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[Silas Vitalia]

Yes, as a gamer I definitely should get lumped in with the prepubescent fuckwits yelling profanity on a console. They are definitely representative of me and my demographic.

The fact that there are minorities (yes, they most definitely are minorities) in every bloody camp out there that takes shit too far is certainly something to consider but the ridiculously stupid hyperbole and raging on the internet does nothing but create more of them. Go on the attack and you'll create enemies. Take a moment, count to ten, have a wank or whatever, then try to empathize with people and you might actually get somewhere. Create conversation. Talk to people instead of attacking them and maybe you won't push them into the mindset that you're actually an enemy they have to fight.

The moment you label people and then go on attacking them, all you've achieved is creating animosity towards you and the point you're trying to make. They'll start doing the same in return and they'll consider themselves justified in doing so.

I have zero sympathy towards the self-victimization people crying about "gamers" as if we're some homogenous group of neckbeard rapist wannabes and while I'd actually sympathize and consider the real problems they pretend to represent, now I really can't be arsed to give a gift-wrapped shit about any of the issues because they went on the assault instead of communication. I'll instead continue doing my work as a board member of the regional humanist association, cooperating with feminist and men's rights advocates towards egalitarian goals. They at least recognize that communication between them brings them both closer to the ultimate goal and while they're opposite sides of the coin, both are better off balancing it on the edge instead of battling over which side the coin should fall on.

lol men's rights

[Mizhara]

The issue is so one-sided I just have to laugh at all the "WE'RE NOT ALL BAD" arguments.  Those arguments come from thin-skinned folks not admitting how ridiculous the treatment and depiction of women are in the industry.

No, you're not all bad, but participating and supporting status quo patriarchal systems without pushing for change means it doesn't change.

This achieves nothing. You're creating enemies by conjuring up some grand "patriarchal system" that doesn't exist. You're not pushing for change by doing this, you're just labeling huge swathes of people and that will only turn them against you and what you're trying to achieve. Stirring up an even greater shitstorm will never get you anywhere because no one can see very far in one of those. Only as far as those who pronounce themselves your enemy.

[Silas Vitalia]

This achieves nothing. You're creating enemies by conjuring up some grand "patriarchal system" that doesn't exist.

If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.

Please compare for me basic stats for:

average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender.  Women make more than 50% of population.  Hint: House: 362 men 76 women   Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a  Bechdel test? 1%?  5%?

Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you.

FYI:  The Bechdel test asks if a work of fiction features at least two women, who talk to each other about something other than a man.  90% of movies out there do not pass this test, and that's sad.

[Mizhara]

lol men's rights

Yes, men's rights. It is an undeniable fact that men are discriminated against in certain aspects of society. Ever been in a custody battle? Divorce? Seen spousal abuse against a man be taken seriously by law enforcement? There are hundreds of issues in society where men are the underdogs and this is something worth working on. The thing is, this does nothing to hurt feminism. Quite the contrary.

Feminism and Men's Rights Activism is exactly the same, working towards a common goal which is equal rights and getting rid of discrimination based on gender. They are perfect allies, once you take a step back and employ a little empathy. Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the male side of society than men themselves? Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the female side of society than women? When the two communicate and work together, you can actually achieve something but when you go to the stupid extremes and consider the other to be enemies to be attacked, you gain nothing. All you do is create opposition where none existed to begin with.

You are in fact being a perfect example of the extremists on either side that are genuinely harming your own cause by dismissing or even attacking the very people who are in a position to either change themselves or their communities. What exactly are you gaining here, except more animosity?

Try to take a step back and employ some empathy. Maybe you'll see that there's worthwhile efforts on each side of the barriers.

If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.

Please compare for me basic stats for:

average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender.  Women make more than 50% of population.  Hint: House: 362 men 76 women   Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a  Bechdel test? 1%?  5%?

Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you

No one's disregarding the feminist side of things here, Silas. There are issues to be resolved but you aren't resolving shit by attacking the very people you want to change. You're just making enemies out of them. I am well aware of how the world around me works, and I recognize that solving an issue requires cooperation. This requires communication. It requires creating allies and empathizing with everyone involved.

But yeah, no. Let's just yell "patriarchy" because that'll solve everything.

[Shiori]

Exactly what this kerfuffle is supposed to achieve, I'm not sure anyway. If there's any evidence of an actual scandal mixed in with all the screaming, nobody's deigned to tell me what it is. And it had better be the gaming equivalent of the Nixon tapes, for all the shit my Twitter timeline's stuffed with.

[Mizhara]

Exactly what this kerfuffle is supposed to achieve, I'm not sure anyway. If there's any evidence of an actual scandal mixed in with all the screaming, nobody's deigned to tell me what it is. And it had better be the gaming equivalent of the Nixon tapes, for all the shit my Twitter timeline's stuffed with.

Don't even bother trying to untangle the mess. There was some legitimate issues regarding games journalism, corruption and false flag stuff going on, but then everything turned to a shitstorm the moment everyone picked a side and started throwing feces from their cages.

[Mizhara]

Dug up this post by Totalbiscuit. It's long and wordy, but it's worth reading as it touches quite well on the subject of nuance and extremes in these issues. Out of all of gaming media, it seems few are managing to keep a somewhat cool head. TB is one of the few solitary voices of reason left out there, it seems.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

Tell the MRA guys to ditch association with the Red Pill guys and we can start to talk about how they're working for equality


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Mizhara]

They're not associated with Red Pill. It's one of the subreddits that gets a ton of scorn from the MRA side of Reddit. What you shouldn't do, though, is equivocate subreddits with the actual movement. Most of the MRAs I deal with don't even use reddit, because the issues are in real life and the most effective means to deal with them are in real life.

Just like you can pretty much dismiss most of Tumblr and 4chan as noise clogging the signal, you can disregard most of what you see on reddit whichever sub you hang out in. The real efforts are done in real life by real organizations. My own, the Humanist Association here in Norway aren't officially connected with the real life organizations in either side of the camp but we still tend to be involved as egalitarianism and getting rid of discrimination is one of our primary goals, just like theirs are.

[Silas Vitalia]

lol men's rights

Yes, men's rights. It is an undeniable fact that men are discriminated against in certain aspects of society. Ever been in a custody battle? Divorce? Seen spousal abuse against a man be taken seriously by law enforcement? There are hundreds of issues in society where men are the underdogs and this is something worth working on. The thing is, this does nothing to hurt feminism. Quite the contrary.

Feminism and Men's Rights Activism is exactly the same, working towards a common goal which is equal rights and getting rid of discrimination based on gender. They are perfect allies, once you take a step back and employ a little empathy. Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the male side of society than men themselves? Who better to improve the attitudes and viewpoints of the female side of society than women? When the two communicate and work together, you can actually achieve something but when you go to the stupid extremes and consider the other to be enemies to be attacked, you gain nothing. All you do is create opposition where none existed to begin with.

You are in fact being a perfect example of the extremists on either side that are genuinely harming your own cause by dismissing or even attacking the very people who are in a position to either change themselves or their communities. What exactly are you gaining here, except more animosity?

Try to take a step back and employ some empathy. Maybe you'll see that there's worthwhile efforts on each side of the barriers.

If that's your opinion on the state of things there's not much else to say, really.

Please compare for me basic stats for:

average wages vs female wages 100% vs 70%
victims of sexual violence by gender
victims of domestic violence by gender
representation in government by gender.  Women make more than 50% of population.  Hint: House: 362 men 76 women   Senate: 83 men 17 women
movies or games with women that can even pass a  Bechdel test? 1%?  5%?

Please, in all seriousness, take a look at the world around you

No one's disregarding the feminist side of things here, Silas. There are issues to be resolved but you aren't resolving shit by attacking the very people you want to change. You're just making enemies out of them. I am well aware of how the world around me works, and I recognize that solving an issue requires cooperation. This requires communication. It requires creating allies and empathizing with everyone involved.

But yeah, no. Let's just yell "patriarchy" because that'll solve everything.

I think "Men's Rights" is often missing the forest for the trees.  Time and resources are often limited quantities, so many social justice activists feel it's a bit like spending advocacy for 1% of the problem.  Yes it's still a problem, but For every male victim custody battle there's 1,000 wife beaters or rapists not being taken seriously.  They/I feel it's more worthwhile to focus on the majority of where the harm is, where the majority of the inequality is.

And yes you do sometimes have to yell 'patriarchy' because honestly most people are blissfully unawares.  The gaming community is as a whole atrocious with gender issues.

In the larger world the amount of harm and misery on one side of this outweighs the other by such staggering amounts that it seems almost cruel to focus on things like custody battles when women are getting their genitals mutilated by knives in Africa or can't even drive a car in Saudi Arabia without being arrested.  Or have a bunch of white males making reproductive rights laws at the expense fo women.  Extreme examples I know, but shit be real, yo.

I'm not trying to be alarmist but things like 'mens rights' actually seem to be rooted in more of a selfish lack of empathy.   They often act like even acknowledging one group's inequality without inserting 'WE SUFFER TOO' is anathema.

It's just reminding me of the sometimes anti-racism arguments from white people "WE'RE NOT ALL RACISTS."  Which is true, but you still benefit from a system of racial inequality in many ways.

Anyway good thread.
 

[Silas Vitalia]

@ Mizhara

I'd actually be interested to know more about gender stats in Norway, I have a feeling you all are probably much further along with regards to wages and representation in politics than here in the States.  The nordic countries tend to (to my knowledge) do a much better job at societal homogenization of resources.

To add on to my earlier statement, I think in places where things start getting more equal it certainly makes more sense to spend more time on male issues.

[Arista Shahni]

I am now obtusely and undefinably offended by all of you.

Heh.


Cute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJRFClybmk

[Silas Vitalia]

I am now obtusely and undefinably offended by all of you.

Heh.


Cute video:  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UwJRFClybmk

Great video

[Mizhara]

@Silas

I can't really directly link to such stats as most public documents on such things are in Norwegian, but general numbers still favor the male population. On average the monthly paycheck for women was approximately 86,5% of the average monthly paycheck for men in 2012 and the pay increase was about 3% for women and 3,5% for men. In the private sector things are turning the other way with women's paychecks growing at about 4% over the 3,2% of men.

The SSB (Statistic Central Bureau) also gives some numbers on... hrr, what would be the English/American equivalent? Small region government, bigger than a city but smaller than a full region/state, whatever. Let's call it county because I think that might be it. The female representatives in a County... council/government was about 38,2% in 2013. The amount of women with higher education was about 31,6% up from 30,7% the year before, and men had about 26% with higher education compared to 25,6% the year before.

82,9% of men between ages 20 and 66 were fully employed in 2013 and 76,8% of women between ages 20 and 66 were the same. The women and men in part-time employment were 34,5% and 13,7% of the population, respectively.

In the public sector, women composed over 70% of the employees while in the private sector they composed approximately 36,5%. This statistic is somewhat telling on the matter of payment differences, as the public sector generally pays less than the private sector, while providing a more stable and reliable career path.

With divorced/separated couples, the children tend to live with their mother in 86% of the cases, although the amount of men gaining custody seems to rise by about 0.2% each year. When the couple are generally of higher education, you'll see a higher amount of shared custody.

The actual numbers on the amount of stay-at-home fathers is hidden behind a paywall but they say it's risen significantly the last ten years or so. I can't find actual numbers at the moment.

Somewhat of an oddity, but it turns out the northern parts of Norway (the more rural areas as it were) scores far higher on equality issues than southern Norway. I can't find any speculations on why that is, but it actually surprised me a bit as the backwaters tend to be a bit more backwards than central areas. Hm.

I can't find a more recent number than 2012, but the percentage of our Storting (I suppose it's like your Senate) was 39,8% and it has steadily been moving closer to actual equal numbers every year that has passed.

My sources have largely been https://www.stortinget.no/ and www.ssb.no aaaaaand I just noticed there's English versions of these sites too. I could have just copypasted, bloody hell. Well, you can check the numbers for yourself if you wish, as it seems most of the articles are translated to English.

[BloodBird]

I'm sick and tired of the slandering of the gaming community. We got our bad apples like everyone, but to behave as if the gaming community as a whole is a vile batch of scum and villainy is absurd and needs to end.

Please consider signing this if you agree.

The 'gaming community' has a horrible reputation for misogyny and immaturity for legitimate and well-earned reasons.

Your petition smells of butthurt at not acknowledging real problems in the "community."  Smells of 'Not all men!'

I'll tell you what, if the next time I play a FPS on a console I'm not called a faggot nigger whore and 'teabagged' after being digitally shot  by some idiot, I'll consider things improved.

Or the next time a woman posts some legit criticisms of the industry and doesn't receive hundreds of rape threats.

It's not my petition, but thanks for the notion regardless.

Thanks also for the notion that supposedly the shit-talkers and tea-baggers online represents us all, combatting that like of presumption was kind of the point though.

For the record, in PS2, that I game on a regular basis, I execute tea-baggers on my own faction on sight, and tell them in no unclear terms why this has been done. Believe it or not, but I agree with you 100% regarding that kind of juvenile behavior.

The only winning move is not to play.

No one that gets actually involved in any of these shitstorms achieves anything but a high blood pressure and being covered in shit, and inevitably spreading it further as they wheeze and hack up all they swallowed in the process. I think TB has been the only one to actually take a reasonable stance in these horseshit throwing contests and that just plonked him him right in the middle of no-man's land to take fecal barrages from every camp as reason and moderation seems to frighten and confuse every pillock in these "causes".

One side engages in spectacular displays of false flag bullshit to wrap themselves in more and more layers of victimhood, then the other side damn near justifies that sort of cynical and vile behaviour by actually acting like they're accused of being. Then someone conjures up enemies and bogeymen that never were involved by yelling "MRA! MRA!" because they know that'll win them the tumblrinas that promptly starts blubbering over their keyboards and nothing constructive can ever come out of being involved, at all.

Don't get involved. Don't take a side. Don't try to calm things down or you'll be the fucking enemy for not being plonked in one camp or another. Let the shitstorm run its course and just hope your own house isn't covered in shit by the time it's done.

And no, I'm not going to sign something about stopping the hate because I do hate almost everyone that's spoken publicly about this stuff, especially as gaming journalism has gone straight to shit after it first became a thing. Oh, and fuck Phil Fish right in the you know what I'll take my own advice and not even play.

Well I guess I know how you feel on this matter... yikes.

Sadly for me I'm not quite this jaded yet.

Yet.