Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Havohej]

Mods gonna mod. 

[admin]Yup.  Temp lock for moderation.EDIT: Topic re-opened.  Participants are encouraged to review Rule 5 regarding respect of US law (as the board is hosted by a US-based company on a machine located on US soil).  This includes US copyright law.[/admin]

[Publius Valerius]

Mods gonna mod. 

Yup.  Temp lock for moderation.EDIT: Topic re-opened.  Participants are encouraged to review Rule 5 regarding respect of US law (as the board is hosted by a US-based company on a machine located on US soil).  This includes US copyright law.

Stupid question: Why you havent just snip my post, but instated deleted it? As the part where I ask Seriphyn about his project is gone, as well as I say people dont by shy. And I have to write it again. So sad. Nevermid, so I do it again.

So again:
- People dont be shy. Give some feedback: What you like, what you dont like?
- How is the Elusenia-project going? Do you need a ambassador?

[Muck Raker]

When my copy of Eve Sauce arrives, I shall be examining it carefully, and should I find anything particularly objectionable, then in the tradition of Confessions of an Empress's Love Slave, I shall report those objectionable facts as being True™ on the IGS.


[spoiler]True™ is a trademark of Gutter Press Media Corporation. Dramatisation may not have happened.[/spoiler]

[Samira Kernher]

So, I finally got Source, so going to check to see how close my predictions were.

I don't have the book, so can't say in regards to the population presented in the book, but if we take previous given estimates...

Gallente Federation is 20% of total clusterwide population.

Minmatar in the Empire make up a third of all Minmatar everywhere, Minmatar in the Republic make up a quarter. So there are ~33 trillion Minmatar total, and about 8.3 trillion in the Republic. Adding in non-Matari immigrants, that probably gets up to 9-10 trillion in the Republic. Thukker don't count, as they aren't in empire space (as the numbers are only factoring in empire space). So Republic makes up about... uh, 13% ish?

State is the smallest, and makes up everything else.


It's possible that the Kingdom and Mandate aren't counted as empire space (to clarify, I meant empire space before, not all of New Eden), and so aren't included in that total population count. That would leave around 59% Empire (29% free, 28% enslaved), 20% Federation, ~13% Republic, ~8% State.


Like I said, I don't have the book, so I can't say if these numbers are right.

From Source:

29% Empire (21.4 trillion, free only)
27% Federation (20 trillion)
14% Republic (9.6 trillion.)
11% (8.4 trillion)

=81% of Empire space population.

I guestimated 9-10 trillion in the Republic, was spot on. But my 8.3 trillion Minmatar in the Republic guess was off, there are actually less at 6.5 trillion.

It is unclear what the remaining 19% of people are. It's definitely not the full Amarr slave population (as that would push the number over 100%). It's possible that the total number is intended to include Minmatar slaves (but not the other slaves), since the original version of the Amarr demographics did give a percentage-of-Empire-space-population value to Minmatar slaves (but not other slaves). Though that only gets us to 95% and so would still leave an unidentified 5%.

[Nauplius]

What if the total slave population could fit in?

On page 042 it says the slave population is "mostly drawn from people of Minmatar extraction".  That would mean an upper bound for the non-Minmatar slave population of 10.712 Trillion (any more and "most" of the slaves would be non-Minmatar).

On the other hand, on page 126 it says the Amarr Empire relies on labor "from an enormous stock of slaves numbering in the dozens of trillions".  That is inconsistent with a mostly-Minmatar slave population, which has an upper population bound of 21.4 Trillion.

[Samira Kernher]

It doesn't, since we have hard numbers for it (they just weren't put in the book for whatever silly reason).

The actual figure for percentage of enslaved people in the Empire is 49% of the total population.

-CCP Falcon

From when I asked him about the population numbers. 49% of the total population, with a total free population of 21.4 trillion, leads to 20.6 trillion slaves, of which 51% of the slaves are Minmatar (at 10.7 trillion).

That number is consistent with the value previously given in EVElopedia.

While exact numbers are difficult to come by, because of the sheer number of slaves, it is estimated that between 50% and 75% of the Empire's current slave stock are Minmatar. All of these slaves come from lines that have been enslaved for less than 9 generations.

- Slavery

So at 20.6 trillion, that definitely goes over 100% based on the numbers we have. 59 trillion is 81%, which makes 73.3 trillion the 100%. 73.3 minus 59 trillion is 14 trillion, which is much less than the total slave count and 4 trillion more than the 'just Minmatar slaves' count. So there's an unidentified number no matter what way you go.

[Samira Kernher]

So I'm thinking about just ignoring the 'total Empire space population percentage' and going on the raw population numbers. Less complicated than trying to figure out what they were intending.

[Elmund Egivand]

I'm not particularly pleased about the Minmatar section, especially the short story part. Why of all things must it be about slavery instead of about an emancipated slave trying to get his bearings in the new Tribal order?

Also not enough Minmatar art.

[Samira Kernher]

Agreed. I don't think the Minmatar chapter is necessarily bad, so much as it didn't go into what it should have. They wrote a chapter about the Minmatar, rather than the Minmatar Republic, and so they wasted too much page space on describing Minmatar activities outside the Republic.

And yeah, the short story being about a slave was the wrong way to go. It should have been about someone living in the Republic.

[Elmund Egivand]

The other thing I do not quite like about the book is the Amarr chapter, which seems to make it a point to bring up slavery over and over and over again. Also, the Amarr faith system isn't discussed in much details. Whole chunks about governance and politics, another whole chunks about slavery, nothing but references to The Scriptures, some snippets on what The Scriptures are and another huge chunk about slavery with smaller chunks interspersed into other chunks.

On the other hand, I felt that the Gallente chapter was relatively well written. It discusses alot about their democratic systems, and the times democracy failed, the different players of the Federation and exploring the multiple angles of the Federation, from the left to the right, from the Jin-Mei's caste system to the once-primitive Manarr slave-taking ways, from wealthy to destitute and that little thing about the Gallente smug cultural superiority and passive indoctrination of the Gallente way. The short story portion itself is also pretty well written, showing very well what the character thinks of his position, and of others and his naivete when dealing with the Civire musician.

[Esna Pitoojee]

The other thing I do not quite like about the book is the Amarr chapter, which seems to make it a point to bring up slavery over and over and over again. Also, the Amarr faith system isn't discussed in much details. Whole chunks about governance and politics, another whole chunks about slavery, nothing but references to The Scriptures, some snippets on what The Scriptures are and another huge chunk about slavery with smaller chunks interspersed into other chunks.

On the other hand, I felt that the Gallente chapter was relatively well written. It discusses alot about their democratic systems, and the times democracy failed, the different players of the Federation and exploring the multiple angles of the Federation, from the left to the right, from the Jin-Mei's caste system to the once-primitive Manarr slave-taking ways, from wealthy to destitute and that little thing about the Gallente smug cultural superiority and passive indoctrination of the Gallente way. The short story portion itself is also pretty well written, showing very well what the character thinks of his position, and of others and his naivete when dealing with the Civire musician.

This was my major disappointment with the Amarr chapter as well. Compared to the fairly nuanced Gallente chapter, the Amarr felt like it was saying "so, they're racist imperialist slavers, and everything else is secondary." Compared to the relatively complex stuff we've picked up over the years, this felt like a huge step back in the portrayal of the Amarr.

[Samira Kernher]

I didn't see anything out of place with the stuff I've already read, save the one thing Nico pointed out in the other thread. I was especially glad to see it firmly stated that the 'True Amarr are the Chosen by culture and Scripture', as it's always been the case but was largely left out of the recent EVElopedia articles despite the fact being such an essential part of the culture.

They do go into slaves-should-not-be-treated-overly-poorly, but that's primarily detailed in the Amarr and Minmatar short stories rather than the Amarr chapter text (which mostly just repeats and summarizes everything on EVElopedia already).

I would have liked to see more on the religious rituals and daily culture in the Amarr chapter, and the Minmatar chapter. The Amarr short story did give us some stuff in that regard, at least.

I think the thing I dislike the most is the requirement of capsuleers being super physically fit. DUSTies are the physical ones, we're supposed to be the brains-in-machines.


Overall, I think the big problem with Source was really that it was trying to do too much in one book. I'd really like to see individual source books for each empire, rather than trying to scrunch everything into one book. Page space requirements heavily limit how much detail is available. Caldari for example get a ton of cultural stuff because they have only a page of history. Amarr have very little because so much of their pages are reserved for the history. Minmatar have less info about Republic culture because having so many tribes and Minmatar outside the Republic necessitated a lot of space on that.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Oh, I agree that it didn't put in a whole lot of new material. My issue is that if someone reads just Source, they would come to the conclusion that all there is to Amarr at all is just racism, imperialism, and slavery; this is not at all accurate. Not every Amarr is a bigoted, isolationist slaveholder... but if I didn't already know my lore pretty heavily, I'd not get that picture from Source.

[Jace]

Oh, I agree that it didn't put in a whole lot of new material. My issue is that if someone reads just Source, they would come to the conclusion that all there is to Amarr at all is just racism, imperialism, and slavery; this is not at all accurate. Not every Amarr is a bigoted, isolationist slaveholder... but if I didn't already know my lore pretty heavily, I'd not get that picture from Source.

I agree, though there is a lot of other PF that a cursory glance gives that impression.

[Samira Kernher]

Oh, I agree that it didn't put in a whole lot of new material. My issue is that if someone reads just Source, they would come to the conclusion that all there is to Amarr at all is just racism, imperialism, and slavery; this is not at all accurate. Not every Amarr is a bigoted, isolationist slaveholder... but if I didn't already know my lore pretty heavily, I'd not get that picture from Source.

Yeah. Like I said, the big problem is they tried to do too much in one book. It works as a core book, but ideally there should be separate books for each of the factions that goes into intricate detail of all their facets.

Maybe if Source was successful enough, we might see that. But I doubt it.