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Author Topic: Infiltration as RP  (Read 26717 times)

Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #30 on: 24 May 2011, 14:22 »

Did your character have a pre-stated reasoning for training Mechanic 3 at 6:05am on June 23rd?
Yes. It was so she can be a better pilot and better serve her corp.

I want evidence!  :lol:
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Bacchanalian

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #31 on: 24 May 2011, 14:27 »

in reality its going to create pain and angst and suffering and they'll want to punch you

Isn't that generally the point?  I don't think we took a shit in Kimotoro's cereal bowl because we thought it'd make them happy, we did it because we wanted to grind their alliance to dust and we did just that.  RP or not, it didn't make anyone on the receiving end of it very happy.

FWIW, I tend to agree with the OP's take on it, though I never expect anyone to be happy with it if/when my character is outed. 

Incidentally Merdaneth, you may commence worship now.  I joined PL with my main, gathered as much intel as I could on their modus operandi which was passed back to Rote Kapelle leadership, and built a relationship with Viper Shizzle that later netted me a fat payday.  :)

and hires him to infiltrate

it is an odd kind of hiring someone, when there are no payments or communications ever made between them.

When the infiltrator character does not receive isk, ships or other material, not even for "expenses", and never sends any communications to the party that receives the information, then... why are they infiltrating ?

How do you know they don't?  Every one of my past infiltration alts were given isk in some way or another.  Moreover, what's to say they aren't clandestine lovers or some such?  I don't think things of that nature need to be "RPed out" anymore than your character's background, family, what color socks they put on in the morning or where they eat their meals every day.  Could it be?  Sure.  Does it need to be?  No.
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scagga

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #32 on: 24 May 2011, 15:12 »

Just like if PIE realized Katashi was my alt and spotted him taking down towers or whatever, then shot him up and issued a statement about Katashi being a paid agent working for Mizhara. Then... well, again pulled out of my ass, Lyn Farrel of KotMC rolls up and goes "Hey, wait a minute. Katashi was not only neutral, he was part of your corporation and could have had a perfectly good reason for being there. Why did you guys shoot and kill an innocent? I demand proof!" and there's fun to be had around that stuff.

If this is ever true, Lyn, we need to talk about how this is 'not Ammatar'... :evil:
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Mizhara

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #33 on: 24 May 2011, 15:12 »

* Mizhara shifty eyes.

... it's all true.
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Kyoko Sakoda

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #34 on: 24 May 2011, 15:18 »

Made a bit of a "who cares" post here but going to retract my comment since I started reading the threads rather than posting.
« Last Edit: 24 May 2011, 15:27 by Kyoko Sakoda »
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scagga

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #35 on: 24 May 2011, 15:24 »

On a more serious note.

I view RP as guided by principles rather than rules. 

Infiltration is a plausible activity, but the flaw here lies with alts.  While it is fine to have alts and go IC with each of them, I think that it is poor form to use more than one character as major players in the same storyline i.e., you gain an unfair amount of control over factors in the story.

So in that sense, let me give an example I am familiar with... no let's just say corporation x and corporation y.  If someone in corporation x wants to infiltrate corporation y, he rolls up a character, bob, with the express raison d'etre of infiltrating corporation y.  Once the role of bob is complete, bob might be reprocessed, or just relegated to OOC activities.   I view this as at variance with good form in RP.

Realistically, there is never the option that bob will become a double-agent or gain sympathy for his target.  Bob is just skin baggaged over a different IC character, who controls all of his decisions to be unwaveringly in his/her interests.  Bob has nothing to gain from this job, he's a true slave.  I view this as at variance with good form in RP.

So in effect, I think that while infiltration is a valid tactic, to do it in a manner that is in keeping with proper respect for the IC/OOC divide, the infiltrator and those requesting the infiltration should NOT be the same people.  You could perhaps 'hire' a character who rps, possibly create a venue for would-be spies and their ears etc etc, and this would leave choice in the hands of the infiltrator as to whether they wanted to do your work for you.  It may even improve the quality of the infiltration. 

« Last Edit: 24 May 2011, 15:27 by scagga »
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Merdaneth

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #36 on: 24 May 2011, 16:08 »

So in effect, I think that while infiltration is a valid tactic, to do it in a manner that is in keeping with proper respect for the IC/OOC divide, the infiltrator and those requesting the infiltration should NOT be the same people.  You could perhaps 'hire' a character who rps, possibly create a venue for would-be spies and their ears etc etc, and this would leave choice in the hands of the infiltrator as to whether they wanted to do your work for you.  It may even improve the quality of the infiltration.

It will likely increases the difficulty and the cost of the infiltration, but it will likely improve the RP quality of the infiltration.
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Julianus Soter

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #37 on: 24 May 2011, 16:17 »

Well said, Farel.

I'm recalling that Moira ooc infiltration on my guys a few years back with some unpleasantness.

As I recall, the infiltration was done entirely in character. Althea Ekran, a very well known alt of mine, pretended to be leaving Moira due to hating Julianus Soter, and was tired of participating in the Federation's wars.

Althea Ekran then joined Vitalia's corporation, Khanid Provincial. Now, At this stage, Althea Ekran was operating as Julianus Soter's operative. The long standing, and long-RP'ed interaction between the two in various public and semi-public settings, was that Althea was Soter's right hand gal, with covert operations as her speciality. The intent was to destroy the Provincial's new Archon, dealing a blow against a Khanid Kingdom loyalist corporation and ally of the Caldari State.

Which part of that is out of character?

Addendum: Better part: Althea Ekran's character history is about how the Khanid Kingdom made an underhanded deal with a Caldari megacorporation, eventually throwing her to the wolves as the bodyguard of a noble family in the Kingdom. Hence, when the ruse was discovered by Vitalia's pilots, and the plot thwarted, she put in her bio "DEATH TO THE KINGDOM".

Well, should we now outlaw that kind of roleplay? Is that what we've come to? What game is it that we're playing, anyway?
« Last Edit: 24 May 2011, 16:24 by Julianus Soter »
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scagga

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #38 on: 24 May 2011, 16:27 »

So in effect, I think that while infiltration is a valid tactic, to do it in a manner that is in keeping with proper respect for the IC/OOC divide, the infiltrator and those requesting the infiltration should NOT be the same people.  You could perhaps 'hire' a character who rps, possibly create a venue for would-be spies and their ears etc etc, and this would leave choice in the hands of the infiltrator as to whether they wanted to do your work for you.  It may even improve the quality of the infiltration.

It will likely increases the difficulty and the cost of the infiltration, but it will likely improve the RP quality of the infiltration.

It will not improve RP.  It will introduce RP into the process of infiltration, for there is no poetry in contemporary methods.
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Ciarente

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #39 on: 24 May 2011, 17:59 »

For me, there is also the issue of the absolutely OOC trust between a player and their alt. If someone from another corp passes me information about, say, and op, and I set up an ambush, it could be good information, or it could be a trap.

If it's my alt in the other corp, I know it's good information. For me, that's a lot less fun.
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Ulphus

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #40 on: 24 May 2011, 18:01 »

If it's my alt in the other corp, I know it's good information. For me, that's a lot less fun.

I dunno, your alts lie to you all the time. Mine just try to make a profit off me.
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Jade Constantine

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #41 on: 24 May 2011, 18:03 »

in reality its going to create pain and angst and suffering and they'll want to punch you

Isn't that generally the point?  I don't think we took a shit in Kimotoro's cereal bowl because we thought it'd make them happy, we did it because we wanted to grind their alliance to dust and we did just that.  RP or not, it didn't make anyone on the receiving end of it very happy.

Well to be fair, the reason I wanted to do it was because I wanted a good healthy high profile war to rebuild the alliance from a summer doldrums in Curse and the abortive insantity of the "Jericho Prime Movement" more than simply crushing Kimotoro. Of course once the fighting started and we had stuff like the Wassenar Manouver and great leader Nikolai Nuvolari doing a Ragnar from the deck of his Apocalypse it did take on a momentum all of its own.

Also (to be frank) I was much more of bastard back then. Working long hours as a city consultant, mixing with nasty people and generally drinking 15 cups of coffee a day. Its been a several years now and I've slowed my lifestyle down considerably and don't work nearly so hard and as a consequence don't feel the need to kick virtual puppies nearly so often.
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Bacchanalian

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #42 on: 24 May 2011, 18:11 »

Realistically, there is never the option that bob will become a double-agent or gain sympathy for his target.  Bob is just skin baggaged over a different IC character, who controls all of his decisions to be unwaveringly in his/her interests.  Bob has nothing to gain from this job, he's a true slave.  I view this as at variance with good form in RP.

Let me counter.  My first infiltration was Xaiah infiltrating Aegis Militia.  Xaiah was originally created as a carebear alt.  She was a Caldari created around the same time Bacch was in Star Fraction shooting the Caldari loyalists.

There was an opportunity to infiltrate Aegis Militia with her, so I did.  I spent nearly 9 months in AM, and while she never had sympathies for their goals (ie, Amarr Victor [insert latin spam here]), she did get to know a lot of the pilots in AM.  Xaiah flew in AT 4 for Aegis Militia (incidentally, about an hour before I flew with Bacch for SF--that was rather hectic) and did her best to perform as well as she could despite her true loyalties, and she did favors for members of the alliance not merely because it suited her purposes, but because she got to know and like many of the pilots.  At the end of the day, however, her beliefs were stronger than any sense of loyalty or duty she felt towards the pilots in AM, and so when the time was right, she acted.

Had she truly been a slave, she would not have flown for AM in the tourney.  It was a last minute favor begged for by some of the leadership because she was the only one online that could fly a particular ship, but she could have easily bowed out and no one would have held it against her since it was sprung on her at the last minute.

In any case, for all the "dat's not doin it right" comments about RP and infiltration, it will continue to happen.  There are ways to prevent it from happening to you, though none are foolproof, but there are ways to protect yourself from serious damage being caused.  You make choices when you run an organization.  How paranoid do you want to be?  How much do you really care about your forums being leaked?  Do you want XYZ group to have intel on your upcoming operations?  Maybe you want to spring a trap and you know you're infiltrated so you broadcast something to the entire alliance with plenty of advance notice to ensure your enemies know what's going to happen where and when, but keep the second part of the plan close to your chest so that when they think they're springing a trap they're simply playing into yours.

To me those are the fun parts of the espionage game.  I don't care what they ate for breakfast, if someone has too much control over the color of their socks or whether their parents were murdered by terrible horrible [insert your choice of pirates, slavers, or other boogeymen here] or not. 

Then again, my view of RP starts when I log into EVE.  I'm not actually a pilot, nor am I a capsuleer, and nor are any of the other players in my alliance.  But when I refer to them I tend to throw around the word "pilot", tend to refer to my ship as "my ship" rather than "my internet spacepixels," and everyone on my TS3 server refers to me as Bacchanalian rather than Rick.
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Gottii

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #43 on: 24 May 2011, 19:08 »

I kinda view arguing that infiltration isn't in RP and shouldn't use it is rather like arguing that ECM isn't real pvp and shouldn't be used in combat.  It's there, it's not going anywhere, and its going to be used regardless of what I or anyone else say might say. 

EVE RP starts getting tiresome for me when we try to divorce it from the actual game, and like it or not infiltration has a long and distinguished history in EVE, even to the point of CCP using it in a marketing piece. 

Moreover, it creates a sense of paranoia and distrust in RP corps, and frankly I find this is a good thing when you're trying to roleplay in a dark and gritty world.  My take on trusting another pilot is a lot like undocking a ship in EVE, to be true to EVE's dark vision, there always has to be the chance of loss.
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Merdaneth

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Re: Infiltration as RP
« Reply #44 on: 25 May 2011, 02:01 »

Had she truly been a slave, she would not have flown for AM in the tourney.  It was a last minute favor begged for by some of the leadership because she was the only one online that could fly a particular ship, but she could have easily bowed out and no one would have held it against her since it was sprung on her at the last minute.

Bacch, the problem with (slave) infiltration alts is that they don't do anything you (as a player) are not behind 100%. You wanted her to fly in AT4 (for whatever reason). She hasn't made any decision you disagreed with and couldn't make any decision you disagreed with. Hence she is just an extension of the same player, posing as an entity independt of you.

Also /me bows to you for doing the other infiltration with your main, although using an indepedent intermediary (especially one you don't/didn't know IRL) would be the pinnacle of RP infiltration for me.
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