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[Ulphus]

U'K, or whatever their name becomes once they reform, for one. They're big, right?

They've mostly joined Circle-of-Two now, as far as I can tell.

No idea whether C-O-2 RP, or whether TCFMOU'K will reform as a Matari corp sometime in the future.

Tribal democracy: A tribe gets a number of seats roughly proportionate to their total tribal membership. You can choose to switch between tribes*. The tribe then acts as a fairly cohesive unit to accomplish group goals.

I wouldn't have said that tribes act as cohesive groups all that much. I play that my clan is competing with other clans in the Sebiestor Tribe for influence, and that favours and relationships are more important than law when it comes to enforcement and working together.

Admittedly, I've not actually seen that 'switching between tribes' stuff in any PF, but that seems to be the accepted truth in the player base since someone apparently pointed out that otherwise the Republic would be at least as racist as the Empire. And of course there's the fact that they apparently vote directly for the Prime Minister? Is that it?

Ummm, I'm not actually clear on what that means.

I've taken the PF to mean that the Matari are a Tribal society, with each tribe made up of clans. The clans are small enough that you know or can find out easily whether someone is in your clan, and that meeting a new tribe member involves a certain amount of social questioning about who they're related to, to find a link.

I play it that Clans adopt people moderately often, at least partially because so many Matari don't actually know which clan they came from. Some Returnees need somewhere to fit in. I think there'll be a lot of clan-less Matari in the cities/stations etc, but at least part of belonging to a clan is having some people who will have your back, and that can be useful.

I would be really surprised to see people leave one clan and join another outside of certain ritual situations like marriage.

Clans being made up of people who are related to you, (by birth, or by adoption or by marriage) means that I don't really see it as "racist" to think that they'd be more likely to support someone from their clan or tribe than a different clan or tribe. I mean, isn't that what being a Tribalist society means?

I'm having difficulty thinking of a coherant argument that they are racist, could you perhaps explain?

[Isobel Mitar]

Admittedly, I've not actually seen that 'switching between tribes' stuff in any PF, but that seems to be the accepted truth in the player base since someone apparently pointed out that otherwise the Republic would be at least as racist as the Empire. And of course there's the fact that they apparently vote directly for the Prime Minister? Is that it?

Can... Can you do that? I mean, I'm not up to date on world government outside of Canada/UK/US but doesn't the title Prime Minister imply that they're just the leader of the largest party/coalition?

Sounds like different Minmatar player communities have quite different ideas about how things work.

The people in the community I play with generally think an average Minmatar would not switch between the tribes, as tribes and clans are based on kinship and PF is clear about kinship being very important to Minmatar.

Personally, I actually see the Minmatar Republic de facto governmental model as a federation despite the name. The tribes have a lot of autonomy, including their own heads of state.

Regarding the Republic and racism, I'd be very surprised if the Republic had no racism at all. 800 years under Amarrian rule would leave marks - the Minmatar culture is probably more influenced by Amarrian culture than they would like to admit. However, I personally theorize that dividing people into different groups in the Republic would generally be based on other factors, for example clan and caste.

Also, as a side note, direct election of a prime minister can happen in RL. For references, please see for example: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prime_Minister  There are plenty of different govenmental models out there in RL, and Eve ones might be unlike any single one of them. 

[Seriphyn]

In terms of Minmatar, I'm sure the "Western/Gallente" RP influence is not really a problem. Like the Gallente they are individualists, though they are loyal to their tribe of course, a sorta halfway point between Gallente and Caldari. Anyway their culture in terms of pleasure would be similar to the Gallente except more 'rugged' and 'roughly decadent', whereas the Gallente decadence might be more refined and classy. I always imagined the Gallente lower classes' idea of partying would be like the Minmatar, and with most blue collars in the Federation being immigrants, wouldn't be surprised.

Caldari culture are meanwhile collective capitalists. Is there any IRL example of this other than communism? Just goes to show how alien Caldari culture to what we know is. I think Svetlana Scarlet's Dialogues shed some light on that.

Coupled to the fact that they are more unscrupulous than the Gallenteans and more combative than the Amarrians, this makes them in many ways the most meddlesome of all the empires

Also...that's interesting...we were always thinking the Gallente are the most meddlesome, but I'm not sure I fully understand this line.

[Vikarion]

I find this a little bit obnoxious, Seriphyn. There have been many  Caldari RPers weighing in on this discussion with how they see the State as somewhat western, or even as adopting different facets of western culture. If you disagree with those perspectives, fine, but you might consider addressing them. And as far as being "alien" goes, there are a lot of people in the U.S. for whom much of what Svetlana says about the State is more familiar than what we read about the Federation.

I believe that this continuing drumbeat of "The State is "Japan/unlike anything we know/space nazis/has no western values" is part of a continuing campaign to drive people away from Caldari RP. Now, all's fair in Eve, certainly, but it does make these discussions look a bit disingenuous, especially when it starts being so blatant about it.

The Caldari are collectivist socially, and capitalistic economically. It's poor terminology, to be certain, but the essence of it is along the lines of "win, but not at the cost of everyone else". It's a cultural attempt to put limits on the human drive towards personal aggrandizement above all else. It encompasses such things as patriotism, "family values", not disrupting the group, and so forth. We know that some individuality is permitted, from later PF and even from in-game sources. But it isn't individuality to the level of "I'm going to replace parts of my body for fun, and then lead a movement about it". And there is dissent, but not at the level of open rebellion.

In short, we're not going to RP the way you say we have to. PF doesn't support the image of a culture so alien we can't relate to it. Indeed, it's precisely because I related to the PF of the State the most that I chose it as my first character's faction.

[Seriphyn]

I believe that this continuing drumbeat of "The State is "Japan/unlike anything we know/space nazis/has no western values" is part of a continuing campaign to drive people away from Caldari RP.

Of course not. It's what attracts people to Caldari RP, the fact it's so different. A lot of us RP for escapism after all. And if people really wanted to RP Western values, then they would RP the Gallente instead...and then, why are there more Caldari RPers than Gallente? People have explicitly said they do not want to RP IRL, which they see as the Gallente...

It's not a conspiracy theory, everyone's out to get the Caldari etc. It's what makes them what I think the most unique faction in EVE. Gallente is a generic space democracy, Minmatar is Africa-in-space, and Amarr are cosmic catholics...the fact it is nearly impossible to put a generic stereotype on the Caldari makes them so...even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites.

If you really find that obnoxious, might want to bring it up with Svetlana...

[14:12] <Svetlana> You can't think like a Westerner and really get into the head of a Caldari, I think.

Just echoing that...

[Casiella]

I don't think anyone here consciously tries to drive everyone away from a given faction OOCly. Sure, when I have friends that look into playing EVE, I suggest Minmatar, because I like it and I'll be able to lend them more advice about both game mechanics and RP. Secondarily, I recommend Caldari, BECAUSE OF DRAKE, but I don't know nearly as much about the PF there.

Seriphyn does have a tendency upon which many of us have commented with friendly suggestions (because I do think Seri's an awesome guy), which is to try to view EVE in terms of pure RL allegories. So when he calls Caldari "space Nazis" and whatnot, I don't perceive it as libel or anything. It's just the way he tries to interpret EVE, similar to seeing the Intaki as "the Subcontinent in space". I don't think he's correct, mind, but it's a very different and non-malicious sort of "error".

[GoGo Yubari]

Of course not. It's what attracts people to Caldari RP, the fact it's so different. A lot of us RP for escapism after all. And if people really wanted to RP Western values, then they would RP the Gallente instead...and then, why are there more Caldari RPers than Gallente? People have explicitly said they do not want to RP IRL, which they see as the Gallente...

Actually, I'm rather sure it isn't anything as "complex" as that. The Gallente seem effeminate and weak, and oh-God-forbid French too, while the Caldari are the hard-assed underdogs who triumphed against all odds. That's why more people go Caldari. Roleplayers in general might be inclined to think more deeply about it, but I bet that's still the main attraction. Just look at most computer game protagonists. From Kratos to Jim Raynor, from Commander Shepard to every other badass out there... these guys are more Caldari than Gallente.

Of course, that characterization is wildly simplifying how the Caldari really are / should be, but that's how they come across initially.

[Ghost Hunter]

I'm largely expecting Incarna to do away with the effeminate Gallentean stereotype, judging by the prototype designs of Gallente males.

Looking forward if that is the case, to seeing what the cultural perception changes to.

[Lillith Blackheart]

even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites

I would suggest that "Space Nazis" could only possibly apply in any way to one entity, and it's not any of the Empires.

[Seriphyn]

Seriphyn does have a tendency upon which many of us have commented with friendly suggestions (because I do think Seri's an awesome guy), which is to try to view EVE in terms of pure RL allegories. So when he calls Caldari "space Nazis" and whatnot, I don't perceive it as libel or anything. It's just the way he tries to interpret EVE, similar to seeing the Intaki as "the Subcontinent in space". I don't think he's correct, mind, but it's a very different and non-malicious sort of "error".

Probably due to my preference to Earth-based sci-fi than completely original. Also, due to the fact that CCP hasn't given much info on, say, the Jin-Mei, sorta forced the concept of a futuristic medieval China, and go from there. Hell, you can take a lot from the caste system. In one of my (few) stories, a Jin-Mei nation, the Xy Jang Commune, only ever elects Sang Do (and rarely Saan Go) politicians, despite the fact that universal suffrage is in place according to the Constitution, but Jing Ko are never elected.

But yeah, there's no 'drive to scare away people from Caldari'. People RP Amarrian slavers and Sansha for crying out loud, lol. Though I did find the 'mass slave lynching' during the Elder War a little tasteless, but I guess I'm a bit sensitive there

Actually, I'm rather sure it isn't anything as "complex" as that. The Gallente seem effeminate and weak, and oh-God-forbid French too, while the Caldari are the hard-assed underdogs who triumphed against all odds. That's why more people go Caldari. Roleplayers in general might be inclined to think more deeply about it, but I bet that's still the main attraction. Just look at most computer game protagonists. From Kratos to Jim Raynor, from Commander Shepard to every other badass out there... these guys are more Caldari than Gallente.

Of course, that characterization is wildly simplifying how the Caldari really are / should be, but that's how they come across initially.

This has been curtailed in recent years, especially with the infodump about the Black Eagles. Gallente have massive scope for Blackwater-style RP, that Strix did, and other underhanded business. Seri is a little Commander Shepard too, because, from how it looks, all militaries seem to follow the same sort of 'culture'. I doubt the Amarrian Navy go "Purge that heathen on the second floor balcony!" for example. But yeah, since TEA, CCP have done a good job of taking away that damned Frenchie stereotype, like the QR trailer.

even 'Space Nazis' is errorneous outside of Hethites

I would suggest that "Space Nazis" could only possibly apply in any way to one entity, and it's not any of the Empires.

Yes, yes, Sansha etc.

[Lillith Blackheart]

It's a valid comparison, and it's really the only case that comparison is valid, also it's still somewhat tenuous.

This entire thread smacks of one big "You're doing it wrong and should do it my way. Stop it." anyway.

It's really nonsense, this is a massive cluster with trillions of people in it in a bunch of hybrid cultures that regularly intermingle.

The concept that things should be homogenous within a single culture and that culture should be drastically different from other cultures is both appalling and nonsensical.

Seriously.

[Seriphyn]

I give example of the original point.

In fall 2009, there was a big beach party in the Three Sisters. It was really good, great fun, but it was all very decadent and depraved (which was part of the fun). Topless girls running around, wet tshirts etc.

Now, as a RP event, fantastic, everyone enjoyed themselves. But as a RP event apart of the general EVE story and fictional, you had more non-Gallenteans than Gallente, but everyone was pretty much RPing Gallentean, or Minmatar too perhaps. I can't remember the count, but there was plenty of Caldari and Amarr, and I doubt you would find either of them participating in such lewdness.

but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.

The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.

[Vikarion]

While I can't speak for every Caldari RPer, the majority of the ones I've spoken with and interacted with do not accept either Svetlana's conclusions, or yours.

One of the myths being perpetuated in Eve is that the Gallente "are western civilization", and that any other empire possessing elements of western culture is "RPing wrong".

One of the problems with trying to adapt an asian/Japanese view on the Caldari is that that view is a myth. Bushido, honor, etc, as concepts of the Japanese mindset were largely created and inflated by the pre-WW2 Japanese government. Did they exist before that? Certainly. But the perception of them as guiding lights for the culture was the result of the militarist takeover of the government.

There's also the fact that the Caldari just don't "act" Japanese, or Chinese. I'm not sure how to exactly state this, but when you examine those cultures as they are today and were in the past, there are more differences than if you compare it with, say, the United States. Indeed, in terms of values, I would argue that the State and the U.S. are still both very "survival-values" oriented, which indeed explains to some extent why both cultures, fictional and real, are very militant and very focused on economic power.

*Interesting side-note*
Some of those who see the United States as being similar to Western Europe are genuinely mistaken: they see Hollywood and our loudmouths, without understanding that 75% of the rest of us think that we should export those people. It's also true that ten or twelve states are much more "european" in value-sets than the other 38. But if one discards the media presence and actually spends time with the people in the country, one comes to the realization that the average U.S. citizen is nowhere close, culturally, to most europeans. In my personal experience, we're far more aggressive, industrious (to the point of killing ourselves), and economically motivated. Oh, and far more uniform - I should know, when I goth up, I get a lot of comments.   Of course, these are general observations.
*End side-note*

Now, this isn't to say that the United States equals the State. What I'm trying to point out here are two different facts: first, that you can't lump all western cultures together, as some of them are radically different, and second, that the State and its values are much closer to those of the mainstream U.S. than any other country, including fictionalized Japan.

As an experiment some time, try turning on Rush Limbaugh some time. Substitute "Gallente" for "Liberal", and you can easily imagine him as a Lai Dai media personality. Or imagine, say, Bones, with Brennan as a Deteis and Booth as a Civire (fits, doesn't it?) doing investigations for Ishukone Watch. Or "House"...a show that constantly emphasizes solutions and efficiency over being "nice". Indeed, if you examine most elements of successful American television dramas or movies, almost all seem to have reoccurring themes of diligence being rewarded, of sacrifice by the individual for the whole, of being "good" rather than being "nice", of competition, etc.

These values hearken back to the origin of the country as groups of people escaping from hostile or incompetent regimes into an untamed wilderness, where one wrong move could result in not only your own death, but that of your entire group. (Look up the Donner party. Do it!) The struggle to survive after leaving everything you've known imprinted itself deeply on our national psyche, and to this day that perception continues to be reinforced by continuing immigration. So, when I look for examples on how a futuristic capitalistic "survival-values" culture might act, I tend to look at my own capitalistic "survival values" culture.

It's interesting to note, in ending, that both cultures are having a bit of a problem where this mind-set isn't serving them perfectly. The U.S. is discovering that it may actually need to not utilize survival values in foreign relations, and at home we have a debate raging about how we balance those values with more egalitarian views. The State experienced trouble at home and abroad, and like the U.S., decided to utilize violence as a means of solving the situation. Now, for both nations, doing so isn't necessarily wrong, but sometimes it's the less effective option. As a result, both entities are experiencing internal turmoil and debate over the courses of action they've taken.

[Lillith Blackheart]

I give example of the original point.

In fall 2009, there was a big beach party in the Three Sisters. It was really good, great fun, but it was all very decadent and depraved (which was part of the fun). Topless girls running around, wet tshirts etc.

Now, as a RP event, fantastic, everyone enjoyed themselves. But as a RP event apart of the general EVE story and fictional, you had more non-Gallenteans than Gallente, but everyone was pretty much RPing Gallentean, or Minmatar too perhaps. I can't remember the count, but there was plenty of Caldari and Amarr, and I doubt you would find either of them participating in such lewdness.

but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.

The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.

Except, as Vik pointed out with his example of how the world views Americans and how Americans actually are, your preconceived notions are invalid, because they are brought with a particular bias that assumes that the people within an entity are homogenous, which is exactly what I was stating and your reply in no way addressed. I stated what I saw as an issue with your argument, you restated your argument without in any way addressing what I stated.

Good show.

[Vikarion]

but it's fine, the RP Event was great, but I'm using it as an example of what I was saying. IC-wise, as far as Seri was concerned, he saw it as an example of 'Gallentean cultural dominance' and how 'everyone is Gallente at heart'.

The notion that a capsuleer being unbound to no one and nothing but themselves could be seen as Gallente, and another explanation.

Every culture on earth has had heroes, individuals who lifted themselves above the masses. That isn't Gallente, that's human. You can't take a universal human trait, and then say that anyone who demonstrates it belongs to a specific culture.

I view the Federation as largely an oligarchy - leaders generally arise out of a pool of influential persons, and then are peddled to a largely disinterested population. It also has a rather large welfare state (from PF) to help maintain that state of affairs (nothing like an upset populace, right Heth?), and subsidies for influential corporations to ensure that they are more than competitive with foreign firms (from TEA).

The defining trait of the Federation, however, seems to be over-indulgence - well, from a Caldari point of view. But that same focus on pleasure and hedonism also creates incredible beauty: Caldari dramas and products are created to sell, while Gallente can take the time and effort to craft works of art, like the Crystal Boulevard. And it can't be argued that the Gallente care about people besides their own: they did, after all, aid the Minmatar.