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[Ashar Kor-Azor]

Let's try to keep this civil, despite the anchor bias I just injected.

In reference to a certain recent IGS thread related to the KOTMC event and the guests there and whether they should or should not have been allowed:

[13:25:34] [Name removed] > is your goal to have people only interact IC with their own factions?
[13:25:51] [Name removed] > and the only contact with opposing factions is OOC ?
[13:27:37] Seriphyn Inhonores > IC - attempting to socially isolate the Sansha.
[13:28:06] Seriphyn Inhonores > to him, and OOC I would sympathize with this RP'd view, it is intolerable that Sansha loyalists get an easy freeride.

I think it's pretty weak-tea thinking in a community of this size to try to isolate groups, considering the previous results were disastrous - but the history isn't known firsthand by everyone. People will interact with any given group and form their own opinions.

Generally I'd just let the party attempting to slander any given group go on about it, which usually fails rather spectacularly. However, this time it raised - along with my heckles - a question of what people thought of gestures that were made for the sake of social manipulation or exclusion of a potential demographic that showed no signs of becoming less attractive to new players in future.

I will say the following as many times as is necessary: there are plenty of points that can be made about this situation's particulars regarding metagaming; THEY ARE NOT INVITED BY ME AND WILL LIKELY PREMATURELY END THE DISCUSSION. TRY AND USE THIS AS AN EFFECTIVE WARNING AND HEED IT INSTEAD OF FALLING PREY TO MORE ANCHOR BIAS.

[Mizhara]

To me, it's a matter of immersion. My immersion sure as hell fall through the cracks in the fourth wall when convenience and metagaming takes charge and characters change or circumstances change as a result. Sometimes in ways that just don't make sense, all in the name of said convenience.

For the sake of convenience and metagaming you'll see people that should have been pretty much shunned get hugglefucked whenever and wherever they appear with little consequence nor any raised eyebrows. Characters choosing certain loyalties and promoting allegiance and support for outcast factions and views never seem to pay the price for it, do they? No impact on the social scene at all. No "How dare you monsters show your faces here? Get out before you are thrown out!" or anything like that.

This phenomenon (that's been around since the dawn of RP in MMOs and even before) is particularly visible with the Nation loyalists. Supporters of some of the worst atrocities committed in New Eden since the Day of Darkness, the terrorist acts around the cluster and so on... and there's no consequence for said choices. They're welcomed pretty much everywhere and poof goes my immersion.

Does it really make sense that people who are stated enemies of every faction in New Eden (pretty much) and are currently in the process of invading every single bit of territory they can aim their wormholes at can just walk around consequence free? No social impact? At all?

Yeah... convenience...

While quantity of RP is indeed a matter of concern... it starts to lose it's relevance once the large quantities are mostly of poor quality. Defining poor quality will have to be done entirely individually, but to me, changing characters and inventing excuses to include people like Nation loyalists into such events become poor quality in the long run, as it just doesn't make a lick of sense to me that there's no consequence for choices and actions.

Edit (Came after Borza's post so he responded only to what's above this line):

And something occurred to me... This inclusion of such things is quite a bit of hypocrisy, isn't it? Without naming names or particular examples since that'd probably be flamebait and against the board rules, there's several examples of the exact opposite than what the above Nation example shows.

A Holder RPer that has in the past been a slaver has had some character progression and is no longer a slaver. This has led to something I find very odd. The character is now shunned with the OoC explanation that 'unless you return to be a slaver you won't be getting RP'. This boggles my mind a bit, considering the above example of inclusion into RP against IC and realistic consequences. Where's the sense in this?

On the one hand, characters and factions that should by all reasonable logic be shunned or excluded socially gets free passes while someone who should have become the attention of the Amarr loyalists through political and ideological RP, debates and discussions, religious or not get shunned on an OoC reasoning for not following the partyline of 'slavery WOOOH!'?

I am disappointed by this. I wouldn't have minded either of the two as much if there'd been consistency, but this? This is just 'Oh, if you don't RP the way we want we'll metagame you out of our community. Nevermind our metagaming when it comes to those other guys we'd probably shoot in a realistic setting.'.

[Borza]

^ Exactly what Mizhara said. People want to have their cake and eat it, but it can be totally immersion breaking to see.

[Laerise [PIE]]

To put it like father Hackett "YES!".

While I do perfectly understand the craving to get more interaction, I do find the tendency amongst the self-styled "RP mainstream" to huggle up together quite .. well at first I was about to say vexing, but in the end it really boils down to disinterrest into what they do, since to me at least its pretty dull.

Thumbs up to UK for being reliable enemies and to the khanids / 1pg for being constant entertainment btw. 

[Louella Dougans]

No impact on the social scene at all. No "How dare you monsters show your faces here? Get out before you are thrown out!" or anything like that.

as i understand things, that's not what Ashar's getting at.

as I understand it, it's more of the situation that "monsters" would not receive any interaction. I.e. it would simply be /kick and /ban from channel, rather than rp'ing it out.

[Laerise [PIE]]

No impact on the social scene at all. No "How dare you monsters show your faces here? Get out before you are thrown out!" or anything like that.

as i understand things, that's not what Ashar's getting at.

as I understand it, it's more of the situation that "monsters" would not receive any interaction. I.e. it would simply be /kick and /ban from channel, rather than rp'ing it out.

Of course they would not, not in a world that made sense.

Would you invite a 'monster' to come over for a visit an invite her/him to stay for tea?
Lets be serious, most of us would actually answer this question with a no, depending on what you define the 'monster' to be.

Sure, there will always be people who are open to a lot of stuff, but in the end, no matter how much you like it, we are all still subject to our upbringing and the social networks we live in.

[Graanvlokkie]

I, as a Sansha loyalist, want to be "hugglefucked" as soon as I enter a room, and will thus make every effort to join the "RP-Mainstream".

Honestly, I issolate myself from all IC interaction because I dont metagame and IC I wouldnt want to interact with most other charaters. It leads to zero RP.

[Jev North]

I think there are decent arguments for and against the in-character shunning of enemies. Not every conflict is a WWII-style total war, and not every person or culture is going to treat declared enemies, or people nominally affiliated with declared enemies, in exactly the same way. Jev, for example, would leap at the chance of casual social interaction with the Nation capsuleers; she might think that the Sansha are a threat to be eliminated post-haste, but at the same time she's deeply curious about what goes on in the minds of her fellow capsuleers, and of all the things she might do to counter the Nation, socially snubbing their capsuleers seems simply petty-minded and ineffectual. Other characters might reason very differently, and are perfectly entitled to do so, in my opinion.

OOCly snubbing people with characters in opposing factions is of course just plain silly. You don't have to interact with anyone you don't want to, but it seems pointless to let in-character opposition bleed through like that.

[Seriphyn]

EDIT - actually, fuck it, never mind. I'll stay out of this.

[Lyn Farel]

The main issue comes from the Sansha agents trying whatever they can to look "human friendly". As soon as the Sansha agents will look that way, I don't understand why they should be outcasts everywhere. Honestly and for the sake of not raising a godwin point here, lets say History has had its lot of despicable monsters and that they still had some propaganda working on, and it worked at least a bit.

Anyway, I do not consider my character doing anything wrong ICly when "curiosity above all else" is her main motive. Though I have to admit I have been very, very surprised to see KotMC still accepting Sansha supporters ICly when they ban 'mere' blooders and EoMs.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

The only socialising  that makes sense with enemy aligned characters is a tad limited.

You can have rather stilited and formal negotations over, say, a temporary ceasefire or a prisoner exchange. Because it is the OOC groups that are at war peace talks aren't really an option.

If a third party is seen as a more urgent problem then you might briefly agree to focus on that and put mutual differences aside for a time. I think it is a shame that this hasn't been happening more.

The Sansha, and the other psycho pirate factions (Blooders & EoM) are in something of a hole here because they really are written up as completely outside the mainstream. The EoM are an even more extreme case of this but, outside of a few missions, they don't seem to show up much. There certainly don't seem to be that many capsuleers who have declared their aleigance to them.

Angels, Guristas and Serpentis are easier to find a rationale to interact with. They can provide a service that you need or can be used as a tool to indirectly attack a foe. They are a lot easier to understand and empathise with in terms of their motivations and goals.

Stepping outside the human mainstream should have consequences. Even if they are only a limit on the people that will speak to you.

[Seriphyn]

I'll chip in briefly.

Do not mistake a character trying to "socially isolate" another character as an attempt to isolate players. Do I RP with Sansha characters? You're bloody well right I do, even if it's mostly Seriphyn voicing his anger and disagreements with lots of swear words.

OOC, I agree with Mizhara that it's a bit "wat". It's not a case of not wanting to RP with Sansha, we need enemies, and I certainly need to keep the fire of Seriphyn's hate for Sansha burning (which occurs in large part in interaction with Sansha RPers, like Jia-Lei Lian). It becomes different when you're shouting at each in local, to when you're all having a ball together.

[Jev North]

Stepping outside the human mainstream should have consequences. Even if they are only a limit on the people that will speak to you.

Being a capsuleer means stepping outside the human mainstream. Bet'cha dollars to donuts that from most "normal" perspectives, every single capsuleer in the room could be considered some kind of monster.

[Kaleigh Doyle]

It doesn't help the bulk of RP characters in eve are racist ideologues and zealots. It's kinda hard to interact with these types of people to begin with, especially if they don't fit into narrow archetypes

[Senn Typhos]

Stepping outside the human mainstream should have consequences. Even if they are only a limit on the people that will speak to you.

Being a capsuleer means stepping outside the human mainstream. Bet'cha dollars to donuts that from most "normal" perspectives, every single capsuleer in the room could be considered some kind of monster.

I'll skip my usual point here, you all prolly know how I consider capsuleers OOCly.

As far as exclusionist RP, I really don't know what to think. On the one hand, I've practiced it myself; after receiving OOC flak for IC decisions, the best I could think to say was "if it's gonna piss you off, ignore it." It's advice I think we all need to take from time to time. It's a tangent, but it brings me to the next point...

There's a level to which we as RPers are kind of forced to interact with one another, in the same way real individuals often have to interact with people they might not agree with entirely or even like at all. Even in just going about my daily business, Senn comes into contact with a lot of people he reviles. It leads to some interesting interaction.

Here's what it comes down to for me; it comes down to personal discretion, because it was an event. That means the individuals running things make the decision. Are the Sansha capsuleers in question "evil" enough that they shouldn't be allowed in? Are they an opportunity for your character to show how tolerant - even falsely so - he/she is? Ask them to leave, warn them about your security team, whatever. As long as you can handle the consequences, and your character can, you can justify plenty.

As for exclusionist behavior, well, I'll say that Jev said it best so far.