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[Mizhara]

So, there's been a few interesting opinions voiced in the I-RED thread, and even utterings of "Passing off infiltration as RP, wut?" and so on.

Isn't it RP? Let me construct a quick scenario here.

Miz wants... PIE dead. Or VI or whoever. Let's use PIE as an example since there's the obvious wardec going on. She wants to hurt them, but lacks intel. So, she contacts Alt #524, Katashi Rotsuda (as an example, but a bad one since everyone knows he's mine) and hires him to infiltrate PIE. Katashi goes through the motions, and after a long while he gets into PIE and starts to build trust and gain access to information which he then leaks to Miz.

From there, there's a plethora of options. Embarrassing information can be published in... well public. Military info can be used in space. Katashi could clean out the corp hangars and gtfo. All kinds of stuff.

... is this not RP?

I don't get that "Oh, it's an alt and thus it's not RP but some kind of affront and sin!" idea.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

I'm not sure anyone would say it's NOT roleplay, but taking personal player information and using it as a tool for character assassination is a very unpleasant blend of the ic/ooc divide. I'm sure you could find a way to justify disrupting voice comms and 'hacking' forums in-character, but I'm guessing some people might not see it that way.

[Ken]

Like most things it can be done IC for IC reasons, not, or some combination thereof.

[Jade Constantine]

Well, as I've mellowed a bit over the years I tend to feel there can be barriers to considering stuff "rp" when it gets too painful and serious business. Trying to nuke somebody's corporation with alt infilitration and such will produce bad feelings and though in a perfect world you might say "hey dude its only RP right - and get a positive response" in reality its going to create pain and angst and suffering and they'll want to punch you not rp with you.

There is also the point that you can use "rp" as a convenient chest-high wall to hide behind and thats quite irritating too:

Remember when you outed SF for shooting Misan's alt during the corp-theft fiasco in Kamela? Problem there was we all knew as players that misan's treacherous director was being aided by his treacherous alt and it was an entirely justified killing by our rules of engagement. But you brought the whole business into an IC arena and claimed we were hypocrits to our rp because we couldn't make believe that misan's alt was not his alt and thus let him steal our tower equipment.

Ducking behind the "its all rp" chest high wall - when we pointed out your own role in the whole farrago which was annoying to our membership. "effectively being told .. SF = bad roleplayers because they can't make believe there was no connection and let themselves be robbed"

Thats a good example of where you can't really stretch the "everything's rp dude" to cover every example of interaction. Sometimes you need to realize that people are not perfect at characterization and ic/ooc divide and knowledge contaminates the roleplay (sometimes quite properly).

Infiltration, betrayal, theft and organization sabotage are big hits to people's ego and enjoyment of the game and in these circumstances its not unusual or strange to see a negative response to the suggestion that it should all just be "rp'ed out."

Thats my opinion anyway.

[Morwen Lagann]

I'd say it depends on how it's done, and what is done with the results afterward, that determine how favorable a view people take on the matter. In this particular case, I think Milo and company probably could've done a better job filtering out all the OOC/RL stuff that wasn't necessary, and have ended up with a more positive reaction from the community as a result.

Also, as a side note, Katashi's a bad example not because it's well-known he's your alt, but because he's not of an Amarrian bloodline. He wouldn't even be able to get into PIE in the first place.

[Verone]

I don't get that "Oh, it's an alt and thus it's not RP but some kind of affront and sin!" idea.

From my point of view it's not the fact that the infiltration occured, it's the nature of the information that was published.

The OOC information should have been filtered out, and a release of the IC information should have been made rather than just dumping everything they had all over the place in a mess.

I have zero issue with the infiltration.

[GoGo Yubari]

I think this debate usually muddles two different discussions together when it comes up. There's the question of what is and isn't RP in regards to infiltration, with the crucial questions hinging on how to handle meta-game information. Then there's question of is infiltration all kinds of wrong or just part of the game. They are distinct issues, but they are usually treated as a single problem.

My personal view of it is that whether it is or isn't RP depends on the execution, really. If it is well enough done, the necessary meta-gamey bits can be incorporated into the RP equation.

I have no solid opinion on whether infiltration is a bad practice in general, though. Obviously, I wouldn't want to suffer from it myself and would be a bit unlikely to do it myself simply because the tediousness of it isn't really to my liking as far as gameplay goes. Yet, I can appreciate a well done heist or spying effort. I guess I recognize it is part of the game and don't feel the need to pass moral judgment.

[Aira Hakaari]

The guy who posted it doesn't seem to be doing any harm from what I see. Also I agree to the OOC, but really that's minor compared to the OP's IC nature. No harm done.

[Saede Riordan]

I think Jade sums up the issues decently, you can try to be as much of a purest as you want, but there are some times that the lines will get smeared, despite your best intentions, and that needs to be accounted for.

[Mizhara]

Just a quick note here, I'm not even touching upon the pure mechanics of infiltration and whether or not it's an acceptable thing to do. My own view on the matter is that fuck yes it's acceptable and part of the game, but that's not what this particular post is about.

Using Jade's scenario as an example, since it actually happened:

Misan used an alt to make off with... what was it, two towers? SF shot up the neutral alt and there was RP around it since it was a neutral hauler. Now, why couldn't all this be an IC infiltration and theft? Misan did what he did, stealing the towers and so on with the use of an alt. SF realized this and shot up the alt and got an IC reaction for shooting neutrals. A perfectly valid IC scenario is to just go "SF identified the neutral as a hostile agent, most likely in Misan Pal'taek's employ, and shot him.". There's questioning on the matter and there's questioning of RoE, and all kinds of fun things going on around it.

Just like if PIE realized Katashi was my alt and spotted him taking down towers or whatever, then shot him up and issued a statement about Katashi being a paid agent working for Mizhara. Then... well, again pulled out of my ass, Lyn Farrel of KotMC rolls up and goes "Hey, wait a minute. Katashi was not only neutral, he was part of your corporation and could have had a perfectly good reason for being there. Why did you guys shoot and kill an innocent? I demand proof!" and there's fun to be had around that stuff.

How is shooting down a tower and stealing shit from corp hangars that much different? Or any of the other nasty, painful and expensive acts of hostility we can do to each other in-space and in-game so much different, just because it's not a direct fight? Or for that matter, dissemination of classified intel and so on?

My point is... it's all still IC. It's all still RP. Hell yes it can be shady, and downright underhanded, but it's still RP and even RP that's perfectly suited for New Eden's insanely dark and twisted universe. I'll go ahead and say that sure, you can go to decent lengths to avoid OoC information being used and so on, but most of said information is In Character simply by dint of affecting other players in Eve.

Secondly, I really don't see why RPers should somehow be immune to what's done to non-RP entities in Eve all the time and for less reason than our IC hostilities and reasons.

[Jade Constantine]

Nobody is saying they are "immune."

Its just pointing out that there are circumstances where saying "its just RP" will meet a less than equitable reaction from the victims of infiltration/theft/sabotage etc.

You can't force somebody not to infiltrate and fuck you up in eve (if they really want too)

But equally you cannot force somebody to roleplay with you over the incident if they feel you have behaved badly.

[Mitara Newelle]

So, she contacts Alt #524, Katashi Rotsuda (as an example, but a bad one since everyone knows he's mine) and hires him to infiltrate PIE. Katashi goes through the motions, and after a long while he gets into PIE and starts to build trust and gain access to information which he then leaks to Miz.

Which is obviously false intel and stuff we didn't want anyway... There's no listening devices or anything in there, Achura...

I'm still giggling over the Caldari walking around PIE headquarters. I know it was just an example, but still hilarious.

[Merdaneth]

My issue with infiltration RP in EVE is that the game is very poor in representing actual infiltration jobs.

1. Infiltrators tend to be more careful in normal cases because they can get killed. In EVE this (dire) consequence is removed.

2. Most cases of infiltration (and not disgruntled people abandoning their former friends) are executed by alts. Alts are immune to defection, one of the greatest danger of long infiltration operations.

3. Because of the stakes involved, and because allmost nobody RPs everything that consistently, infiltration usually involves large OOC elements. This tends to cause a mess because of the OOC/IC crossover with regards to trust and OOC info. Nearly every corp and alliance bases influence of characters on player trust, not on character trust, hence infiltration often amounts to an OOC trust breaking.

[Merdaneth]

Oh, if people perform infiltration jobs without alts (by actually hiring another character) and that character succesfully leaks IC-tagged only, you'll have my worship.

[Mizhara]

I don't think anyone's saying that infiltration can't have some serious trust and feelings involved, and thus breaking of said trust and so on and so forth, but on the other hand I just can't see how it's not RP or poor RP. While of course there'll be negative consequences for everyone around, and there'll be hostilities between the players in question... it's still RP.