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The last time someone attacked the Jovians, it was the Amarr, at Vak'atioth, and the Amarr fleet was crushed?

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Author Topic: Just gonna leave this here.  (Read 9424 times)

Niki Bot

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #15 on: 04 Oct 2010, 11:08 »

Ashar, what are the problems that you and others see with the forums?  What are the perceived problems?

I understand that you have a different way of going about things but this isn't constructive.  As you've said to me before in not so many words, "if you're the only one that gets it, what's the point?"  I see that one of your points is in regards to appeals, what do you see as needing change in this regard?

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I didn't lay out criteria for you above, I merely underscored the existence of one of this forum's problems. This problem is a hurdle for a good number of potential users that might be here contributing if it were corrected.

How would a simple change of moderation alleviate this problem?

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This isn't really possible anymore, simply because of the pathetic number of active members. It doesn't work to attempt to advance a thoughtful position with a group whose chief interests do not always align with the sort of patchwork collaborative writing and content development we do here and whose scope does not represent anything like an appropriate number of people or perspectives for good results.

Sometimes it's best to work with what you do have available.  I remember when you yourself promoted Chatsubo, and got a young player of a character by the name of Amann Karris to look there for the first time.  It's how I found out about a certain contest that led to me acquiring a character by the name of Nikilaiki Ruutarhara.  It was a wonderful place once.  Times change, people change.  Look at your own statements and think about this:  Is it really the moderation that is the problem?  Is it the rules?  Is it your own expectations, or how those expectations are met?

To quote a certain pointy-eared philosopher, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."  There's a reason Spock is my favorite character in Star Trek.  ;)  McCoy is my second favorite, for different reasons.  :D
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scagga

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #16 on: 04 Oct 2010, 12:32 »

I'm not.

Which begs the question, why are you here, Lallara dear?
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scagga

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #17 on: 04 Oct 2010, 12:36 »

For want of a more constructive input into this thread - how about a private feedback system is created (e.g. with appropriate pro-forma that can be filled in via a link)? I imagine this would allow people to suggest changes directly without the same 'exposure' that may be interpreted to be felt from posting a public thread/forcing a discussion of a potentially less popular idea, that would in turn be diluted in the discussion of them whom the OP would view as incompatible opinioned.
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Ulphus

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #18 on: 04 Oct 2010, 14:12 »

I watched chatsubo for more than a year. I never posted until just before I stopped watching, because frankly I didn't like the atmosphere.

I post here. In large part because of the atmosphere, which I put down to the moderation.
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Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #19 on: 04 Oct 2010, 15:55 »

I don't understand.

It seems as if you are trying to say your thoughts, but hiding it under vague wording. What's the problem?
The problem is twofold - primarily, it is that when we're talking to someone with my level of experience with the pitfalls of certain portions of the community, I must work very hard not to light any fuses, my own or otherwise, and secondarily, it is that I'm trying to avoid putting together an inaccurate list of percieved symptoms for this particular ailment that I claims exists.

These things mean there's going to be a certain vagueness to my thoughts.
your point seems sort of incorrect Ashar, to shorten and paraphrase, you basically seem to be saying "I want to be able to have looser debates, like on chatsubo."
I don't mention that in any way connected to my primary point.
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however, your argument that a lot of people want to be able to do that is invalid because, if they did they'd still be on chatsubo. People knew about the moderation and things here. thats why they came here in the first place.
No. People came here to escape the attitudes and tendencies encountered in discussion on chatsubo. There was still moderation of a variety of inappropriate forms of content there; the problem wasn't the policies or the practice of moderating content. It was the practice of not reigning in or effectively reforming those who regularly committed a cardinal sin while the petty blasphemers were thrown in the stocks and handed whippings left and right.

Over a period of years, his behavior finally destroyed the capacity of that forum to be useful to its userbase, save for those who were using it to feed off each other.

Let's not feed off each other in this thread, please.

Let's also not make the mistake that being an improvement over the old regime makes one a servant of undeniable virtue.
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Saying you want loose rules and moderation seems to me like going to an amusement park then complaining that its not a carnival.
I guess the takeaway here is unclear, unless you're trying to tell me that your typical carnival is less strict than an amusement park? I don't know.
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Everyone is here because of the moderation.
I was hoping we would learn by now not to speak for others.
Ashar, what are the problems that you and others see with the forums?  What are the perceived problems?
I'll go into this shortly, in another post.
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I understand that you have a different way of going about things but this isn't constructive.  As you've said to me before in not so many words, "if you're the only one that gets it, what's the point?" 
I will be blunt because we have a friendship and a mutual understanding.

There's a difference between you being the only one to see a massive network of connections in some fiction and getting myopic about it on the one hand and me talking to a few dozen people, getting a certain response rather often, and being the only one here to voice it because the response invariably starts with 'I don't post or read backstage because _________' on the other hand. This is due to the the supporting parties definitely existing - in numbers - in my case and 'getting it,' but being disinclined to come here and state their case because they don't come here.

Forgive me if I wish not to put words in their mouths.
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I see that one of your points is in regards to appeals, what do you see as needing change in this regard?
I'll think about it and see if I can put it more concretely.
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I didn't lay out criteria for you above, I merely underscored the existence of one of this forum's problems. This problem is a hurdle for a good number of potential users that might be here contributing if it were corrected.
How would a simple change of moderation alleviate this problem?
I don't think I suggested that just yet, so I'll put the question down to your own initiative to get the conversation moving along towards a proposal. Don't think I'm prepared to go there at this point.
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Sometimes it's best to work with what you do have available.  I remember when you yourself promoted Chatsubo, and got a young player of a character by the name of Amann Karris to look there for the first time.  It's how I found out about a certain contest that led to me acquiring a character by the name of Nikilaiki Ruutarhara.  It was a wonderful place once.  Times change, people change. 
You were a new player then? Damn.
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Look at your own statements and think about this:  Is it really the moderation that is the problem?  Is it the rules?  Is it your own expectations, or how those expectations are met?
'Kay.
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To quote a certain pointy-eared philosopher, "The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few, or the one."  There's a reason Spock is my favorite character in Star Trek.  ;)  McCoy is my second favorite, for different reasons.  :D
Got nothin' left but ma bones.

Also, you have no taste, elf-lover.
For want of a more constructive input into this thread - how about a private feedback system is created (e.g. with appropriate pro-forma that can be filled in via a link)? I imagine this would allow people to suggest changes directly without the same 'exposure' that may be interpreted to be felt from posting a public thread/forcing a discussion of a potentially less popular idea, that would in turn be diluted in the discussion of them whom the OP would view as incompatible opinioned.
How about, as a courtesy to the staff, we ensure that whatever solution we propose is something the party that will bear the weight of instituting solutions can bear? I can't code that shit, can you? Be awesome if you could.
I'm not.
Which begs the question, why are you here, Lallara dear?
...This came off a bit more combative than you likely intended it, despite the kind tone in it. Possibly because it sounds like certain other users.
« Last Edit: 04 Oct 2010, 20:30 by Ashar Kor-Azor »
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Silver Night

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #20 on: 04 Oct 2010, 16:18 »

What are the reasons that the people you have talked to give for not posting here? Specifically?

Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #21 on: 04 Oct 2010, 18:02 »

Welp. I'm at work so I don't have my notes, but let's see what I can remember.

Incidentally, none of these people are members of any kind of cadre, if you take my meaning, Silver.

Three or four of the people I spoke to complained primarily of the lack of utility for them; comments related to the access to useful critiques of their content were common in this group, because most of them were writers.

A full half-dozen was wary of the strictness of moderation and not fond of the principle of a forum being 'offensively inoffensive.'

However, one particularly intelligent individual who would be quite useful to have around maintained that the atmosphere of moderation was detrimental to people's capability to offer criticism to such a point that it was harming the capacity of the viewer to express themselves in regard to the quality of content, and this had resulted in nothing less than the collection of useless trivialities in a variety of sections.

There was at least one incident of someone being turned off by a given user's ability to get away with posting self-aggrandizing content and then to not be chastened for it because no-one wished to run afoul of the moderators, leading this poster to go and be freely egocentric for thousands of words. Then again, they were also pretty freaked out by the D/S thread and a few of our in-jokes, so who knows.

The rest, I'll tell you about later. I was thinking of making a graph.
« Last Edit: 04 Oct 2010, 18:04 by Ashar Kor-Azor »
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Silver Night

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #22 on: 04 Oct 2010, 19:10 »


Three or four of the people I spoke to complained primarily of the lack of utility for them; comments related to the access to useful critiques of their content were common in this group, because most of them were writers.

This seems to be a misunderstanding, so if people aren't aware, let me clarify: Critiques of writing are perfectly acceptable. Of course, we can't force people to critique other people's writing, but it is certainly allowed within the rules as long as it's constructive as opposed to 'I didn't like your story, and you're a terrible writer' type stuff.

We could even add something to the description(s) of the relevant section(s) to make it clear that it's perfectly alright to provide constructive feedback.

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A full half-dozen was wary of the strictness of moderation and not fond of the principle of a forum being 'offensively inoffensive.'

Were these people who had actually posted? Or did they just feel that the moderation was to strict based on...? What they'd heard? I would like to point you back to the rules and guidelines, which I think are pretty reasonable. I don't think anyone is fond of 'offensively inoffensive' and it is something we are aware of, when we moderate. I realize that it may be too restrictive for some. As I mentioned earlier, pleasing everyone isn't going to happen.

Part of the idea in setting up this forum was to have a moderation environment that would prevent the causes, not just the specific symptoms, of some of the issues people have had with Chatsubo and other internet forums in general. I think that we have largely been successful in that.


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However, one particularly intelligent individual who would be quite useful to have around maintained that the atmosphere of moderation was detrimental to people's capability to offer criticism to such a point that it was harming the capacity of the viewer to express themselves in regard to the quality of content, and this had resulted in nothing less than the collection of useless trivialities in a variety of sections.

There was at least one incident of someone being turned off by a given user's ability to get away with posting self-aggrandizing content and then to not be chastened for it because no-one wished to run afoul of the moderators, leading this poster to go and be freely egocentric for thousands of words. Then again, they were also pretty freaked out by the D/S thread and a few of our in-jokes, so who knows.


I will say it again: There is nothing wrong with posting constructive criticism. If someone isn't able to distinguish between that and a personal attack or other breach of the rules, they can feel free to ask here or PM a mod about what would be acceptable, using the specific situation.

However, users here don't 'get away with' posting self-aggrandizing content. They are free to post it if they would like. Everyone else is free to not read it. People can be as egocentric as they would like. If it makes them happy, more power to them, and I don't see that it hurts anyone else. Of course, it may lead to others not particularly wanting to interact with them, but that's how it goes.

While it isn't to my taste, or many people's taste, clearly they think it is a worthwhile use of their time. They aren't forcing anyone else to read it. If someone does want to critique it, they can feel free, and as I said above, if they are concerned about moderation, they can ask. Legitimate, constructive critiques on the substance of someone's writing isn't going to draw moderation. The key is the constructive part: Suggest what they might have done differently that you feel would improve the piece. Don't attack them.

As you mention, we have threads addressing fairly adult issues. I don't think in that area we are 'offensively inoffensive.' What we do moderate for is to create an environment where that sort of discussion can be had without people being afraid that they will be attacked over their personal lives, or where novice writers can put up their work without having a bunch of people jump all over them for perceived poor writing or because they are 'doing it wrong'.

Ashar Kor-Azor

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #23 on: 04 Oct 2010, 19:28 »

Silver has missed my points!

When I am out of this cold hell at work and my fingers have thawed enough to type, I will learn him good.

Ken

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #24 on: 04 Oct 2010, 22:30 »

As Silver points out, constructive criticism is welcomed and unmoderated.

Ashar, do you think a subforum that doesn't receive quite such rigorous scrutiny from the moderators would satisfy the trepidations of this group?  People could dip down there for some good old wall-of-text debates or whatever it is that they're missing in the rest of the forum.  ::brainstorms:: Hmm... The No-Holds Bar  :yar:
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Vikarion

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #25 on: 05 Oct 2010, 01:08 »

As Silver points out, constructive criticism is welcomed and unmoderated.

Ashar, do you think a subforum that doesn't receive quite such rigorous scrutiny from the moderators would satisfy the trepidations of this group?  People could dip down there for some good old wall-of-text debates or whatever it is that they're missing in the rest of the forum.  ::brainstorms:: Hmm... The No-Holds Bar  :yar:

Check out the former "bitching" section of the chatsubo forums. Yeeeaaah. That one.

Let's not.
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Vikarion

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #26 on: 05 Oct 2010, 01:18 »

Personally - and this is strictly personally - I don't see why the creators of this forum should seek to access a wider user base at the cost of quality. After all, this board was explicitly designed with fairer and stricter moderation as integral to its existence. We didn't all just leave Chatsubo because it was unfair moderation - although it was, and blatantly so - but also because we just got tired of even the technically legal name-calling, combativeness, and etc. Here, whether people want to be nice or not, they have to be, because otherwise the catacombs will claim their post.

I like that. I like that so much that if I'm moderated in even part of a post, I consign the whole thing to oblivion. This kind of standard has led to a much higher amount of utility and/or content per post than was common on Chatsubo, and, moreover, has created a much more civil atmosphere.

Strict moderation breeds competent and interesting posting. Perhaps there is slightly less of it because of the high standards, but it is nonetheless worth it, if for no other reason, than that no one else seems to be offering it. There are many places to post without much moderation, and as a result, those many places are largely a waste of time to read (again, for me). Here, we have an island of civilized and emotionally controlled discussion, and I would hazard that that is why Backstage has been so successful thus far.

The instant we drop that is the instant I will find it is no longer worth it to come here.
« Last Edit: 05 Oct 2010, 01:20 by Vikarion »
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Senn Typhos

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #27 on: 05 Oct 2010, 01:35 »

Do I like it when arguments I approve of, or posts I felt to be justified, are clipped? No.

Do I recognize the importance of having a (hopefully) unbiased moderator TO clip my posts when I step over a line and save me from myself? Of course I do.
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GoGo Yubari

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #28 on: 05 Oct 2010, 02:31 »

I came here for the popularity and activity - simple.

While I may be ideologically slightly opposed to heavy-handed moderation, on a practical level I don't really care because well, since 2004, none of my writings on various Eve forums have been moderated in any fashion (except to split a topic where requested, I suppose). Heh.
« Last Edit: 05 Oct 2010, 02:33 by GoGo Yubari »
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Saede Riordan

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Re: Just gonna leave this here.
« Reply #29 on: 05 Oct 2010, 08:15 »

Do I like it when arguments I approve of, or posts I felt to be justified, are clipped? No.

Do I recognize the importance of having a (hopefully) unbiased moderator TO clip my posts when I step over a line and save me from myself? Of course I do.

This pretty much to a T
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