Backstage - OOC Forums
EVE-Online RP Discussion and Resources => EVE OOC Summit => Topic started by: Seriphyn on 25 Jul 2010, 15:09
-
A problem with immersion and believability with me in EVE, and I think a few others too, is how when it gets down to individual interaction in bars and other places, everything and everyone seems to be Western, or, in EVE case, Gallente. Not really anyone's fault, since everyone here is pretty much of a Western disposition.
I don't know if anyone here has much experience in foreign cultures, but let's use an example of Amarr. I have a rough image of what a non-Westernized, traditional bar in Iran is like. Men sitting at tables in a quiet environment, probably no bar of any kind, being served by a waiter. I imagine a Caldari bar would be the same too.
I mean, hell, just like IRL, I imagine these cultures to be totally, totally different, but the bars RP'd in EVE pretty much seem indistinguishable. Skyhook, PVBOS Grill, Last Gate...
Not to mention, a lot of the female characters are RPed like the Ethnic Gallente female desc of being vibrant and girly girl and that. My point is, is where is the cultural flavour and variety in EVE RP?
I could elaborate but I think people know what I'm talking about :)
-
I actually get more frustrated by everyone RPing in bars. Most people don't frequent them IRL, or at least not all their lives, so why should we always hang out there IC?
And I sort of don't understand how Amarrian and Caldari social settings would resemble each other...
-
And I sort of don't understand how Amarrian and Caldari social settings would resemble each other...
Well, moreso in the fact that neither of which would be remotely anything Gallentean/Western.
Gallentean cultural permutation that's hammered around in PF could be dramatic license, though.
I'd like to be able to walk into an Amarrian bar and be like "Right, okay, I'm RPing Amarrian now"
-
I agree with you Seri, but it's not something that's easily changed unfortunately.
Of those even willing to go another way and start RPing in a different manner, there will also be people who don't want to swap in what they've already created for that. In other words people may be like "Hey you're right, but I'd be willing to give it a spin to RP like a true Amarrian or anything, but........ not with this character.".
You have a perfectly valid point, but changing it will be hard.
Edit: In fact let me make that intention a bit clearer: It won't just be hard, imho it's quite an unreasonable expectation.
-
Personally I have RPed in a few unmistakably Minmatar establishments. I suspect that conveying diverse atmospheres presents far more difficulty than one might suppose. Otherwise, why not do it yourself? :)
-
I am pretty sure most of the places you described are run by criminally aligned organizations.
I have a rough image of what a non-Westernized, traditional bar in Iran is like. Men sitting at tables in a quiet environment, probably no bar of any kind, being served by a waiter.
The West (and Gallente) has (have) these too. They are Private Clubs, where old powerful men sit around in comfy chairs and smoke cigars and discuss how to make it illegal to have new-fangled dance clubs, where the waiters are half nude and sucking on lollipops.
In the non-Western world, like Tehran, Beijing, or Dheli the younger/edger demographic is going mix the energy found in a western bar/club with their own cultural preference.
The bars/clubs you listed are just that - edger establishments on the fringes of their society.
-
Amarr hang out in bars? i thought their RP channels were temples or some sort of grand religious building to gardens and all.
-
Amarr hang out in bars? i thought their RP channels were temples or some sort of grand religious building to gardens and all.
lol
I do believe even Amarr visit bars at times, yes.
-
Frankly I am kind of confused with, and slightly sick of, the forced anthropology I see with the races in eve. Caldari HAVE to be a bunch of green tea drinkers? Why are we constantly assigning cultures to the bloodlines that HAVE to resemble their supposed old earth counterparts? Is it because people need a sense of familiarity? They seem to resemble the Japanese and therefore have to BE Japanese? Myabe i am crazy, but I just don't get it.
-
Why don't we make a solution and start up a new channel that serves as another social gathering? Alcohol isn't so important that we have to meet new people there, and show off our pirate pecs.
-
The Crying siren, Grey seams and other Ammatar establishments may have been a taste of something different.
Hrr
Re: Socialising in Amarr/Persian style:
Use grades of veiled politeness for every mood and enact humbleness competitions. Put out imbricate tables, coloured glass tea cups and generous portions of various rarities - that are repeatedly offered from one patron to another to insist that they indulge ever more. Talk about food, a lot, and the food you used to eat, and whom were good at preparing it. Bring on seemingly sincere discussions of people's health, their families, their family histories, how their families interweave and reminisce over points of interest repeatedly. Never discuss politics if you aren't alone. Never discuss religion in the presence of unfamiliar company. Never confront others in polite company. Never make repeated eye-contact to females (and wtf are they doing there without a chaperone?).
Show an appreciation for fine handicrafts (carpets in particular), spend time describing their origin and the purity of the sourced requisite materials. Show appreciation for successes of people in the fields of science, literature related to theology of shared interest or ethics and morality. Show appreciation of plays on words, tell stories and describe something unusual. Show evidence of esotericism, a little subtle boasting when in the company of friends. Compliment intensely, in a superfluous manner, never insult directly. Avoid intoxicating drinks. Tea and opiates on the other hand, are acceptable in the more liberal circles.
Bored or interested?
-
Why don't we make a solution and start up a new channel that serves as another social gathering? Alcohol isn't so important that we have to meet new people there, and show off our pirate pecs.
I think it has to do with the fact that except for a few individuals, the idea of sitting around with a bunch of ultra religious bastards drinking mint tea and discussing the merits of increased restrictions on the showing of ankles, is quite fucking boring.
The bar and alcohol environment is universal when it comes to socialization. Look up Three Sheets with Zane Lamprey. It is everywhere, in every country, and every culture. Just because a minority of teetotallers and uptight bastards don't participate, doesn't mean the majority doesn't either.
As far as the cigar lounge fat cat thing, that was what Kanpuu Elite was about, and it was a great channel before I closed it. But making it public would have defeated the purpose. Myself and the regulars sure as shit didn't want some sub-billionaire frigate jockey just walking in and trying to fake it.
-
The Crying siren, Grey seams and other Ammatar establishments may have been a taste of something different.
Hrr
Re: Socialising in Amarr/Persian style:
Use grades of veiled politeness for every mood and enact humbleness competitions. Put out imbricate tables, coloured glass tea cups and generous portions of various rarities - that are repeatedly offered from one patron to another to insist that they indulge ever more. Talk about food, a lot, and the food you used to eat, and whom were good at preparing it. Bring on seemingly sincere discussions of people's health, their families, their family histories, how their families interweave and reminisce over points of interest repeatedly. Never discuss politics if you aren't alone. Never discuss religion in the presence of unfamiliar company. Never confront others in polite company. Never make repeated eye-contact to females (and wtf are they doing there without a chaperone?).
Show an appreciation for fine handicrafts (carpets in particular), spend time describing their origin and the purity of the sourced requisite materials. Show appreciation for successes of people in the fields of science, literature related to theology of shared interest or ethics and morality. Show appreciation of plays on words, tell stories and describe something unusual. Show evidence of esotericism, a little subtle boasting when in the company of friends. Compliment intensely, in a superfluous manner, never insult directly. Avoid intoxicating drinks. Tea and opiates on the other hand, are acceptable in the more liberal circles.
Bored or interested?
Utterly boring for only one reason. Too much resemblance to oh I don't know, Iran? I can go there in RL for that. I don't want to experience Iran in space.
-
Hmm... I dunno. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but the main Caldari RP channel for me is the Heiian College.
Also, I haven't been there in a while, but the Caldari also have the Tea House:
Tea House
A massive wooden floor austerely decorated in Caldari fashion, with some heavy concrete vases here and there holding kresh branches. There are some tatamis lying on the floor for the guests to sit on. The feeling of austerity is reinforced by the sound of deep solemn drums played by a hidden sound system. A hanging scroll displays an exquisite calligraphic work that reads: "True tea is made with water drawn from the depths of mind"
Seems very Caldari to me. Quiet reflection, connection to the ancestors.
And besides, it's a good place to give poison tea to people who let down the corp.
-
The Crying siren, Grey seams and other Ammatar establishments may have been a taste of something different.
Hrr
Re: Socialising in Amarr/Persian style:
Use grades of veiled politeness for every mood and enact humbleness competitions. Put out imbricate tables, coloured glass tea cups and generous portions of various rarities - that are repeatedly offered from one patron to another to insist that they indulge ever more. Talk about food, a lot, and the food you used to eat, and whom were good at preparing it. Bring on seemingly sincere discussions of people's health, their families, their family histories, how their families interweave and reminisce over points of interest repeatedly. Never discuss politics if you aren't alone. Never discuss religion in the presence of unfamiliar company. Never confront others in polite company. Never make repeated eye-contact to females (and wtf are they doing there without a chaperone?).
Show an appreciation for fine handicrafts (carpets in particular), spend time describing their origin and the purity of the sourced requisite materials. Show appreciation for successes of people in the fields of science, literature related to theology of shared interest or ethics and morality. Show appreciation of plays on words, tell stories and describe something unusual. Show evidence of esotericism, a little subtle boasting when in the company of friends. Compliment intensely, in a superfluous manner, never insult directly. Avoid intoxicating drinks. Tea and opiates on the other hand, are acceptable in the more liberal circles.
Bored or interested?
Utterly boring for only one reason. Too much resemblance to oh I don't know, Iran? I can go there in RL for that. I don't want to experience Iran in space.
It is evident from your previous post that you find Amarrian conservativism, inalienably and legitimately latent within the gamme of EvE cultures, to your subjective distaste.
However:
In construing an Amarrian cultural environment, it is not necessarily a question of what representation of Amarrian culture one likes, in my opinion. Rather, it is more a question of what representation of Amarrian culture could be considered by the most scrupulous collection of minds, to be accurate post-examination of available canonical material.
If indeed it were surmised that Persian culture bears semblance to aspects of Amarrian culture, notwithstanding the interest that a mentionable proportion of EvE-playing population has in and pleasure that they derive from emulating it, it would not be a fair statement to use an objective tone to deride it.
(recognise that the next statement is in jest...) The alternative is globalisation, or more aptly universalisation of Gallentean hedonistic, degenerate and etoh-drinking ways.
-
Hmm... I dunno. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but the main Caldari RP channel for me is the Heiian College.
Also, I haven't been there in a while, but the Caldari also have the Tea House:
Tea House
A massive wooden floor austerely decorated in Caldari fashion, with some heavy concrete vases here and there holding kresh branches. There are some tatamis lying on the floor for the guests to sit on. The feeling of austerity is reinforced by the sound of deep solemn drums played by a hidden sound system. A hanging scroll displays an exquisite calligraphic work that reads: "True tea is made with water drawn from the depths of mind"
Seems very Caldari to me. Quiet reflection, connection to the ancestors.
And besides, it's a good place to give poison tea to people who let down the corp.
Right. Because the Civire are all about passiveness, quiet reflection, intellectualism, seeking enlightenment, and enjoying peace and tranquility.
-
And Scagga, please don't get me wrong on this. The lack of outside the box thinking about the anthropology in New Eden drives me crazy, and yes I am being an opinionated selfish little bitch about it. I fully accept that people can RP any way they want, and anthropologize New Eden culture all they want. I am not "angry" at anyone for doing it. I just have higher expectations of this of all gaming communities.
Repeat for great justice: I know that my opinion sucks in the eyes of most. I accept it and own it.
-
And Scagga, please don't get me wrong on this. The lack of outside the box thinking about the anthropology in New Eden drives me crazy, and yes I am being an opinionated selfish little bitch about it. I fully accept that people can RP any way they want, and anthropologize New Eden culture all they want. I am not "angry" at anyone for doing it. I just have higher expectations of this of all gaming communities.
Repeat for great justice: I know that my opinion sucks in the eyes of most. I accept it and own it.
Thank you for the clarification.
Anthropology is not my background, and I would conjecture that this is a common negative finding. Are you saying that it is within your expectations that de novo creation/'anthropologising' of EvE cultures occurs, independent of pre-existing terran models to anchor them on? Sounds like the realm of a successful writer, successful enough to most probably not have the time to play EvE in my opinion.
The 'higher expectations' you mentioned intrigued me - why of 'this' community? (I believe it is acutely relevant to the discussion topic)
-
Thank you, the book is coming along nicely (no seriously), except I am at a dead end on some of my psychiatric research and need some help that google and wikipedia cannot provide.
As far as the high expectations, even the people I cannot stand ICly in EvE, come accross as a whole as extremely intelligent, very creative imaginative people. The higher the quality of the members of the community, the higher my expectations are.
-
Hmm... I dunno. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but the main Caldari RP channel for me is the Heiian College.
Also, I haven't been there in a while, but the Caldari also have the Tea House:
Tea House
A massive wooden floor austerely decorated in Caldari fashion, with some heavy concrete vases here and there holding kresh branches. There are some tatamis lying on the floor for the guests to sit on. The feeling of austerity is reinforced by the sound of deep solemn drums played by a hidden sound system. A hanging scroll displays an exquisite calligraphic work that reads: "True tea is made with water drawn from the depths of mind"
Seems very Caldari to me. Quiet reflection, connection to the ancestors.
And besides, it's a good place to give poison tea to people who let down the corp.
Do people still come there? I've been there a few times and it was completely dead.... recently.
Edit: Tea House, that is.
-
/me blinks, trying to parse out what Scagga wrote.
And Boma, your phrase "forced anthropology" sums up what I tried to say earlier, only much better: EVE cultures aren't RL cultures that have been lifted wholesale into New Eden, with just a find-and-replace job run on the names. The Amarr aren't Catholic (and certainly not Muslim), though one can find significant elements of both within them, any more than the Caldari are Finn-Japanese or the Gallente are French, though again we can clearly see some of those elements within them.
As for the OP: I did try a IC channel for the discussion of scientific and technical topics once in the past, and occasionally consider trying something new. But I fear that it would rapidly get overrun with the FotM discussions about the Sansha invasions, so I've left it alone.
-
Hmm... I dunno. Maybe I'm out of the loop, but the main Caldari RP channel for me is the Heiian College.
Also, I haven't been there in a while, but the Caldari also have the Tea House:
Tea House
A massive wooden floor austerely decorated in Caldari fashion, with some heavy concrete vases here and there holding kresh branches. There are some tatamis lying on the floor for the guests to sit on. The feeling of austerity is reinforced by the sound of deep solemn drums played by a hidden sound system. A hanging scroll displays an exquisite calligraphic work that reads: "True tea is made with water drawn from the depths of mind"
Seems very Caldari to me. Quiet reflection, connection to the ancestors.
And besides, it's a good place to give poison tea to people who let down the corp.
Do people still come there? I've been there a few times and it was completely dead.... recently.
Edit: Tea House, that is.
Yeah the Tea house is fairly dead. I really need to work on publicizing that place a bit more sometime. My CEO created it and a backrooom to it as well. From what he says it used to be pretty busy, but I guess it died off. Heiian College is full most of the time, but no one really says much. Discussion pics up at times, but moslty its just people saying hi then they shut up.
-
The Caldari are not Japanese, or Finnish - they certainly aren't portrayed that way in any of the PF. At least, not if anyone knows something about Japanese culture.
What are the Caldari closest to? From the racial descriptions, PF, Epic Arc missions, and so forth, they're a lot like conservative America with a few curve-balls thrown in.
- They're more morally conservative than the other empires.
- Xenophobic/culturally insular, but not racist.
- Socially conservative, economically libertarian.
Dex Nederland once described them as being similar to a 1800's railroad town (for you europeans, small towns that sprang up around railroad operations/construction). I feel this is very close to the truth.
Whatever else, they are very focused on working hard - note how their primary leader (Heth) is himself a worker. They are populist, in a sense, distrusting elites who don't come up through the ranks (note how well the story of Otro Garuishi, a popular hero, conforms to the American story of going from hardship to success through hard work, a bit of cleverness, and the overcoming of a corrupt elitist establishment). They are also the premier sports fans of the cluster, the biggest gamblers, the ones who play hardest. The Guristas aren't known as a biker-gang-writ-large for no reason.
What a lot of people don't seem to get (from my point of view, granted) is that the fight between the Caldari and the Federation isn't "America and Western Europe versus Japan", its "America and Western Europe versus itself". It's economic freedom and social authoritarianism versus economic authoritarianism and social liberalism. And this is why both nations have so many expatriates from the other: some people want freedom in regards to who they are, others want to have the maximum amount of economic mobility.
And thus, we can see where much of the malice in both societies come from. To the Gallente, the Caldari are barbarians: restricting individual freedoms and thereby eliminating individuality. To the Caldari, the Gallente are tyrants who seek to make elitist control available only to those who know the right people - the in group, as it were. And for a culture that, due to environmental reasons, lagged behind the Federation for so long, they were not and are not in that group. The Caldari can be said to have an inferiority complex, the Gallente have a narcissistic and elitist one.
Now, you may not agree with the above view, and that's fine.
-
Firstly, I just want to say that I have no formal education in the field of sociology or anthropology, but I find these kinds of discussions incredibly fascinating when relating to our own mindset when role-playing a character.
I think before one can even touch upon the notion of whether a person's effectiveness in representing a culture/society is accurate, the actor and the audience both must have a general understanding of these defining characteristics in mind before rendering judgement. If we inject real world interpretations of what a society is (a body of people living in a system), versus its culture (defining characteristics of a body of people), we can appreciate that a culture can permeate through many societies. I think this clarification is useful when trying to approach similar discussions had recently about the Nature of the Angel Cartel and whether they are simply a 'society' or are a society with a unique culture (ie., are they noted for having a unique method of thought, a defining language, or is it all borrowed from other cultures?)
If we take this into consideration, what are the dominant cultures of New Eden? And more importantly, what defines these cultures?
The Gallente Federation, for instance, is a society of people united under a common legal and economic standard across several cultures. The dominant cultures that we are aware of are the Gallentean culture, the Intaki Culture, and the Jin-Mei culture. These are, by no means equal in influence, but I believe they all make an impact on society as a whole.
People have often said that the Gallenteans have no real distinct culture, but I believe that its similarities to RL western society are abundant to the point that we almost can't make the distinction. Just a quick glance at the description of the Federation from the new character intros, we see:
♦ Only true democracy in New Eden
♦ welcomes outsiders
♦ Financially Prosperous
♦ accepting of other cultures and races
♦ Pioneers of artificial intelligence
♦ manned by bravest men in New Eden (especially known in the universe for their bravery)
♦ intolerant of closed societies (Caldari State, Amarr Empire)
♦ Fierce defenders of personal and social liberties
It's pretty obvious here which qualities are similar to ours in the Western world, but the real question is whether these values infect the mindset of characters/players trying to roleplay cultures largely foreign from ours?
Let's take the Amarr Empire under the same circumstances, information gleaned from the introduction and video for their society:
♦ largest and oldest of the four empires
♦ Ruled by a god-empress
♦ theocratic society (<--society, not culture)
♦ committed great evil and selfless acts in the name of their God
♦ society is supported by slave labor (<--cultural descriptor)
♦ Amarrian citizens are often highly educated and fervent individuals
♦ view slavery as a path of spiritual enlightenment
♦ Most stable and powerful nation in New Eden, despite recent setbacks in history
Now, just a brief examination of both of these societies and cultures displays clearly defined characteristics that differentiate the two, which is where we glean our stereotypes from, but there is more to a culture than just these key points. A culture could be defined by language, history, learning style, art, architecture, and most of this is largely based on individual interpretive thinking.
Do we really know (outside of reading some books or chrons) how the Amarrian culture enjoys to laugh? What are their outlooks on life and what are some general ideas about their taste in music? These things may never be answered, but we as "immersioneers" find ourselves asking the question and ultimately taking a plunge in defining what's useful/interesting to us.
So I suppose the question is: What about each of the cultures do you feel is 'westernized' from how it should really be and how true is our style to that of the tiny bits of canon that we're fed?
-
I would like to thank Casiella, Vikarion, and Kaleigh for their most recent posts in this thread. It is a perfect example for Scagga of why I expect so much from the EvE community when it comes to roleplay.
Also, Vikarion, your description of the Caldari is gorgeous and as close to my own ideas about them as I have ever seen.
-
Why don't we try to combine different elements to reflect the EVE Online setting? Surely we cannot be purists, so mixing and matching seems to work fine.
-
uhm nothing much that i can add that has already been discussed, but to me, regardless of similarities with western cultures or not, a "gathering" place within gallente society has at least one or several of the following aspects:
-It is meant for indulgence of one self
-It is meant to display freedom of choice, therefore it must have a large variety of whatever you can ask for
-It is meant to provide high-stake excitments, often in competition against other visitors
-It is meant to invite or harbor the gods/goddesses related to enjoyment, luck, friends, liquour and fortune.
To me that sounds either like a bar, or a casino, either of which adorned with very specific details.
If it has all that, it's good for me, and i am a gallente RPer :P
-
After a bit more thought on the OP, the bar thing is basically the same as in RL. People from *ALL* walks of life and locales tend to mix together in them and they are literally everywhere, so I def wouldn't say there is anything inherently gallente about the ingame bar mentality/setting.
-
One of the things we need to avoid doing is thinking of "alien people". Most cultures, especially technologically advanced ones, have many points of similarity. This is a necessity, not only because of specialization, but also because similar technologies require similar habits. In a society where educated processor-chip manufacturers are needed, its unlikely that one can simply shoe-horn badly-treated slaves into the job.
Instead - as is pointed out in one Chronicle - most Caldari and Gallente live fairly similar lives: they go to work, buy their goods, and relax at home. The differences are in their organizations, and how they think of them. Whereas (this is an example) a Gallentean might think of all corporations as potentially evil, with the government as an ally of the average man, the average Caldari Lai Dai employee probably thinks of his own corporation as pretty good, looks down a bit on its smaller subsidiaries, and looks on Ishukone as naively dangerous competitors. It doesn't cross his mind to want a central government to protect him from his corporation any more than it would cross the mind of the average Gallente to appeal to Creodron for protection from the Federal Navy.
Of course, this isn't uniformly true. There are dissenters in all societies, as well as off-beat elements, quiet and public minorities, and so forth. But the reality is that you need a majority of the people happily living their lives if you don't want to expend the massive effort of creating a police state, and from PF, we know that none of the empires is that (although the Empire can come close). When one tries to exercise perfect control over all elements of society, you end up falling behind technologically.
(Sansha's Nation tries to get around this by "Hey! Cybernetics!", but it seems less than likely that future societies will be able to avoid the "economic freedom = innovation" equation. Note that you can certainly build upon the works of others with a police state - this is precisely how both the Soviet Union and Communist China operated for some time. Note also that Communist China is now an oxymoron and the Soviet Union is no longer with us.)
These sources (PF and observed socio-cultural phenomena in our own world) are why I argue that the State must, by necessity, be free and capitalistically rewarding from an economic standpoint. They are the most technologically advanced empire, and also the most likely to engage in research. Those who would paint it as a corporate police state are ignoring the fact that it doesn't act like one: those who are afraid of the consequences for failure do not take the risks necessary for success.
-
I think I do not understand what the original complaint was, because imo I see molehills, and people talking about mountains.
-
Well, Seriphyn has the problem that a lot of the RPers, especially the Caldari ones, seem to view all of the cultures in Eve as similar to "Western European". My personal argument is that, to a large extent, both the Caldari and Gallente cultures are expressions of clashing western value-sets.
The average American heartland worker, for example, is very, very Civire. Or Deteis. I fit the description of a Deteis to a tee, myself, (minus the part about the State...and...uh, more the female side of it) which is probably why I chose to RP one.
[Insert accusations of Gary-Stu-ism here]
As for the rest of it, it's also been pointed out that all humans do have similar needs, so cultures can't be too different, and, in addition, wealthy people often do behave like irresponsible, spoiled brats (the ones who haven't had to work for it, that is).
Or maybe I just pointed out that last part. Whatever. In any case, why not make mountains out of it? It's fun. :)
-
I think the problem the OP is referring to is the fact that the characters in EVE tend to be the Mary Sues of the players to some extent.
Let me elaborate.
The players themselves have experience of certain kinds of cultural environments and when they interact with total strangers is in such environments, hence the westernized bar setting.
The players themselves tend to have the tendency to want to be entertained by their roleplaying, hence they will engage in idolized activities in aforementioned settings, hence the over sexualized activities by both sexes and overtly aggressive behaviour by some.
I believe this be the symptom of the general practice of roleplayers where the player pretends to be the character, therefore bringing themselves (the player) into the shoes of the character, enhancing the immersion but also bringing in all the baggage that the player has.
While there are some roleplayers that do not engage in such practices, where they actually try to keep the player as far away from the equation as possible, keeping the character at the wheel instead of having the player in the characters shoes.
Two completely different kinds of beasts.
One has the players ego involved in the roleplaying process.
Other does not.
-
The players themselves tend to have the tendency to want to be entertained by their roleplaying, hence they will engage in idolized activities in aforementioned settings, hence the over sexualized activities by both sexes and overtly aggressive behaviour by some.
I believe this be the symptom of the general practice of roleplayers humanity ...
Fixed it for you.
-
Exactly Lallara, but I don't really blame anyone for this, nor do I think lowly of anyone who does. It seems like something that can't be helped.
As an aside, to distance Gallente from the West, it seems the Federation is more of a female-driven society than patriarchal. Ethnic Gallente females are the embodiments of self-empowerment, vibrant with no jobs opened to them, there are more Intaki artists disproportionately who are women, and Jin-Mei women are bigger risk-takers than their male counterparts, who are mostly laid back.
In my opinion, it makes the Gallente more sexier (>_>) but in turn does distance itself from the West. The men would have no need to assert themselves since any source of patriarchy was either abolishd or never existed (Jin-Mei exception to that), whereas women perhaps naturally so (due to smaller size and stature etc.)...the sixth President of the Federation, Arlette Villers, I erroneously referred to as a male, but Arlette is a female name.
If that is hammered around within the RP circles, we might see a considerably different approach to Gallente RP.
-
Well, in regards to the capsuleer 'alcohol problem' we simply need more establishments that offer different services. Beansnakes was a light-hearted attempt at this, and seems to be getting some attention as a 'bog-standard bar alternative, which is good.
Perhaps someone could open some Biodome channels or something?
-
Biodomes are Gallente <_< >_>
-
As an aside, to distance Gallente from the West, it seems the Federation is more of a female-driven society than patriarchal. Ethnic Gallente females are the embodiments of self-empowerment, vibrant with no jobs opened to them, there are more Intaki artists disproportionately who are women, and Jin-Mei women are bigger risk-takers than their male counterparts, who are mostly laid back.
In my opinion, it makes the Gallente more sexier (>_>) but in turn does distance itself from the West. The men would have no need to assert themselves since any source of patriarchy was either abolishd or never existed (Jin-Mei exception to that), whereas women perhaps naturally so (due to smaller size and stature etc.)...the sixth President of the Federation, Arlette Villers, I erroneously referred to as a male, but Arlette is a female name.
If you read the descriptions about gallente men and women:
women: Gallente females are: assertive, creative, lively, and self-empowered.
men: males are driven, ambitious, and opinionated.
I think, out of the rest of the universe, the Federation is the place where you'd find many women in positions of authority, but I don't think there's any indication that there's a majority. However, consider what's happening in the USA these days, and how they're finding that a far greater number of women are getting a higher education while the male population has been lagging behind.
-
This is really just a 'urdoingitrong' discussion, but I what's interesting is to see player perception of these cultures embedded with their own innate bias. For instance, there's really not much to suggest that Amarrians are monogamous or chaste, yet people have inflected that idea upon them. Who's to say they don't love techno?
i think the problem is there's just not enough data to paint a complete picture of any culture and we're left to interpretation. Some people don't like the way others interpret something that may contradict what they've done. If you think the bar is gallentized, rp it and see what happens.
-
This is really just a 'urdoingitrong' discussion, but I what's interesting is to see player perception of these cultures embedded with their own innate bias. For instance, there's really not much to suggest that Amarrians are monogamous or chaste, yet people have inflected that idea upon them. Who's to say they don't love techno?
i think the problem is there's just not enough data to paint a complete picture of any culture and we're left to interpretation. Some people don't like the way others interpret something that may contradict what they've done. If you think the bar is gallentized, rp it and see what happens.
Not to mention that the entirety of Amarr COSMOS is a big story about how totally deviant and debaucherous and naughty Amarrians really are.
-
I think it's a fair statement that we all "RP Gallente" to an extent. As has been pointed out, the Federation is just an overly-liberal version of the Western World, which is where the vast majority of us live.
Perfect example? Me. Sure, Jakiin believes in the whole "Slavery as a path to God" thing, but interprets the scriptures with a very liberal bent (Though "Liberal Amarr" is around "Bush family calls fascist" territory, of course) and tends to believe things that they simply don't call for. Like diplomacy. And rank based on skill rather than birth (To an extent). And that ex-slaves should be treated equally to True Amarr. Etc.
This comes a lot from the fact I live in Canada. You know, the most left wing country that didn't spawn Vikings. So naturally when I'm playing my character I'm going to be pulling him to the left. This is, actually, probably true to an extent of most Amarr RPers, but that's an old argument that most here have heard and one I'm honestly a little on the other side of.
Interestingly, Minmatar roleplay is almost always the aversion of this: They avoid the republic with parliamentary democracy and all that, instead going straight for the revolutionary-esque freedom fighter line. Then again since Minmatar seem to mostly be played by rebels-at-heart, it makes sense that they'd be the ones to decide they don't need to support 'the man' to accomplish their goals.
Where was I? Oh yes.
Basically it does come down to this:
I believe this be the symptom of the general practice of roleplayers where the player pretends to be the character, therefore bringing themselves (the player) into the shoes of the character, enhancing the immersion but also bringing in all the baggage that the player has.
While there are some roleplayers that do not engage in such practices, where they actually try to keep the player as far away from the equation as possible, keeping the character at the wheel instead of having the player in the characters shoes.
I'm very much in the camp of the former, so I will necessarily be less inclined to play a character that's completely foreign to me.
But I have the sneaking suspicion that isn't the point of this topic. If it's just an issue of "Why are all the bars and scenery considered western" it's simple: That's work. It's not even fun work like writing a good story, or slowly positioning your organization as a police force in a primarily low-security region so that you can take 'favours' from the industrialists happy to access the minerals of lowsec with relative safety and build up an empire run on equal parts idealism and naked, unapologetic greed.
Trust me, that's way more interesting than convincing people to sit on cushions and like it.
-
I think, given the size of Eve, it is probably a mistake to assume many things would be universal across a single Empire's 'culture'. There might be certain commonalities that make certain sorts of things very rare in a given empire, but considering you can find a variety of cultural variation across essentially any single modern country (even those traditionally thought of as quite culturally homogeneous) it is a fair bet that across any single world in any of the empires, much less across separate worlds, you could reasonably expect nearly any sort of culture to be manifest.
The fact is we just don't have detailed info on cultural conduct in most situations. In a group of Caldari RPers or Amarr Rpers, I'd be willing to bet that even given that you would see some that people have created and that have become widely accepted.
In more public exchanges, I don't think what you see is 'Gallente' so much as that lack of that other since we don't know about it, so people default to essentially what is 'normal' for them to facilitate interaction.
I would suggest that the Gallente may well have their own interpersonal rituals that aren't portrayed. The Gallente are, after all, not 'The West' or anything else like that. They are a vast empire spanning in all likelihood tens or hundreds of thousands of cultures, all mixed here and there and everywhere in no doubt unpredictable ways.
Taking the example of a bar: Bars are, at some basic level, similar everywhere. There are certainly surface differences, but in the vast majority of cases an establishment where you can buy drinks and socialize can only have so many configurations.
Certainly it would be good for more possible variation to be explored, but there is only so far you can go. The 'Iran' example, for example, relies more on the culture than the bar itself. It's basis is in how people interact. I'm all for people taking into consideration culture when they decide how their characters interact with people around them, but it isn't exactly enforceable. Nor should it be.
-
More importantly: The Gallente are a free, open society. There have been many examples given here from everyone as to certain societies in modern times that have similarities.
The US is hated by most other countries for a lot of reasons, one of the primary reasons that much of the East has a distaste for us (the actual citizens, not the governments) is that they feel we are trying to conquer the globe culturally by pushing our customs on everyone, as well as our beliefs.
Because it's happening. (We're not really trying, it's just happening).
So the fact that there would be small facets of all of the various societies in the game that would resemble Gallente culture in modicum is not exactly something that should be considered odd, strange, or bad.
In fact it should be expected that, due to interaction between all four of the main entities, cultural bleedover happens.
It's an inevitability. We see it now on a much smaller scale with Globalization. Imagine it through an entire cluster when information and goods can travel instantly from system to system.
Molehills, man. Molehills.
-
Interestingly, Minmatar roleplay is almost always the aversion of this: They avoid the republic with parliamentary democracy and all that, instead going straight for the revolutionary-esque freedom fighter line. Then again since Minmatar seem to mostly be played by rebels-at-heart, it makes sense that they'd be the ones to decide they don't need to support 'the man' to accomplish their goals.
Have you heard of Electus Matari? They support the Republic. They're not really "revolutionary-esque freedom fighter"s in my view, and other than Du'uma Fiisi (who are terrorists, not freedom fighters :) ) I'm not sure who the other big Matari Rp groups are, or are you referring to individuals that you meet in pirate bars?
And it's a tribal democracy, isn't it? A very different beast to a parliamentary democracy I would have thought.
-
Interestingly, Minmatar roleplay is almost always the aversion of this: They avoid the republic with parliamentary democracy and all that, instead going straight for the revolutionary-esque freedom fighter line. Then again since Minmatar seem to mostly be played by rebels-at-heart, it makes sense that they'd be the ones to decide they don't need to support 'the man' to accomplish their goals.
Incidentally, I play a Republic loyalist in a loyalist alliance. ;)
I figure the Minmatar would have taken large parts of the basic theoretical model of how to organize a government from the Gallente Federation after the Rebellion, simply because they urgently needed to come up with something pretty quick, and had little governmental traditions of their own.
That said, I believe "democracy" in the Republic is not really like democracy in the Federation or most Western countries, because of the superimposition over the clan/tribal model. To keep even some of their own culture and values during 800 years of captivity (quite a feat, but PF says so! ;) ) I feel the Minmatar would have to have traditions of mouthing off the required phrases in public while simultaneously going about their business just like before in private.
PF hints the real power structure in the Republic is thorough the tribes and clans. I expect the average Minmatar might, for example, vote for the candidate their clan has decided to support or ignore a law if it conflicts his clan custom.
-
Have you heard of Electus Matari? They support the Republic. They're not really "revolutionary-esque freedom fighter"s in my view, and other than Du'uma Fiisi (who are terrorists, not freedom fighters :) ) I'm not sure who the other big Matari Rp groups are, or are you referring to individuals that you meet in pirate bars?
U'K, or whatever their name becomes once they reform, for one. They're big, right?
And it's a tribal democracy, isn't it? A very different beast to a parliamentary democracy I would have thought.
Parliamentary democracy: You vote for an MP who belongs to a party, based usually more on the party than the individual them self. The party then acts a fairly cohesive unit (As opposed to the US form of democracy, where they 'cross the floor' all the time) to accomplish group goals.
Tribal democracy: A tribe gets a number of seats roughly proportionate to their total tribal membership. You can choose to switch between tribes*. The tribe then acts as a fairly cohesive unit to accomplish group goals.
Admittedly, I've not actually seen that 'switching between tribes' stuff in any PF, but that seems to be the accepted truth in the player base since someone apparently pointed out that otherwise the Republic would be at least as racist as the Empire. And of course there's the fact that they apparently vote directly for the Prime Minister? Is that it?
Can... Can you do that? I mean, I'm not up to date on world government outside of Canada/UK/US but doesn't the title Prime Minister imply that they're just the leader of the largest party/coalition?
Incidentally, I play a Republic loyalist in a loyalist alliance. ;)
I figure the Minmatar would have taken large parts of the basic theoretical model of how to organize a government from the Gallente Federation after the Rebellion, simply because they urgently needed to come up with something pretty quick, and had little governmental traditions of their own.
Sounds fair.
That said, I believe "democracy" in the Republic is not really like democracy in the Federation or most Western countries, because of the superimposition over the clan/tribal model. To keep even some of their own culture and values during 800 years of captivity (quite a feat, but PF says so! ;) ) I feel the Minmatar would have to have traditions of mouthing off the required phrases in public while simultaneously going about their business just like before in private.
Possible, would be interesting to see some PF supporting that. I haven't really gone through all the news archives yet.
PF hints the real power structure in the Republic is thorough the tribes and clans. I expect the average Minmatar might, for example, vote for the candidate their clan has decided to support[1] or ignore a law if it conflicts his clan custom.[2]
[1] Pretty common IRL in some places, actually. I have a tendency to look favourably on my preferred party's leader simply because the party I think is all right thinks he's all right. Which is a big reason why I tend to think of the Matari method as being parliamentary: More focus on the parties than the leaders.
[2] "I don't care what the law says, this is British Columbia! In BC you smoke weed!"
"This is not what I was hoping my eleventh birthday party would be like."
"SMOKE IT!"
Bit of an exaggeration, but people do have a tendency all over to ignore laws if it interferes with their customs.
-
U'K, or whatever their name becomes once they reform, for one. They're big, right?
They've mostly joined Circle-of-Two now, as far as I can tell.
No idea whether C-O-2 RP, or whether TCFMOU'K will reform as a Matari corp sometime in the future.
Tribal democracy: A tribe gets a number of seats roughly proportionate to their total tribal membership. You can choose to switch between tribes*. The tribe then acts as a fairly cohesive unit to accomplish group goals.
I wouldn't have said that tribes act as cohesive groups all that much. I play that my clan is competing with other clans in the Sebiestor Tribe for influence, and that favours and relationships are more important than law when it comes to enforcement and working together.
Admittedly, I've not actually seen that 'switching between tribes' stuff in any PF, but that seems to be the accepted truth in the player base since someone apparently pointed out that otherwise the Republic would be at least as racist as the Empire. And of course there's the fact that they apparently vote directly for the Prime Minister? Is that it?
Ummm, I'm not actually clear on what that means.
I've taken the PF to mean that the Matari are a Tribal society, with each tribe made up of clans. The clans are small enough that you know or can find out easily whether someone is in your clan, and that meeting a new tribe member involves a certain amount of social questioning about who they're related to, to find a link.
I play it that Clans adopt people moderately often, at least partially because so many Matari don't actually know which clan they came from. Some Returnees need somewhere to fit in. I think there'll be a lot of clan-less Matari in the cities/stations etc, but at least part of belonging to a clan is having some people who will have your back, and that can be useful.
I would be really surprised to see people leave one clan and join another outside of certain ritual situations like marriage.
Clans being made up of people who are related to you, (by birth, or by adoption or by marriage) means that I don't really see it as "racist" to think that they'd be more likely to support someone from their clan or tribe than a different clan or tribe. I mean, isn't that what being a Tribalist society means?
I'm having difficulty thinking of a coherant argument that they are racist, could you perhaps explain?
-
Admittedly, I've not actually seen that 'switching between tribes' stuff in any PF, but that seems to be the accepted truth in the player base since someone apparently pointed out that otherwise the Republic would be at least as racist as the Empire. And of course there's the fact that they apparently vote directly for the Prime Minister? Is that it?
Can... Can you do that? I mean, I'm not up to date on world government outside of Canada/UK/US but doesn't the title Prime Minister imply that they're just the leader of the largest party/coalition?
Sounds like different Minmatar player communities have quite different ideas about how things work. ;)
The people in the community I play with generally think an average Minmatar would not switch between the tribes, as tribes and clans are based on kinship and PF is clear about kinship being very important to Minmatar.
Personally, I actually see the Minmatar Republic de facto governmental model as a federation despite the name. The tribes have a lot of autonomy, including their own heads of state.
Regarding the Republic and racism, I'd be very surprised if the Republic had no racism at all. 800 years under Amarrian rule would leave marks - the Minmatar culture is probably more influenced by Amarrian culture than they would like to admit. However, I personally theorize that dividing people into different groups in the Republic would generally be based on other factors, for example clan and caste.
Also, as a side note, direct election of a prime minister can happen in RL. For references, please see for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister There are plenty of different govenmental models out there in RL, and Eve ones might be unlike any single one of them. :)
-
In terms of Minmatar, I'm sure the "Western/Gallente" RP influence is not really a problem. Like the Gallente they are individualists, though they are loyal to their tribe of course, a sorta halfway point between Gallente and Caldari. Anyway their culture in terms of pleasure would be similar to the Gallente except more 'rugged' and 'roughly decadent', whereas the Gallente decadence might be more refined and classy. I always imagined the Gallente lower classes' idea of partying would be like the Minmatar, and with most blue collars in the Federation being immigrants, wouldn't be surprised.
Caldari culture are meanwhile collective capitalists. Is there any IRL example of this other than communism? Just goes to show how alien Caldari culture to what we know is. I think Svetlana Scarlet's Dialogues shed some light on that (http://wiki.eveonline.com/en/wiki/The_Caldari_Dialogues).
Coupled to the fact that they are more unscrupulous than the Gallenteans and more combative than the Amarrians, this makes them in many ways the most meddlesome of all the empires
Also...that's interesting...we were always thinking the Gallente are the most meddlesome, but I'm not sure I fully understand this line.
-
I find this a little bit obnoxious, Seriphyn. There have been many Caldari RPers weighing in on this discussion with how they see the State as somewhat western, or even as adopting different facets of western culture. If you disagree with those perspectives, fine, but you might consider addressing them. And as far as being "alien" goes, there are a lot of people in the U.S. for whom much of what Svetlana says about the State is more familiar than what we read about the Federation.
I believe that this continuing drumbeat of "The State is "Japan/unlike anything we know/space nazis/has no western values" is part of a continuing campaign to drive people away from Caldari RP. Now, all's fair in Eve, certainly, but it does make these discussions look a bit disingenuous, especially when it starts being so blatant about it.
The Caldari are collectivist socially, and capitalistic economically. It's poor terminology, to be certain, but the essence of it is along the lines of "win, but not at the cost of everyone else". It's a cultural attempt to put limits on the human drive towards personal aggrandizement above all else. It encompasses such things as patriotism, "family values", not disrupting the group, and so forth. We know that some individuality is permitted, from later PF and even from in-game sources. But it isn't individuality to the level of "I'm going to replace parts of my body for fun, and then lead a movement about it". And there is dissent, but not at the level of open rebellion.
In short, we're not going to RP the way you say we have to. PF doesn't support the image of a culture so alien we can't relate to it. Indeed, it's precisely because I related to the PF of the State the most that I chose it as my first character's faction.
-
I believe that this continuing drumbeat of "The State is "Japan/unlike anything we know/space nazis/has no western values" is part of a continuing campaign to drive people away from Caldari RP.
Of course not. It's what attracts people to Caldari RP, the fact it's so different. A lot of us RP for escapism after all. And if people really wanted to RP Western values, then they would RP the Gallente instead...and then, why are there more Caldari RPers than Gallente? People have explicitly said they do not want to RP IRL, which they see as the Gallente...
It's not a conspiracy theory, everyone's out to get the Caldari etc. It's what makes them what I think the most unique faction in EVE. Gallente is a generic space democracy, Minmatar is Africa-in-space, and Amarr are cosmic catholics...the fact it is nearly impossible to put a generic stereotype on the Caldari makes them so...even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites.
If you really find that obnoxious, might want to bring it up with Svetlana...
[14:12] <Svetlana> You can't think like a Westerner and really get into the head of a Caldari, I think.
Just echoing that...
-
I don't think anyone here consciously tries to drive everyone away from a given faction OOCly. Sure, when I have friends that look into playing EVE, I suggest Minmatar, because I like it and I'll be able to lend them more advice about both game mechanics and RP. Secondarily, I recommend Caldari, BECAUSE OF DRAKE, but I don't know nearly as much about the PF there.
Seriphyn does have a tendency upon which many of us have commented with friendly suggestions (because I do think Seri's an awesome guy), which is to try to view EVE in terms of pure RL allegories. So when he calls Caldari "space Nazis" and whatnot, I don't perceive it as libel or anything. It's just the way he tries to interpret EVE, similar to seeing the Intaki as "the Subcontinent in space". I don't think he's correct, mind, but it's a very different and non-malicious sort of "error".
-
Of course not. It's what attracts people to Caldari RP, the fact it's so different. A lot of us RP for escapism after all. And if people really wanted to RP Western values, then they would RP the Gallente instead...and then, why are there more Caldari RPers than Gallente? People have explicitly said they do not want to RP IRL, which they see as the Gallente...
Actually, I'm rather sure it isn't anything as "complex" as that. The Gallente seem effeminate and weak, and oh-God-forbid French too, while the Caldari are the hard-assed underdogs who triumphed against all odds. That's why more people go Caldari. Roleplayers in general might be inclined to think more deeply about it, but I bet that's still the main attraction. Just look at most computer game protagonists. From Kratos to Jim Raynor, from Commander Shepard to every other badass out there... these guys are more Caldari than Gallente.
Of course, that characterization is wildly simplifying how the Caldari really are / should be, but that's how they come across initially.
-
I'm largely expecting Incarna to do away with the effeminate Gallentean stereotype, judging by the prototype designs of Gallente males.
Looking forward if that is the case, to seeing what the cultural perception changes to.
-
even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites
I would suggest that "Space Nazis" could only possibly apply in any way to one entity, and it's not any of the Empires.
-
Seriphyn does have a tendency upon which many of us have commented with friendly suggestions (because I do think Seri's an awesome guy), which is to try to view EVE in terms of pure RL allegories. So when he calls Caldari "space Nazis" and whatnot, I don't perceive it as libel or anything. It's just the way he tries to interpret EVE, similar to seeing the Intaki as "the Subcontinent in space". I don't think he's correct, mind, but it's a very different and non-malicious sort of "error".
Probably due to my preference to Earth-based sci-fi than completely original. Also, due to the fact that CCP hasn't given much info on, say, the Jin-Mei, sorta forced the concept of a futuristic medieval China, and go from there. Hell, you can take a lot from the caste system. In one of my (few) stories, a Jin-Mei nation, the Xy Jang Commune, only ever elects Sang Do (and rarely Saan Go) politicians, despite the fact that universal suffrage is in place according to the Constitution, but Jing Ko are never elected.
But yeah, there's no 'drive to scare away people from Caldari'. People RP Amarrian slavers and Sansha for crying out loud, lol. Though I did find the 'mass slave lynching' during the Elder War a little tasteless, but I guess I'm a bit sensitive there
Actually, I'm rather sure it isn't anything as "complex" as that. The Gallente seem effeminate and weak, and oh-God-forbid French too, while the Caldari are the hard-assed underdogs who triumphed against all odds. That's why more people go Caldari. Roleplayers in general might be inclined to think more deeply about it, but I bet that's still the main attraction. Just look at most computer game protagonists. From Kratos to Jim Raynor, from Commander Shepard to every other badass out there... these guys are more Caldari than Gallente.
Of course, that characterization is wildly simplifying how the Caldari really are / should be, but that's how they come across initially.
This has been curtailed in recent years, especially with the infodump about the Black Eagles. Gallente have massive scope for Blackwater-style RP, that Strix did, and other underhanded business. Seri is a little Commander Shepard too, because, from how it looks, all militaries seem to follow the same sort of 'culture'. I doubt the Amarrian Navy go "Purge that heathen on the second floor balcony!" for example. But yeah, since TEA, CCP have done a good job of taking away that damned Frenchie stereotype, like the QR trailer.
even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites
I would suggest that "Space Nazis" could only possibly apply in any way to one entity, and it's not any of the Empires.
Yes, yes, Sansha etc. :P
-
It's a valid comparison, and it's really the only case that comparison is valid, also it's still somewhat tenuous.
This entire thread smacks of one big "You're doing it wrong and should do it my way. Stop it." anyway.
It's really nonsense, this is a massive cluster with trillions of people in it in a bunch of hybrid cultures that regularly intermingle.
The concept that things should be homogenous within a single culture and that culture should be drastically different from other cultures is both appalling and nonsensical.
Seriously.
-
I give example of the original point.
In fall 2009, there was a big beach party in the Three Sisters. It was really good, great fun, but it was all very decadent and depraved (which was part of the fun). Topless girls running around, wet tshirts etc.
Now, as a RP event, fantastic, everyone enjoyed themselves. But as a RP event apart of the general EVE story and fictional, you had more non-Gallenteans than Gallente, but everyone was pretty much RPing Gallentean, or Minmatar too perhaps. I can't remember the count, but there was plenty of Caldari and Amarr, and I doubt you would find either of them participating in such lewdness.
but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.
The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.
-
While I can't speak for every Caldari RPer, the majority of the ones I've spoken with and interacted with do not accept either Svetlana's conclusions, or yours.
One of the myths being perpetuated in Eve is that the Gallente "are western civilization", and that any other empire possessing elements of western culture is "RPing wrong".
One of the problems with trying to adapt an asian/Japanese view on the Caldari is that that view is a myth. Bushido, honor, etc, as concepts of the Japanese mindset were largely created and inflated by the pre-WW2 Japanese government. Did they exist before that? Certainly. But the perception of them as guiding lights for the culture was the result of the militarist takeover of the government.
There's also the fact that the Caldari just don't "act" Japanese, or Chinese. I'm not sure how to exactly state this, but when you examine those cultures as they are today and were in the past, there are more differences than if you compare it with, say, the United States. Indeed, in terms of values, I would argue that the State and the U.S. are still both very "survival-values" oriented, which indeed explains to some extent why both cultures, fictional and real, are very militant and very focused on economic power.
*Interesting side-note*
Some of those who see the United States as being similar to Western Europe are genuinely mistaken: they see Hollywood and our loudmouths, without understanding that 75% of the rest of us think that we should export those people. It's also true that ten or twelve states are much more "european" in value-sets than the other 38. But if one discards the media presence and actually spends time with the people in the country, one comes to the realization that the average U.S. citizen is nowhere close, culturally, to most europeans. In my personal experience, we're far more aggressive, industrious (to the point of killing ourselves), and economically motivated. Oh, and far more uniform - I should know, when I goth up, I get a lot of comments. :P Of course, these are general observations.
*End side-note*
Now, this isn't to say that the United States equals the State. What I'm trying to point out here are two different facts: first, that you can't lump all western cultures together, as some of them are radically different, and second, that the State and its values are much closer to those of the mainstream U.S. than any other country, including fictionalized Japan.
As an experiment some time, try turning on Rush Limbaugh some time. Substitute "Gallente" for "Liberal", and you can easily imagine him as a Lai Dai media personality. Or imagine, say, Bones, with Brennan as a Deteis and Booth as a Civire (fits, doesn't it?) doing investigations for Ishukone Watch. Or "House"...a show that constantly emphasizes solutions and efficiency over being "nice". Indeed, if you examine most elements of successful American television dramas or movies, almost all seem to have reoccurring themes of diligence being rewarded, of sacrifice by the individual for the whole, of being "good" rather than being "nice", of competition, etc.
These values hearken back to the origin of the country as groups of people escaping from hostile or incompetent regimes into an untamed wilderness, where one wrong move could result in not only your own death, but that of your entire group. (Look up the Donner party. Do it!) The struggle to survive after leaving everything you've known imprinted itself deeply on our national psyche, and to this day that perception continues to be reinforced by continuing immigration. So, when I look for examples on how a futuristic capitalistic "survival-values" culture might act, I tend to look at my own capitalistic "survival values" culture.
It's interesting to note, in ending, that both cultures are having a bit of a problem where this mind-set isn't serving them perfectly. The U.S. is discovering that it may actually need to not utilize survival values in foreign relations, and at home we have a debate raging about how we balance those values with more egalitarian views. The State experienced trouble at home and abroad, and like the U.S., decided to utilize violence as a means of solving the situation. Now, for both nations, doing so isn't necessarily wrong, but sometimes it's the less effective option. As a result, both entities are experiencing internal turmoil and debate over the courses of action they've taken.
-
I give example of the original point.
In fall 2009, there was a big beach party in the Three Sisters. It was really good, great fun, but it was all very decadent and depraved (which was part of the fun). Topless girls running around, wet tshirts etc.
Now, as a RP event, fantastic, everyone enjoyed themselves. But as a RP event apart of the general EVE story and fictional, you had more non-Gallenteans than Gallente, but everyone was pretty much RPing Gallentean, or Minmatar too perhaps. I can't remember the count, but there was plenty of Caldari and Amarr, and I doubt you would find either of them participating in such lewdness.
but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.
The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.
Except, as Vik pointed out with his example of how the world views Americans and how Americans actually are, your preconceived notions are invalid, because they are brought with a particular bias that assumes that the people within an entity are homogenous, which is exactly what I was stating and your reply in no way addressed. I stated what I saw as an issue with your argument, you restated your argument without in any way addressing what I stated.
Good show.
-
but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.
The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.
Every culture on earth has had heroes, individuals who lifted themselves above the masses. That isn't Gallente, that's human. You can't take a universal human trait, and then say that anyone who demonstrates it belongs to a specific culture.
I view the Federation as largely an oligarchy - leaders generally arise out of a pool of influential persons, and then are peddled to a largely disinterested population. It also has a rather large welfare state (from PF) to help maintain that state of affairs (nothing like an upset populace, right Heth?), and subsidies for influential corporations to ensure that they are more than competitive with foreign firms (from TEA).
The defining trait of the Federation, however, seems to be over-indulgence - well, from a Caldari point of view. But that same focus on pleasure and hedonism also creates incredible beauty: Caldari dramas and products are created to sell, while Gallente can take the time and effort to craft works of art, like the Crystal Boulevard. And it can't be argued that the Gallente care about people besides their own: they did, after all, aid the Minmatar.
-
Just a few quick comments.
While the idea that America and the Caldari share the idea that they moved to a new land and started over with survival values dominating is certainly right in my view, they went about it in very different ways. The Caldari become collectivist in a sense that is more Asian-minded and the Americans became very much individualistic. That's a big and remarkable difference.
Also, just as it is dangerous to lump all of the United States into a single monolith country, so it is with Europe - even more so actually because of the longer inherited identities involved in European polities. One easy way to divide Europe is to consider the north and south very different in values, but for some countries (such as the French) that may be a bit too simplistic of a view. Just saying that telling a northern European that they ain't industrious is a bit of an insult - though I'll take that from an American, considering that country's economic importance in the world. ;)
-
Except, as Vik pointed out with his example of how the world views Americans and how Americans actually are, your preconceived notions are invalid, because they are brought with a particular bias that assumes that the people within an entity are homogenous, which is exactly what I was stating and your reply in no way addressed. I stated what I saw as an issue with your argument, you restated your argument without in any way addressing what I stated.
Good show.
Ignoring snarkiness, would you still find an Amarrian holder at a Gallente bar running around spinning her blouse over her head? I should though perhaps spend more time with the Amarr bloc. Upper class, snooty and that, if they'd spare the time to interact with Seriphyn. From a personal point of view, sure, people can RP however the hell they want, but I'd like to find some folk to be more immersed with.
If you check out this story here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=827.0), this is an example of how you can worldbuild in the Federation, which has the biggest scope for it.
Any EVE culture + Gallente democracy = Original Federal setting
-
I'm not entirely sure that Amarrians have the same taboos about sex and such that we project on them. I'm no expert on the matter, of course, but I suspect there's significant variation there. Just like IRL, drawing from my own cultural experience, we have "naughty Catholic schoolgirl" stereotypes, and if you've never seen what supposedly "evangelical" youths will do when they want to party... yeah. It doesn't exactly fit what their leadership might like, because they think they're immortal and only hang on to traditional morals when it suits them.
-
One also has to consider the impact of a new cultural influence on pilots: the capsuleer and spacebound society in itself, which brings a whole new breed of standards, expectations, and moral boundaries. I think we as capsuleers have created a whole new culture which blends many of each culture's values together. In that sense I can see how the influence of gallente multi-ethnicism may have been adapted for capsuleers, just as 'corporatism' (from the state) has taken on our structure of business.
-
Ignoring snarkiness, would you still find an Amarrian holder at a Gallente bar running around spinning her blouse over her head? I should though perhaps spend more time with the Amarr bloc. Upper class, snooty and that, if they'd spare the time to interact with Seriphyn. From a personal point of view, sure, people can RP however the hell they want, but I'd like to find some folk to be more immersed with.
Even if you ignore what Kal just said, you need to remember that the Amarr are based on the Byzantines to a degree. Byzantine and Roman (the Byzantines being the more Orthodox of the roman split, as compared to the HRE which was less Orthodox Roman by a long shot) are well known for their Decadent lifestyles. Vomitoriums? Sexual relations with young boys? Animals? Any of those sound familiar? (For the record this wasn't just the Romans and Byzantines, the Egyptians, Carthaginians, Celts, and many other early societies committed a number of these practices)
The fact that people have a twisted view on what the society's the Amarr are based upon were really like based on the ways things are taught (with a slant towards modern moral bases) doesn't make their twisted view true. As much as we want to consider our society as being incredibly liberal in comparison to the past -- and in many ways it is -- from a sexual perspective we are hugely conservative in comparison to many of our ancestors.
Hugely so.
-
Even if you ignore what Kal just said, you need to remember that the Amarr are based on the Byzantines to a degree.
I see this presented more and more these days. I know a bit about the Byzantines. I'm gonna put y'all on the spot and ask for sources pointing to connections.
-
[admin]Unlocked, split the Amarr discussion here (http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=829.0)Hope everyone keeps the guidelines in mind. While the OP is a bit borderline, I think there is some worthwhile discussion being had. I'm glad that to a large degree people seem to be exercising self-moderation, and explaining their views rather than dwelling on someone else 'doing it wrong'. [/admin]
-
Personally, I don't like to compare fictional cultures and societies to real ones because when you get to the heart of the matter, beyond many of the general characteristics there are simply too many differences to really bridge that connection. And ultimately what happens is we form those bridges ourselves, adding characteristics into the fictional world based on its societal comparison until they really ARE the same.
I think what a great building exercise in this little study would be to identify some major factors in what really influences a civilization, and from those characteristics, document those influences and build something from that instead of saying, "well these guys are pretty Norwegian, look at the nose!"
-
Personally, I don't like to compare fictional cultures and societies to real ones because when you get to the heart of the matter, beyond many of the general characteristics there are simply too many differences to really bridge that connection. And ultimately what happens is we form those bridges ourselves, adding characteristics into the fictional world based on its societal comparison until they really ARE the same.
I think what a great building exercise in this little study would be to identify some major factors in what really influences a civilization, and from those characteristics, document those influences and build something from that instead of saying, "well these guys are pretty Norwegian, look at the nose!"
Could not have said it better myself.