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[Arista Shahni]

* Arista Shahni takes the soft feminine way out, and walks back to the kitchen

[Nmaro Makari]

What in seven hells?

The fuck happened here, I posted on page one less than 24 hours ago. What the hell kind of shitstorm got loose?

I just thought it was a strange petition, can someone explain better than google news what's going on?

[Ché Biko]

Vizage: Thanks for the fallacies pic. Will be sending it to my mother-in-law.

Hmm, do I have something on-topic to say on this thread that I did not read fully?
...
Can't we all just get along?
That's rhetorical, by the way.

* Ché Biko joins Shahni in the kitchen.

[Vikarion]

Aside note/
Bloodbird, I told you that this sort of thing would result in nothing but abuse sent your way. I don't know why you bother.
/end aside note

I really don't care about gamers, or gaming culture, or who is right or wrong in the current kerfluffle. It's interesting, but I don't care. I like games. The only thing that really pissed me off in this whole deal was when one of feminist-sided articles declared that "we need to stop focusing on making games fun". To me, that was an element of ideological stupidity that reached a sort of critical mass, wherein it destroyed the very subject matter it was trying to argue over.

I worry about that sort of thing. But not really. Because no matter what the SJW's try for, there will still be games where I get to do what I enjoy: build, wreck, conquer, murder, resurrect, and generally have fun. It may only be indie developers making them (like Toady1, with Dwarf Fortress), but they'll be there. So my hobby is safe - not that I always have as much time to play it as I'd like.

As for misogyny, I don't give a damn.    I don't spend my time worrying about whether women have it bad in gaming or how I can get more women to enjoy my hobby. I just...don't care. But I also don't go out of my way to cause offense. I don't say stupid shit like "make me a sandwich", or "tits or GTFO", or anything else more offensive, which I will omit for reasons of not getting catacomb-ed. Nor do I tend to laugh at it. I don't find it interesting or funny, and I don't find those who do to be very interesting people. If women want to enjoy games, great. If they are driven out by the misogyny of others, well, frankly, I probably won't notice.

Which is a principle that also applies to the wider view. I'm all for women getting paid equally for equal work, but I also notice that most women don't seem interested in doing dirty and dangerous jobs, even if they pay more. I have nothing against hiring female construction workers, but they are rarer than hens teeth. Am I supposed to go drag a receptionist down to one of my bays to work as a painter, since painting pays more? Or should I tell the painter that, despite the fact he has to work in a hot metal building for eight straight hours with toxic chemicals, I'm going to decrease his paycheck and hand it to the nearest receptionist in an air-conditioned office?

Ultimately, I'm going to do neither, because I don't care to try to exert my brief life trying to enact justice on an unjust universe. I seek my own good, because that's hard enough to attain. And so, if women are more likely to be harassed or attacked, so much the worse for them. If men are (as I understand the case to be) more likely to be assaulted and murdered, well, I try to stay in safe areas, I've taken some martial arts, and I may carry what legal weaponry I'm allowed. If the police are unjust, I try to keep recording devices around and stay scrupulously within the law. It may not save me, but it improves my chances.

If men fare worse with alimony, well, I won't get married. If men have more workplace accidents, I'll just try to be careful and alert. If men experience domestic partner violence more than was previously thought, well, I'll learn to live happily alone if necessary, and make sure I have ways of verifying my behavior as good if I'm in a relationship.

I remember reading some of the Red Pill reddit stuff after BB brought up the MRM last time. One of the things they posit is that men should try to be more "manly", more masculine, and one thing they recommended was lifting weights. Now, I don't know if Red Pill theory is very accurate or total BS, but, I thought, if they are right, lifting weights and getting more exercise will make me more attractive and interesting to both genders. And, if they're full of shit, well, I'll keep in shape and feel good anyway. What's to lose?

So, I'm off to do my workout.

[BloodBird]

Aside note/
Bloodbird, I told you that this sort of thing would result in nothing but abuse sent your way. I don't know why you bother.
/end aside note

Sometimes I wonder too. Maybe I'm just a masochist

I've re-read this whole tread now and come to the realization that, the odds of this discussion going any better than the previous one's I've had with feminists and their supporters and the hard-liners among the MRM is likely not going to go anywhere at all constructive. I've already seen many of the signs and the arch-typical arguments from some members here drains away any hope. Why would anyone here be different when I've seen it all before?

Mizhara, I'll take your advice to heart - and I've saved the link to HEF, thanks for sharing that - and will be bowing out instead of waste my time with what seems to be ideologues I won't have a hope of swaying either way.

Your reply to Silas regarding gendered differences in media and such was more-or-less what I wanted to reply with but far more eloquent and well-put, so if you keep this discussion going, I wish you well - you are better suited for it than I am anyway.

[Ollie]

I really don't care about gamers, or gaming culture, or who is right or wrong in the current kerfluffle. It's interesting, but I don't care. I like games. The only thing that really pissed me off in this whole deal was when one of feminist-sided articles declared that "we need to stop focusing on making games fun". To me, that was an element of ideological stupidity that reached a sort of critical mass, wherein it destroyed the very subject matter it was trying to argue over.

I worry about that sort of thing. But not really. Because no matter what the SJW's try for, there will still be games where I get to do what I enjoy: build, wreck, conquer, murder, resurrect, and generally have fun. It may only be indie developers making them (like Toady1, with Dwarf Fortress), but they'll be there. So my hobby is safe - not that I always have as much time to play it as I'd like.

As for misogyny, I don't give a damn.    I don't spend my time worrying about whether women have it bad in gaming or how I can get more women to enjoy my hobby. I just...don't care. But I also don't go out of my way to cause offense.

True this.

[Shiori]

[...]
Of course, that's what certain high-profile people/groups are trying to make it about, but it isn't what started it. Shitty and corrupt journalism practices are what started it off. That some people responded to reports of it in an entirely inappropriate fashion is an entirely separate issue that should be dealt with on its own without detracting (or distracting) from the fact that journalism in the gaming industry (and, to be fair, many other industries) is full of corrupt and shitty behavior that ruins any illusion of "integrity" that may or may not have been present.

Yeah, I don't believe this. I've been looking for those Nixon tapes, and all I've found is that

1. Just about everybody who's pointed out as 'corrupt' is a woman with 'unpopular' opinions about games, or anyone who's ever admitted those might have some sort of point.
2. The 'evidence' of their corruption all boils down to outright lies, gifs on 4chan of Twitter conversations between people in the industry with red arrows drawn between them, or accusations that pitching $5 in some starving indie's Patreon is evidence of some kind of massive conspiracy.
3. Meanwhile, actual industry collusion between actual monied interests goes wholly unremarked.

I can't see these #gamergate people as, at best, useful idiots in 4chan's perpetual anti-'SJW' crusade. /v/ lecturing people on ethics? Really?

[Katrina Oniseki]

What in seven hells?

The fuck happened here, I posted on page one less than 24 hours ago. What the hell kind of shitstorm got loose?

I just thought it was a strange petition, can someone explain better than google news what's going on?

I was literally just about to say this, substituting "posted" with "saw".

What the fuck, people. LOL.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Keep in mind this whole shitpile was started when her jilted ex decided to post a gigantic emotional diatribe about Zoe Quinn. It's not about shitty journalism at all because I've read the articles that the men she allegedly slept with wrote after the alleged affairs. Only one of them mentions the game she made at all and it's in passing. This is about using slutshaming to silence a voice that people think is getting too uppity. This is why we have the derisively voiced term "social justice warrior" being thrown around. You know what?  I'll adopt that term.


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[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Also not surprised that admitted sociopath Vikarion doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself and his own enjoyment


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[Silas Vitalia]

Also not surprised that admitted sociopath Vikarion doesn't give a shit about anyone but himself and his own enjoyment


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Interestingly I think gender and other inequality issues tend to take a healthy amount of empathy to try and untangle, or at least is a requirement to make you have an interest in the issues. If you can't imagine yourself in the shoes of the other it's hard to get that desire to change things kindled.

This thing with the vidjo-games is following a very standard script by this point, and you can replace "video games" with any hot issue you like: race, income inequality, whatever.

The people who have been getting the shaft for decades point out to the people not getting fucked how awful the situation is, some of the people not getting screwed by the system loudly and aggressively give 0 fucks and there we go.  People getting the shaft eventually become more radical since asking nicely to not be given the shaft seems to have little effect.

Side Rant:

As we just had 'labor day (hah)' here in the US, a brief aside I sometimes have good discussions with my conservative friends about, who champion hard core 'free market:'

A lot of the work standards they take for granted were radical anti establishment positions 100 years ago. 
The fact that most of us work an 8 hour day and not a 16 hour day, the fact that most of us only work 5 days a week, the fact that your children aren't working in factories, or are drinking poisoned milk, that sort of thing.

Those laws weren't just handed down from on high because the powers in control wanted to be nice.  It took thousands of people protesting and striking and being shot and beaten and killed by the police to make a dent in the at the time awful situation.   People literally were dying for this stuff, and most Americans forget that.

Not more than a mile from where I'm typing this a 100 years ago you had thousands of people on the streets demanding not to be worked to death in factories, and they eventually got what they asked for.

My point is that people in control don't just give up their authority and their system, they don't take less control over things, it takes constant vigilance and constant work by everyone to at least try and make the system a little less cruel.  This goes for labor, racism, democracy, anything.  Complacency leads to you getting screwed in the end.   

So if we think video games are sexist or that forums are full of trolls as Silver said it's up to each and every once of us to make the community that we want to exist in.  That maybe means voting with your money on some games, or raising your voice when you see something you disagree with.

[Kala]

Disclaimer:  This shit makes me immensely grumpy.  If there's a snippy tone here, it is not directed at the OP, but what's going on in general.  I'll make no pretence at objectivity; this makes my piss boil.


Or there's this https://medium.com/@andreaszecher/open-letter-to-the-gaming-community-df4511032e8a.


Well, I'd agree with 'stop the hatred' - it's just most of the hatred I've seen hasn't been directed at 'gamers' as a whole. 

I've seen a lot of disproportionate hatred directed at two individuals - Anita Sarkeesian and Zoe Quinn by a vocal minority of the gaming community, though. 



With the former, and the recent harassment where someone tweeted this:

http://i.imgur.com/u7VXuEU.jpg she decided to leave her house and contact the police.  Because when someone threatens you and your family and knows your address, you probably want to take it seriously.  (and because it's fucking nuts)

The backlash against Sarkeesian is that she's made it all up to victimize herself, or it's not as bad she and the 'SWJs' are claiming.  I've heard people say it's all 'completely innocent'.  (even if you're just trolling for the lulz, it isn't innocent).

And no, one person, does very much not speak for all.  But that's the threat, the serious threat, with her address blanked out.  It's not like there haven't been umpteen other examples of harassment.  Such as these. http://www.newstatesman.com/sites/default/files/images/anita-threats.JPG

Then further, go on some of the comment threads at the moment and hear people talk about her.  It's like she's the anti-christ, out to 'kill games and gamers' as one person put it.  Apparently, she wants to censor, sanitize and/or ban games. 

Odd.  I hadn't heard her say that - what she actually said was it's entirely possible to enjoy something and find aspects of it problematic at the same time.

Why is she such a threatening figure, receiving so much hate?

Because she's made videos discussing tropes that represent female characters in video games.  That's it.  Just fairly standard media criticism, but directed at games.

And, I suppose, the hate may be reaching critical mass because some of the people listening to her are fairly high profile.  Like Joss Whedon and Tim Schafer.  Like the Game Developers Choice Awards.  Like various gaming websites and journalists.



The Zoe Quinn stuff is less cut and dry. 

Zoe Quinn made a game - you may have heard of it, you may not.  It's called Depression Quest.  When she submitted it on Steam green-light she received a bunch of harassment - despite the fact you could play it for free.  I don't know why.  Maybe because people feel it's #notarealgame because it's text based.

Her ex boyfriend wrote a blog detailing his side of the story of their relationship.  It's as bitter as you might imagine it would be.  In it, he accuses her of cheating on him with 5 guys.  The '5 guys burgers and fries' meme is born.  Some of these people are in the game industry as well, therefore in a position to benefit her career.  The boyfriend left a kind of "I'm not saying this did happen, but it's awfully convenient..." type comment regarding the possibility of nepotism.  Which is enough for the internet, obvs.

Therefore the issue of slut shaming Zoe Quinn on the word of a jilted ex-boyfriend, and corruption and lack of integrity in gaming journalism got conflated.  Despite the allegations not having any basis: http://kotaku.com/in-recent-days-ive-been-asked-several-times-about-a-pos-1624707346. 

Apparently the details of her sex life is in the public interest because she's an indy dev.
 
I'd ask though, if it's an issue of journalistic integrity, how come the hate is centred on her? How come she's the one people are making doctored images of and putting up on the internet, she's the one getting smeared, targetted and doxxed, rather than the journalists who've have been accused of trading good reviews for sexual favours?


Plenty of people are coming out and saying, no, actually, I play games, it's my hobby, but I don't what a vocal minority of people are doing to represent me.  I would never do that shit, or condone it.

As far as I'm concerned, the more gaming websites and entities who say this attack and harassment stuff is completely unacceptable, and anyone wanting to do so is unwelcome in their community, the less 'tainted' by it 'gamers' as a whole will be.

Here's some examples:

Games.On.NetL - "if you really think feminism, or women, are destroying games, or that LGBT people and LGBT relationships have no place in games, or that games in any way belong to you or are “under attack” from political correctness or “social justice warriors”: please leave this website. I don’t want your clicks, I don’t want your hits, I don’t want your traffic. Leave now and please don’t come back."

Rock Paper Shotgun: "We do not believe that in any resulting greater equality anyone will suffer. Gamers will not lose out. Call Of Duty will still be released every November, with angry soldier men shouting “FUCK!” as they shoot down a helicopter. That isn’t going to go away. Instead we fight for greater variety in those resulting games. And we fight for safer, more friendly spaces in which they can be created. And we fight for a media that celebrates equality, and discourages cruelty and inequality. When anything gets in the way of that, we’re going to say so."

Badass Digest: "As Gaming Editor here, I get to play a lot of video games. I love the gaming medium; I think it’s got the potential to define the 21st century as much as film defined the 20th. I also get to experience the gaming community and industry, which can be a wonderful place. There are a lot of genuinely positive people out there making groundbreaking interactive art, and similarly positive people playing it.  But it’s hard to self-identify as “a gamer” when there’s also a large swathe of that community apparently committed to presenting us all as a bunch of hateful sociopaths."

I agree with them 100% here, and the stance they're taking.

[Silas Vitalia]

Excellent post Kala thanks for some of the explanations of the story so far

[Kala]

You're welcome, but I'd read around it and not take my feelings on the matter as any kind of last word on the story so far.
I'm sure someone will be around to disagree with my version of events any time now 

[Silas Vitalia]

Well sometimes I just have to keep reminding myself we are still in the infant stages of the internets.

Eventually being able to anonymously tell someone they should be raped and murdered won't be a thing easily done. 

People get awfully buck anonymously online, but put a real name and a face attached to things and it does a remarkable job of toning things down. (usually).

Those people who told Sarkeesian she should be raped, or were going to murder her, all have mothers, or sisters, or daughters, and maybe they should know what the men in their lives are saying.   Perhaps a good project for some +10 lawful good hackers out there.