - -this may be madness; to seek treasure where there is only trash. Too much sanity may be madness! But maddest of all - -to see life as it is and not as it should be." ~Don Quixote



A segment from one of my favourite films that you know well.

[Revan Neferis]

Silent majority can be counted upon to justify anything.

As much as a imaginary " community " I take it?   

But yes, I believe it is the dip in subscriptions and (threat of such) that made CCP take notice of this current protest and allay some of the fears of the protesters - in that much I imagine you are now agreeing with me.

Absolutely not. Come with a spreedsheet with this current month data 2 weeks prior to the forum troll revolution and covering a period till 2 weeks after comparing number of dip in subscriptions versus new subscriptions and NEX profit  and if the value comes to minus I'll gladly agree with you.
I'm an engineer not a poet. I like numbers not revolutions to base my arguments.
Perhaps when we have the numbers we can speak the same language. Till than , you speak of poetry and beautiful pseudo romantic revolutions which can be indeed passionate but not logical in any sense, and definately not useful for company policies.

And stop posting while im writing, ugh. ill answer the rest in another post.

[Revan Neferis]

You cite blind faith in CCP's plan and its a little cute - but fortunately CCP themselves have admitted their capacity to mess up and do things wrongly just yesterday. Its my hope this "plan" will also be revealed as a mistake in the long term.

Blind faith is very different than living reality. I'm very happy with the current reality of the game and i simply choose to not join conspiracy theories of a possible butterfly effect parallel universe future which many are dweeling upon now.
Let's just put it simple, I prefer to enjoy the present as it is than living in a miserable bitter shape about a suspicion paranoid future that ' may be ".
If CCP does anything that displeases me , ill certainly issue my disastifaction as I have done in the past through petitions, private talks and reasonable means.
It's as simple as that really.

I imagine if you were to buy a handbag from a clothing store in real life and the carrying strap fell off when you returned home with it you'd not be best amused if when returning to complain the lady in the store suggested your best way to "solve the problem" was to invest in your own company and design a new line of handbags that would be manufactured to your exacting (ie non-falling off straps) specifications.

Let's see, is the handbag a Louis Vuitton , or a 1 $ take it all handbag?
It matters a lot for a propper answer.
There is also another matter into the place here: My handbag is in perfect shape, thank you.
Now, if yours is broken and you return to the store, I advice you use the proper mediums to register your complaint instead of assalting the store and beating the seller to death hum?
 

[Louella Dougans]

in previous presentations/ fanfests/ devblogs/ etc. CCP have talked about Incarna, and have seemed a bit lost for words to come up with answers to "what is Incarna for ?"

One thing they did mention was the possibility of player businesses, and possible careers. Although they seemed rather half-baked. They mentioned "hairdresser, bartender, tailor" as possible "careers" in Incarna. Yes. Quite. A battleship pilot cuts hairdos on the side. Anyways...

However, with these microtransaction clothing and accessories, it has kind of torpedoed even those half-baked ideas they did come up with. What role is there for a "dressmaker" when the NeX store exists ?

Incarna still seems like having Big Questions as to what it is for.



As for the NeX items being expensive, then, well, it's unfortunate, but it would appear the idea behind it is that the extremely wealthy can and will buy such things, whereas those that do not have that amount to spend will not. The whole purpose of the NeX store is to allow wealthy characters another option to demonstrate their wealth, other than multi-billion isk ships. Conspicuous consumption and all that.

[Revan Neferis]

As for the NeX items being expensive, then, well, it's unfortunate, but it would appear the idea behind it is that the extremely wealthy can and will buy such things, whereas those that do not have that amount to spend will not. The whole purpose of the NeX store is to allow wealthy characters another option to demonstrate their wealth, other than multi-billion isk ships. Conspicuous consumption and all that.

So far it's what it seems yes.