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[Silas Vitalia]

@ SILAS

I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.

That video is from a libertarian website, which drinks a very special brand of kool-aide with regards to how they feel a perfect world would work, and how they feel the current world works.  Libertarians often champion the cause of a perfect world of individual choices and liberty that is unfortunately divorced from a real world of inherited social difficulties and false choices.  (another thread topic perhaps!).  It's always an interesting argument as those on the right often feel that everything we do is up to personal free decision making and flatly disregard societal and social influences on our 'choices' while the left often goes very far in the other direction maximizing the effect of society on our individuality and minimizing the role of the individual in our own outcomes.

Anyway The last 30 seconds of that video invalidate the previous 3:30.   

Of course if women were making the same education and work choices as men they would be probably be getting paid nearly as well in the long run.   Unfortunately society expects and channels them to do more of the child-rearing and home work, there's only so much time and effort one can put into a career and balance those other issues.   Remember when female CEO's who run billion dollar businesses get asked how they can take care of their family and run such a large business and the male CEO's aren't? We have an ingrained societal expectation with regards to gender and sex roles that fortunately are becoming (slowly) less and less valid and rigid.

Things are starting to slide in interesting directions though as more men take up more of the child-rearing activities and more homes are dual-career.  An unfortunate side effect of wage stagnation is that both parents often need to work out of simply making ends meet.

[Lyn Farel]

I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.

"Women do not earn less than men because of inequality and discrimination but due to their experiences/skills/job choices."

Well then, thanks you for pointing the obvious Mr I don't know who he is. 

That may be true but I think you missed the fact that it doesn't negate the problem at all : men often work in better paid fields of work precisely because women are educated not to care about those fields of work, or discouraged of doing so because that's not a womanly job, like secretary is not a manly job.

Cf the video Arista linked (the one with Neil DeGrass Tyson).

Awesome explanation in that video. Edit: Arista's video, that is.

As far as the topic at hand, while I can understand the 'Some bad apples do it, but it totally isn't me/most of us/etc' urge when these kind of issues come up, I don't think it is that helpful. I also think that most of the coverage I've seen hasn't really painted it with that broad a brush. But the truth here is that the portion of this that is most in need of attention is that fact that even a minority of people - and it is apparently not an extremely small minority, given the volume generated every time someone female says something these people disagree with - thinks that sending threats of death and sexual violence  are an appropriate response to any sort of gaming related commentary (or even a possible breach of journalistic ethics. The litmus test I generally apply is, is this the same response a male person in the same position would get. The answer is 'no' with depressing regularity.)

Certainly this is an issue in other places and communities - particularly on the internet - as well, but for whatever reason it does seem there is a particularly virulent strain of it in gaming. I think that rather than dodging responsibility with an 'There are a few people like that, but not most of us, and not [/i]me[/i]' or suggesting it is almost not a problem with 'Its a tiny minority' type declarations, what I try to do is accept that it's a real problem, discourage it if I see it, make sure that places I e-frequent are not friendly to it, and keep an eye on my own tendency to float along in the lazy river of culturally acceptable pigeonholing of people based on sex, gender, race, etc.

Acknowledging a problem like this exists can feel like a personal affront, as can the suggestion that it's the community at fault. But that's what communities are, something we are all contributors to and something we therefore share responsibility for. I'm not angry that I might be tarred with the same brush as some sexist fuckwit. I'm angry that the sexist fuckwits haven't been driven off or drowned out by the rest of us. The community should be unbearably toxic for them, not for women or any other group that are just minding their goddamn business and perhaps expressing opinions on the internet in a reasonable way (even if they are opinions you disagree with).

tl:dr: It isn't a personal insult, and the people on the receiving end probably aren't trying to make you look bad. They are probably just hoping it gets better and eventually stops.

Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.

[Silver Night]

Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.

I don't think that is fair. One needn't feel guilty to feel that this sort of thing carries the sting of false accusation. I just don't think that in most cases that is the intent on one side, or that on the other side that viewing it that way is a useful response to the underlying problem.

[Silas Vitalia]

@ Silver your longer post +100; much more eloquent and less pitchfork-wielding than I could ever manage.

Well said

[BloodBird]

@ SILAS

I've heard the gender pay gap myth so often I've lost count and frankly, can almost recite the answer to it off the top of my head by now. Almost. I'll just leave this here for you, an answer to your first claim in a better way by better educated people than me.

That video is from a libertarian website, which drinks a very special brand of kool-aide with regards to how they feel a perfect world would work, and how they feel the current world works.  Libertarians often champion the cause of a perfect world of individual choices and liberty that is unfortunately divorced from a real world of inherited social difficulties and false choices.  (another thread topic perhaps!).  It's always an interesting argument as those on the right often feel that everything we do is up to personal free decision making and flatly disregard societal and social influences on our 'choices' while the left often goes very far in the other direction maximizing the effect of society on our individuality and minimizing the role of the individual in our own outcomes.

Anyway The last 30 seconds of that video invalidate the previous 3:30.   

Of course if women were making the same education and work choices as men they would be probably be getting paid nearly as well in the long run.   Unfortunately society expects and channels them to do more of the child-rearing and home work, there's only so much time and effort one can put into a career and balance those other issues.   Remember when female CEO's who run billion dollar businesses get asked how they can take care of their family and run such a large business and the male CEO's aren't? We have an ingrained societal expectation with regards to gender and sex roles that fortunately are becoming (slowly) less and less valid and rigid.

Things are starting to slide in interesting directions though as more men take up more of the child-rearing activities and more homes are dual-career.  An unfortunate side effect of wage stagnation is that both parents often need to work out of simply making ends meet.

So in short, the video is invalid and the wage gap is down to discrimination between men and women's gender-based expectations?

I suppose you also have a handy answer to explain why you presented the claim it's an economical discrimination based on gender if you knew all along that it was based on what life choices men and women make regarding their work, what type of work, and how long they do work, or did I miss something? (I may well have, I've not slept in 46 hours  )

I'm going to just leave this here for all of you.......Enjoy

P.S. Many of these have been committed already in this thread.

[Sorry about the scale.]

Thanks. Saved to my hard-drive.

@ Bloodbird I think gender inequality is very much at the root of your discussion, it drives the criticism of that particular industry and also unfortunately drives the predictable responses.

If my religion is advocating for the marginalized in society then thank you I guess

Your "religion" is feminism, far as I can see. I have spent the last year looking into the whole feminism vs MRM kerfuffle. The horrible thing is that, my attempt to remain as unbiased as I can has failed me miserably. There is only so much I can take before I start to look at people in a generalized manner.

I estimate personally that the feminists I've seen, about 90% of them are illogical, emotion-driven ideologues who might as well be religious zealots, given their actions, statements and absurd disregard for anyone or anything that might disagree with them, while only about 20% of the MRM's member-base that I've seen have been the MRM's bad apples, as it was.

The disparity is absurdly slanted in the favor of the MRA's, something that surprised me given the almost universal media portrayals of MRA's as the evil assholes in the whole conflict.

I will only be able to hope then that you forgive me for getting rather tense, tired and disappointing with anyone here I see towing the feminist party line as hard as you do. I'll try for fairness' sake however to treat you on a personal level, as I've tried with every other feminist I've had conversations and debates with.

So, let's begin with this. The Gender wage gap that I pointed out an explanation for in my previous post, and a simple question.

You claim to speak for the "marginalized" in society. As in, western society in general. And by that, I assume you speak of women. In that line I got a quick question Silas.

What rights do men have today, that women don't? How are women marginalized in modern society?

Ofc, if I got it wrong correct me and then answer, please.

[Lyn Farel]

Gamers getting offended to broad strokes aimed at the gaming male community may have something on their consciousness. I don't feel targeted the slightest by these accusations. I actually fully endorse them.

I don't think that is fair. One needn't feel guilty to feel that this sort of thing carries the sting of false accusation. I just don't think that in most cases that is the intent on one side, or that on the other side that viewing it that way is a useful response to the underlying problem.

Yes of course it is a broad stroke. Well the issue is that i'm speaking about something I don't even have read or seen so far. They probably crossed a line and I can perfectly believe you on that. Especially since i'm no fan at all of broad generalizations. They would have said something like "the gaming community is plagued with sexist, homophobic and racist vermin" and I would have had no complain whatsoever to do, since it doesn't put every gamer in the same basket.

Wait. Ok well, you got a point considering how the above post made by Bloodbird about feminism being a religion made me rolleyes, since it's basically the same thing, not about gaming, but about feminism.

[Mizhara]

I mostly agree there, Silver. Not entirely, but close enough. The thing is that this is not achieved by statements that do tar a whole community with the same brush. No matter how you define it, it is still a matter of a minority whether it's a small or large one. To rally the rest of the reasonable people behind your cause, you're really not going to succeed with rhetoric and discourse that does slap everyone who calls themselves a gamer in the face. It's easy to say not to take it personally, but it'd be even easier to not aim it at everyone to begin with. I know I am certainly no misogynist or any of the other hilarious little names leveled at me by a significant portion of public figures in gaming. This doesn't mean it's okay to call me one and just assume I won't include myself in the demographic that's being described.

This approach creates a gulf between "us" and "them", drawing lines in the sand etc. It's basically saying "You are with the BAD ONES. Repent! Come HERE, to the GOOD SIDE." which right off the bat labels you as an enemy and that you are responsible for the actions and viewpoints of the minority. A far more useful approach would be to say "There are BAD ONES among your demographic. Don't you think we could do something about that? Let's have a talk and see what we can figure out.".

Obviously stupidly simplified but the key is inclusion, communication and joining forces rather than exclusion, labeling and then expecting people to be on your side.

Antagonizing people will in the great majority of cases alienate them rather than convert them. I can completely understand the people who have been apathetic or simply haven't cared falling into the defensive or even offensive camp against feminism and such when they've pretty much been pushed right off the fence and into the misogyny camp instead of being pulled off the fence into the equality camp with inclusive and approachable language.

And this is where the cynic in me starts rising as I'm convinced a lot of people know and understand this quite well, and intentionally create these hostile camps so they can clothe themselves in victimhood and reap the publicity and kickstarter funds sympathy generates. The fairly well proven false flag cases of fake harassment - note, I'm not saying harassment etc doesn't occur. I'm saying there are demonstrable cases where claimed harassment never happened - happening exactly at times where these people need a publicity boost or a buttload of sympathy to offset some bad PR makes me want to chew the keyboard.

In short, I'd stay damn clear of every public figure on this matter as most of them are either on the extremist side of things or are cynically using the shitstorms for their personal gain. Go online, check your local area for groups doing actual work on whatever cause you consider worth it and join them in real life. That's where shit gets done.

Also, have a bit of empathy and understand that the people on the other side of the fence aren't necessarily enemies. They're just trying to keep the coin balanced on the edge rather than having it fall down and crush them underneath it.

that's precisely patriarchy, as much as you want to avoid the word, that creates either female or male inequalities. The matter of divorces is not exception to the rule, since the rule clearly points to "gender roles" and basic inequality of sexes, if not in terms of value, then in terms of what their "specialty" should be.

Patriarchy is a very evocative word. It implies some sort of male conspiracy or that there's some concerted effort to keep the genders imbalanced etc. It manages in a single word to paint men as enemies. See above for why this is a bad thing for everyone involved.

As for gender specialties etc. There's no getting around the fact that men and women are different. We think differently. We're generally physically different. There are demonstrable differences in our brains, in neurology, hormones etc etc that lends themselves to different things. In my line of work, we know women are generally far better at many aspects of it (patient comforting, empathizing (( Which is useful in diagnostics and communication )) and some other things) while men tend to be better at clinical examination, separating emotions from cold logic (useful in triage, high stress situations, looking past lying patients etc) and sheer physical strength.

Equality between genders is not a cause well served by forgetting that there are differences between the genders. We had an ambulance where due to quotas two young women were assigned. They couldn't do their job. They couldn't lift the patient in the gurney, they occasionally couldn't suppress their need to help a patient and got themselves in dangerous situations to do so, etc. The same applies in the other direction, where all male crews are far less suited for jobs than women.

The above of course speaks of men and women who identifies as such and does not touch upon feminine men or masculine women. Men can have the neurological features generally seen in women and vice versa, and physical attributes to boot.

Dismissing gender roles as irrelevant or even as a bad thing does not do our society any favors as biologically there are quite significant differences that need to be accounted for.

I estimate personally that the feminists I've seen, about 90% of them are illogical, emotion-driven ideologues who might as well be religious zealots, given their actions, statements and absurd disregard for anyone or anything that might disagree with them, while only about 20% of the MRM's member-base that I've seen have been the MRM's bad apples, as it was.

This is not quite right. This, I suspect, is a matter of sheer numbers. The self-proclaimed feminists are truly legion. They outnumber the MRM by a factor of a FUCKTON. This means that even if a mere five percent (number pulled wholecloth out of my arse) of them are loud extremists joining in on #killallmen unironically they will still vastly outnumber the entire MRM.

The proportions of assholes and extremists are quite likely to be equal on both sides of that fence, but since one camp is significantly smaller they'll just look like they have less assholes. We have just as many douchenozzles in the MRM as feminists have... err... douchebottles? There's just less of us overall.

OGOD EVEN MORE REPLIES! Fuck it, I'm posting this now in the hopes that no new ones have been made in the mean time or this'll become a bloody book before I'm finished.

[Silas Vitalia]

assume you speak of women. In that line I got a quick question Silas.

What rights do men have today, that women don't? How are women marginalized in modern society?

I don't claim to speak for any other person, I can only express empathy and solidarity with those I feel are often victims and marginalized.  Advocating for a group of people is not speaking for them.  Being an ally is not speaking for them.  The more male allies that feminists have, the better.

here's a few though:

Men seem to have the right not to be harassed on the street for the clothing they wear. 

Men seem to have the right not to be raped at alarming rates and then judged for the clothes they were wearing, or what they did to 'cause' the crimes against them. Hint: it's not the clothes fault, it's the rapist.

Men also seem to have the right to not be victims of sexual assault in colleges across the country at grotesque rates, and then have their stories constantly ignored, trivialized, and shoved under the rug by administration PR not wishing to have public spotlights on the issue.

Men seem to have the right to not be beholden to or ushered into specific career fields due to their gender

Men seem to have the right to make sexual decisions with little fear of stigmatization and ridicule and social pariah status.  Sexual promiscuity is socially rewarded in males, is ostracized in females.

Men seem to have the right to stalk and harass women with very little in the way of legal ramifications or disincentives.

Men seem to have the right to not be reduced to sexual objects in nearly all media. Movies, television, video games. Constant and at absurd rates. 

Men seem to have the right not to be targeted by advertising at a young age and indoctrinated to be 'sexy' and an object of physical allure versus a complete person.

It's a long list but that's what comes to mind first.



Regarding the video the point is that those 'choices,'  and that's a big air quote on 'choices' that women make regarding education and employment, are products of societal expectations and steering regarding gender.   Men are also steered, but they seem to be steered into the high paying careers and aren't expected to take time away from careers to raise children.


Also it's always a good practice with these issues to include more women in the discussion if possible, although on this forum that can be a difficult thing.  Try discussing these issues with your girlfriend/wife if you have one, or some female friends and see what they think.

Since you gave me a video here's one for you, Jean Kilbourne has been doing amazing work for decades regarding women in advertising.  She's made some very illuminating lectures and videos that I found very educational.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jWKXit_3rpQ&src_vid=PTlmho_RovY&feature=iv&annotation_id=annotation_493134379

[BloodBird]

Re-reading my comments so far, the topic at hand, my lack of sleep, and the speed this tread is moving with I'd say I'm not in shape to do anything constructive.

I'll pitch in once I've had some sleep.

[Lyn Farel]

that's precisely patriarchy, as much as you want to avoid the word, that creates either female or male inequalities. The matter of divorces is not exception to the rule, since the rule clearly points to "gender roles" and basic inequality of sexes, if not in terms of value, then in terms of what their "specialty" should be.

Patriarchy is a very evocative word. It implies some sort of male conspiracy or that there's some concerted effort to keep the genders imbalanced etc. It manages in a single word to paint men as enemies. See above for why this is a bad thing for everyone involved.

As for gender specialties etc. There's no getting around the fact that men and women are different. We think differently. We're generally physically different. There are demonstrable differences in our brains, in neurology, hormones etc etc that lends themselves to different things. In my line of work, we know women are generally far better at many aspects of it (patient comforting, empathizing (( Which is useful in diagnostics and communication )) and some other things) while men tend to be better at clinical examination, separating emotions from cold logic (useful in triage, high stress situations, looking past lying patients etc) and sheer physical strength.

Equality between genders is not a cause well served by forgetting that there are differences between the genders. We had an ambulance where due to quotas two young women were assigned. They couldn't do their job. They couldn't lift the patient in the gurney, they occasionally couldn't suppress their need to help a patient and got themselves in dangerous situations to do so, etc. The same applies in the other direction, where all male crews are far less suited for jobs than women.

The above of course speaks of men and women who identifies as such and does not touch upon feminine men or masculine women. Men can have the neurological features generally seen in women and vice versa, and physical attributes to boot.

Dismissing gender roles as irrelevant or even as a bad thing does not do our society any favors as biologically there are quite significant differences that need to be accounted for.

It is a very evocative word ? Well, not for me it would seem. I just see it for what it is : patriarchy, with a societal system built around men for men, or at least around men as head of families. And I deeply believe that people are selfish by essence, especially in the individualistic societies we live in, so I have no difficulty to imagine that a lot of men want to keep their privileges, while the majority of the rest are just not aware of these privileges, for that they are no women and do not suffer from them.

It is the exact same thing in gaming when gamers get outraged because some games suddenly introduce homosexual romances or whatever. They get outraged mostly because those games do not cater anymore to their audience, while still playing in the same kind of games (cf bioware games, etc). They naturally forget that they have always been the main audience and are suddenly put in the position of all those minorities that never had the pleasure to get a game specifically designed for them, or at least including options for them. That's a problem of privilege by birth, or if not, by essence.

So if that word implies to people some conspiracy or tinfoil hattery, then i'm sorry, it was simply not what I wanted to imply.

It is also of course good to mention that for decades now the situation has been changing quite a lot and the appearance of post modernism is slowly decaying that old state of matter. It is indeed not a good idea to dismiss that patriarchy is part of what shaped our history and society, and that I am also conscious that some people I know have perfectly valid arguments regarding the differentiation of roles by gender. Well, yes, it is also the case in nature for most species (speaking about gender roles here, not homosexuality, which is very different in that case). I know those people do not want to see women be the lesser of men, but they want to see women in a different role, each with their strengths and responsibilities.

I can hardly tell them that they are doing it wrong or that their view is stupid. It is just a matter of opinion. And my own is quite clear on the matter : their opinion viscerally disgusts me. That's not the society I want. The same way that some right wing dudes might have perfectly valid arguments for their favoured model of society, doesn't mean that I will agree with them. I find their model disgusting. The same way they probably find mine disgusting.

Also, on differences between men and women, I think that you may over emphasize over them. Physical difference and genetic differences definitely are here. It is very telling in itself that men are closer to male chimps and women to female chimps genetically, because of, you know, sex chromosomes differences... But seriously, isn't that another hint of the absurdity to compare physical differences like that ? Or even worse, to compare physical differences with societal ones ?  Why do physical differences have to imply societal differences and roles ? In stoneage, maybe, but these days... ? Really ?

So yes, I just can't agree with your view. I could cite counter examples of working experience where women can prove to be more "manly" than men, or vice versa. I also believe that if you put these differences found in the majority of these cases on physical differences, then I put them on mere environmental upbringing and societal expectations.

[Mizhara]

Silas, those points aren't entirely correct. At least not over here. From personal experience and from conversations with other men:

* Being harassed for what you're wearing happens. I've been both sexually assaulted and derided on the street.
* Rape of men is an MRM issue because a disturbing amount of it either goes unreported or dismissed when reported. There's a huge culture of dismissing such things as not even happening or existing in both legal systems and in society in general.
* Men most certainly get dismissed, ignored, trivialized and shoved under the rug when sexually abused. It's a huge issue within MRM.
* Military. Forced drafts. Relentless pushing of "macho" stuff and towards a "real man's job" instead of nursing, arts, etc. If you're into these things, clearly you're a poofter. Grab a gun and become a MAN!
* I'll largely agree with you on promiscuity, although women are less stigmatized for it over here I feel. This is generally because we're really not into the whole shame or guilt thing when it comes to sex. Liberate your society over sex in general and the issue will almost be gone.
* Men get slapped with the law without any proof or indication of actually harassing or stalking all the time. This is another MRM issue we've been going over as men repeatedly and often get claims of harassment or other things against them and the legal system overwhelmingly works against them in favor of a tearful woman. This isn't conjecture, there are many cases where there's been found proof that the legal system is being used as a cynical tool by women against men.
* What media have you watched? I can't see a single show on television, in games or movies, without seeing a ridiculously unrealistic depiction of "manliness" or body images you can't possibly match without spending your entire life in the gym and in tanning salons.
* GI Joe, a huge range of violence oriented toys/games/shows, all generally pushing boys towards being MANLY MEN rather than themselves.

It's a long list and merely a small part of what men faces even in our most enlightened western countries.

As I said, we're all in this together. Feminists and MRM both aim towards the same thing and that's egalitarianism. Neither side is well served by claiming the other does not have their issues worth considering.

Let me share a trick I learned when I was set to write public statements, letters to newspapers etc in the Humanist organization. Don't go out offensively. Consider Humanism vs the Church as an example. We don't attack their stance on equality, women's rights or homosexuality. We promote our own views. We speak positively of their positive work and emphasize the great goals we have, what we're working towards and how to achieve it. This makes people empathize, relate and join in on our side of things.

Now, if we were to attack their points of view instead, pointing at blatant homophobia or their unwillingness to promote women within the church or whatever else, we'd look like an aggressor and rightly so. People never respond as well to an aggressor as to a promoter of positive stuff. Many would see the church as under attack and rally around it either to protect a victim or repel something aggressive or many other things and in the process they'd also dismiss our message.

Promote feminism. Promote all the great things women can and will do for society and how much better society will be with equal rights and less discrimination based on gender. (And religion, race, sexuality etc but in this case we're talking about feminism and MRM) This will make people join in and consider the benefits of feminism.

Putting the focus on men and setting them up as bad guys creates animosity. It doesn't promote cooperation or change, but instead makes people dig trenches to stave off an assault.

[Lyn Farel]

No Miz, that's only because you live in that minority of nordic countries where women happen to court men as much as men do, and that kind of thing. The patriarchic feel is quite absent here, and it took me so much time to even notice that there were actual countries where the society was so radically different in regard to genders that i'm still amazed. I think the first time I heard of that was when I was looking more into moving in Canada barely 4 years ago.

Funny the things you tend not to know...

It's not a coincidence either that most of you here that do not jump on the "feminist bandwagon" are from nordic countries.

Edit : it's the exact same thing that tends to colour my view when it comes to racism against black people. I'm very cynical with that kind of thing over there since yes, it still happens, and more than we want to believe, but there is also a great deal of positive discrimination involved precisely because it's still an issue (mostly in cases of employment), but not enough to warrant the thing we see happening for example in the US, where it is still a damn taboo and one of the big sensitive subjects that plagues the country. I'm pretty sure I would tend to groan at some of the arguments I hear from them over there for the simple reason that they just sound overexagerated or completely out of place where I live, even if it is still a sensitive subject from time to time. In terms of scale and society, it's just not the same thing.

[Silas Vitalia]

Miz I think we are just making entirely different arguments.

The things you talk about do happen, I don't disagree. You are right that it is a problem, it should stop, etc etc we should always work towards social justice for all in society.  Those things you speak of are real problems, and they do have victims and awful consequences for the men involved.

BUT, the extent to which those things you mention happen to men, and the amount of men they effect, verses the extent of the things I mention happen to women, and the number of women they effect, don't really make for equivalent amount of problems. 

It's not that you aren't correct, it's just that it's comparing a mountain to a very small hill. The small hill is very real and serious for the people that make up the small hill, but the mountain needs more attention and resources. The mountain effects half of the planet, and makes up half of its population. The amount of men dealing with those issues is a fraction of a tiny percent.

 

 

[Mizhara]

@ Silas, I really think you're underestimating the size of the hill vs the size of the mountain. Especially given the amount of people focused on the mountain compared the infinitesimal amount of people taking a poke at the hill. However, that's not really the main thrust of my argument. It's about how to approach either of them, the mountain OR the hill.

I'm entirely cool with feminism. The more feminists the are, the happier I am. I wholly and entirely endorse your focus on feminism over MRM since whichever one you are, you're still tackling important issues.

I'm generally arguing against the method used. The rhetoric employed. It's ineffective. It's creating animosity against feminism and generally will prove to be detrimental for feminism.

EDIT: Separating this into two paragraphs, as I just realized I'm an example of the line above this edit. I've now made several points in defense of men and argued against things you've said, even though I am in general on your side when it comes to women's issues. I didn't even think about it at the time of writing, but I was compelled to do so as your argumentation were on the Assault The Other Side rather than Promote Our Own Side of things.

Making a list of "things men don't have to deal with" looks very good from a women's point of view but it doesn't really do much but slathering guilt on the other party and that doesn't generate much good will. If you'd instead make a list of benefits from promoting a safer and healthier environment in colleges when it comes to sexual behaviour and awareness etc, you'd gain more supporters on both sides and likely a lot more traction when it comes to improving the situation.

In short, remove all bad guys from the entire line of arguments. As soon as you are perceived, rightfully or not, to be attacking a viewpoint, a gender, a demographic or whatever you will create opposition. This is only useful if you know that opposition can be buried under the weight of the support you create and neither side is in a position to do this. At this time, it's infinitely more useful and effective to argue the merits of equality and eradication of discrimination than arguing attacking discrimination outright. The latter would certainly be a moral and righteous thing, but it's simply a fact that huge swathes of people will for many reasons stand up against any attack on a viewpoint. Get these people on your side instead, by being the nice good guy that simply promotes the good stuff.

[Lyn Farel]

Oh on that we agree yes. Especially considering how plagued by nutcases is feminism, not very differently from the gaming community incidentally.