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[Valadeus]

Also, I don't think he's lauded for killing Gallente, but for giving up his life to save the Caldari race from what was perceived as a serious threat of extinction.

Further, the topic is Slavery in the State.

You are correct, it was not a titan, it was simply a larger ship. Thanks for the clarification.

Also, I know why the Caldari praise him but I was demonstrating that what the Caldari see as a heroic sacrifice can be seen by outsiders as a military massacre of civilian life (which is true).

Further, the topic may be called "slavery in the State" but you'll notice the conversation is and has been about the general "darker" parts of the State, so I was quite clearly staying on topic.

[Valadeus]

OOC turned sour between us for different reasons Lyn, but I think we've since put them aside.

I think we largely just had trouble communicating with one another more than anything.

I certainly don't have anything against you.

I know this post is off topic, but I felt I needed to clarify that.

[Lyn Farel]

They did ? Oh well, I never had anything against you especially. I liked Malcolm, and I liked you OOCly as well. You are amicable and nice with people. So well... I thought the clash came from my... indelicacies in pushing even further the disagreement with the caldari clique like an ass. vOv

[orange]

since before most caldari were just as I said, corporate drones/cogs

I missed something; what changed to indicate that most Caldari are not corporate wage-slaves?

[Lyn Farel]

I would have to parse the Caldari demographics again, but it's hinted everywhere that their lives suddenly became the second highest to the highest standard in the cluster, that they enjoyed a lot of freedom as long as it remained into the limits imposed by their corporation, and that basically turned in my eyes the Caldari megas into social loving entities.

[The Rook]

It is a system that is extremely good to/for people that want to be part of the machine and terribly bad to/for people who do not want to be part of it and as such wouldn't work equally well - or at all - for different societies.

[Lyn Farel]

So as long as you want to play the game (which doesn't seem so hard now to tell the truth), everything will be extremely good for you ? See, that's what annoys me.


Edit : I think i'm seeing too much into it.

[orange]

It is very possible to be a wage/salary-slave and have a good life.  Actually, it is having a "good life" which creates the wage/salary slavery.  A person's willingness to pursue change (even if for the better) comes with unknown risks and that will disrupt the "good life."

This of course does not answer the question of what is dark-part.  But perhaps that is just it.

The Caldari State's dark side is the incredibly overt corporate-fascism.

The Doctrine of Fascism states, "The Fascist conception of the State is all-embracing; outside of it no human or spiritual values can exist, much less have value. Thus understood, Fascism is totalitarian, and the Fascist State—a synthesis and a unit inclusive of all values—interprets, develops, and potentiates the whole life of a people."

I suppose that can be approached however as "fine," so long as it does not include attempts at genocide.

[Veiki]

I have always thought the Fascist concept where the State itself replaces spiritual concepts such as God/s and an afterlife as a source of immortality applied well to the Caldari mindset. Do your part for the greater good, your family and your corporation through service to the State, and in doing so ensure the continued existence of the State and your labours for it.

Then again it could also just be the end result of someone's anime collection.

[Vikarion]

Frankly, at this point, given that CCP and Falcon have basically been making the Federation out (event-wise) to be The Best At Everything, I don't really know why we need to worry about the negative points of the other factions.

I mean, if the Minmatar take on the Fed, they get stomped. If an Amarr Holder takes on the Fed? Stomped. Operation Highlander? The Caldari get stomped, even if the only way to guarantee it is CCP re-spawning waves of dreadnoughts. If the Fed loses the militia war? No problem, they win anyway via a great new president, news articles, and screwing over suddenly stupid Caldari megas. Oh, wait, the Fed militia just took all systems? Well, they win again, because they exercised a scorched-earth policy when withdrawing.

Hell, in the Dust arena, the Caldari players beat the Gallente. Didn't matter. CCP rewrote it so that the Gallente won the battle of Caldari Prime on the ground as well, completely (EvE Source).

At this point, trying to find dark spots for the Caldari seems pointless. Why bother? We have one faction that is True and Good, and beats everyone else via plot armor. , so forget nuance. We have a space opera now. Might as well conform.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

Frankly, at this point, given that CCP and Falcon have basically been making the Federation out (event-wise) to be The Best At Everything, I don't really know why we need to worry about the negative points of the other factions.

I mean, if the Minmatar take on the Fed, they get stomped. If an Amarr Holder takes on the Fed? Stomped. Operation Highlander? The Caldari get stomped, even if the only way to guarantee it is CCP re-spawning waves of dreadnoughts. If the Fed loses the militia war? No problem, they win anyway via a great new president, news articles, and screwing over suddenly stupid Caldari megas. Oh, wait, the Fed militia just took all systems? Well, they win again, because they exercised a scorched-earth policy when withdrawing.

Hell, in the Dust arena, the Caldari players beat the Gallente. Didn't matter. CCP rewrote it so that the Gallente won the battle of Caldari Prime on the ground as well, completely (EvE Source).

At this point, trying to find dark spots for the Caldari seems pointless. Why bother? We have one faction that is True and Good, and beats everyone else via plot armor. , so forget nuance. We have a space opera now. Might as well conform.

Having written the backstory for a major computer game I can certainly concur that it's hard  work - but I can also concur that it is a lot more doable than CCP make it look.

They seem, internally, to be quite happy with the Status Quo at the moment when it comes to things not in Null space and, perhaps, that makes it hard for them to fundamentally change things (or to create the illusion that they are doing so). They also seem to be unable to decide whether they're doing Realpolitik or Grimdark. I'm not sure why - since most of their playerbase probably doesn't care about the lore to that extent, but it's where most of their lore problems stem.

Hmmm... Actually, I think Grimdark and mistaken application of it is probably their BIG problem. I'm going to write a topic specifically about Eve's use of Grimdark and why it's causing problems  tomorrow.

[Vikarion]

Hmmm... Actually, I think Grimdark and mistaken application of it is probably their BIG problem. I'm going to write a topic specifically about Eve's use of Grimdark and why it's causing problems  tomorrow.

I look forward to it. Should be interesting.

[Lyn Farel]

I almost forgot that event wise, the gallente suddenly tended to start winning at everything... It's weird though, because before all of that the Fed was probably the most sluggish and spineless faction, taking blow after blow and still smiling with several teeth less. While it was a time when the Amarr were most of the time depicted as goofy idiotic bigots, the Gallente had an issue of actually losing at everything.

I still remember people complaining about it when the Caldari were always depicted as winning everything cluster wise. Especially after TEA events, where the gallente failing at everything became even more obvious not only after the loss of CP, but traitors, corrupted idiots, etc. And still failing at acting.

I suppose CCP eventually got to the point were they did the exact opposite, making kador suicide attack Solitude (is that a thing with CCP and stupid military moves ? Do the gallente look so stupid that all factions suddenly lose their mind and suicide fleets against them ?), then elected Roden, and made the giant in the Fed awaken and stomp everything.

Then now we are at a point where event wise the Fed are ruling everyone else, and lore wise, the Caldari are... well. I mean, you say it yourself on the IGS, the State is the strongest in terms of military, economy, and you forgot about technology too. So, what are they not the strongest at lol ? And then people wonder why I say that some people and CCP seem to have a fetish issue when it comes to the Caldari... ? :/

[Vikarion]

Lyn, in terms of tech and economy, the picture is somewhat nuanced in EvE:Source. The Caldari have the most efficient economy, I should have said, but the Federation and the Amarr have larger ones. Tech-wise, the Caldari have better industrial and military tech, while the Gallente have better "consumer" tech.

If you read the old news articles, which is increasingly hard to do, the Gallente were not losing everything. That was the Amarr. In fact, I can only remember two major setbacks for them before TEA, one being the theft of a Titan, and the other when they lost a convoy attempting to infiltrate a Caldari station in Kassigainen...and the second was caused by players. And the Caldari were never winning "everything" - in fact, there were quite a few news articles where they were portrayed rather badly, like the whole Brotherhood of Freedom series of incidents or the "protein delicacies" incident. In the past, Gallente and Caldari portrayals were fairly balanced between some good and some bad. But the portrayal we have now is so imbalanced that any other faction winning anything looks strange after a while, because all we are shown is the aquamarines winning everything.

That's not to say that I think it would be a good idea for the Caldari and Amarr to get their time in the sun and to toss the Gallente out in the cold. I just think that it's a bad idea to have one society that is a utopia, wins all the battles, and whose only real problems are that other societies around it just aren't as great as it is.

Or, to put it in a more humorous way, the writing for the Gallente Federation in, say, EvE:Source, TEA, and other works seemed the literary equivalent of a man staring lovingly into a mirror as he jerks himself off. 

[Gwen Ikiryo]

In a weird way, TEA and Eve: Source treat the Federation in completely opposite ways. In TEA, the Federation loses constantly, but it's pretty obvious the writer (bless you, tonyg) projects modern western society on them wholesale and considers them the lone bastion of civilization in a chaotic universe in spite of this. Meanwhile, in Eve: Source, the Federation is portrayed as a lot more powerful, but it also makes it out to be be kinda bad. See the Chronicle they have in the Fed section which is basically about how Gallente culture is shallow compared to Caldari.