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[Gaven Lok ri]

I can't look away from the live feeds. The only ends I see to this are either Nika revolt (http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/procop-wars1.asp)/Tiananmen square style military crackdown or Tahrir Square style military support of revolt.

Middle ground doesn't seem particularly likely the more I watch this. 

And the "truce" is a clear farce.

[Arista Shahni]

I agree.  And conversely, I can't watch them. :/

[Gaven Lok ri]

For me its like watching a trainwreck, so I understand not being able to watch it

[Arista Shahni]

When I tried to listen a woman was talking(likely on the stage).  I can't understadnd Ukranian, but you could simply hear her fear, deperation, and simultaneously, determination.  It didn't matter that I couldn't understand the language, it killed me.

[Vic Van Meter]

There's a designer in our studio who is Canadian, but a child of Ukranian immigrants.  She has the same reaction.

In all honesty, I think it makes it harder to keep things in perspective.  Peace seems unlikely and the situation is deteriorating, but I can think of a dozen places off the top of my head I'd prefer living in Ukraine right now to.  It's by no means a good situation, but there's worse out there.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I hate it when I end up being right about depressing things.

This is what a "truce" looks like: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26268620

[Arista Shahni]

In all honesty, I think it makes it harder to keep things in perspective. 

To be blunt and irrational?

No. Fucking. Shit.

If it was happening in your hometown, would you look at it in a cold uneeling objective way when people you are reated to are being shot in the streets by live rounds, or sit around and play with the "idea", like it is is unreal?

It is outside of your "monkeyphere".  To you, these people have no identity, no face.  To you they're not real.  Their issues are not your and other than a passive interest and what it could possibly ultimately mean you [i[you[/i]is more relevant to you on an emotional level than what's happening to people you don't know and that your brain, [biologically] can't percieve as "real".

People having it worse doesn't lessen the horror.  Don't play broken leg broken back and say because there are broken backs a broken leg is less significant, painful, or not worth the same.

See?  Angry and irrational response.  If it was your extended family behind burning tires and risking being fired at by LIVE rounds, you wouldn't say, well fuck that family member, people are dying in some other random location so their pain is irrelevant, unless you are utterly soul-less.

I know this is Backstage and all?  But guess what.  This isnt' some EVE plot and shouldnt be discussed and dissected that way.

[Vic Van Meter]

In all honesty, I think it makes it harder to keep things in perspective. 

To be blunt and irrational?

No. Fucking. Shit.

If it was happening in your hometown, would you look at it in a cold uneeling objective way when people you are reated to are being shot in the streets by live rounds, or sit around and play with the "idea", like it is is unreal?

It is outside of your "monkeyphere".  To you, these people have no identity, no face.  To you they're not real.  Their issues are not your and other than a passive interest and what it could possibly ultimately mean you [i[you[/i]is more relevant to you on an emotional level than what's happening to people you don't know and that your brain, [biologically] can't percieve as "real".

People having it worse doesn't lessen the horror.  Don't play broken leg broken back and say because there are broken backs a broken leg is less significant, painful, or not worth the same.

See?  Angry and irrational response.  If it was your extended family behind burning tires and risking being fired at by LIVE rounds, you wouldn't say, well fuck that family member, people are dying in some other random location so their pain is irrelevant, unless you are utterly soul-less.

I know this is Backstage and all?  But guess what.  This isnt' some EVE plot and shouldnt be discussed and dissected that way.

Oh I'm totally fine with that response, you just have to realize that I'm not you.  It's not that these people aren't "real" in some way, it's just that I've seen Gonaives so I sort of have a more clinical response.  My family isn't there, and I've seen half-cannibalized bodies with my own eyes.  You'd be amazed how detached you can get.

Hence the discussion we're having and why we can examine it at arms' length.  If it was Columbus that was trying to oust an oppressive government, I might be a little more involved, though that might be because I live here.  We can't all share your perspective because we don't all know people in the conflict, and I certainly don't because I have seen worse.  If I can discuss the plight of other countries in worse situations objectively, you can't really blame me for being able to do it about Ukraine.

Again, we understand your response, but it's hard to feel like I should apologize for mine because I don't share your background.

[Arista Shahni]

We (you and I) are not having a discussion.

You instead made a statement that seems like it was directed at my thoughts when I plainly said I wouldn't enter a dialogue, and making a comparsion to my own history:

 "My coworker is of Ukranian descent"

in a post direcly after one of my own.  The only word you exclued was "also", but everything else in the content of your paragraph of was an echo of my reasoning as to why it was not a point of discussion for me.

I'm quite aware I'm not you.  I am not the type who - apparenty - has the capability of walkig into a funeral home, greeting the wife, and then calmly telling her the death of her husband isn't that bad as hundeds of others also died that day and, therefore lessening the tragedy of her personal experience, which you clearly did:

  "It's by no means a good situation, but there's worse out there."

 It's very easy to live on an armchair. 

 Empathy for others should be easy, but apparently for some, it is not.

Whether you are "objectively" right or not, you're being at best socially awkward about it in the art of human interaction, or at worst, a dick who doesn't care what your words mean to someone else - only that you get to say your piece and feel right about it.

I'm done.

 

[Vic Van Meter]

We (you and I) are not having a discussion.

You instead made a statement that seems like it was directed at my thoughts when I plainly said I wouldn't enter a dialogue, and making a comparsion to my own history:

 "My coworker is of Ukranian descent"

in a post direcly after one of my own.  The only word you exclued was "also", but everything else in the cotent of your paragraph of was an echo of my reasoning as to why it was not a point of discussion for me.

I'm quite aware I'm not you.  I am not the type who - apparenty - has the capability of walkig into a funeral home, greeting the wife, and then calmly telling her the death of her husband isn't that bad as hundeds of others also died that day and, therefore lessening the tragedy of her personal experience, which you clearly did:

  "It's by no means a good situation, but there's worse out there."

 It's very easy to live on an armchair. 

 Empathy for others should be easy, but apparently for some, it is not.

Whether you are "objectively" right or not, you're being at best socially awkward about it in the art of human interaction, or at worst, a dick who doesn't care what your words mean to someone else - only that you get to say your piece and feel right about it.

I'm done.

 

Actually, by "we" I meant the rather clinical discussion we on the IGS were collectively having about it before, not you and I.  If I really wanted to have a personal discussion with you about Ukraine, I'd PM you.  There are other people involved here, and our previous conversation was what I was referring to.

I won't go into my politics on humanity; I've done a lot of that.  I also won't go into how I'm probably supposed to react to people's anger; I've done a lot of that as well.  What I'm explaining is why this conversation was going on and why we can compare it to the Syrian conflict, Egyptian crisis, Haiti, and so on.  Coming into that conversation and saying it's all too personal to talk about prompted me to respond that I knew someone who had that same reaction for the same reason, it just isn't mine.

If you're offended, I'm not trying, but then again people have said a ton of things to offend me, my country, my hometown, causes I've held dear to my heart, et cetera.  I can't really come out and lambaste people for it; they have no reason to share any of the ideals or prejudices I have.

I'm not saying you should suck it up and get over it, but you brought up that people having it worse doesn't lessen the horror.  For you, maybe not, for me, maybe you're right and I've become less sensitive to human suffering.  I'm not really an armchair guy and I do deal in some pretty bad situations, not necessarily my own.  There was a guy that came into the free clinic last week to have a growth checked out.  I saw it on his neck; it's almost certainly malignant melanoma that he's let fester for a year.  I don't know what his diagnosis was, it's not something I'm really qualified to do, but I can guess.

So, yes, I tend to compare the Ukrainian issue to other issues going on in the world and I expect people don't take my feelings into account when they're talking about things I especially care about.  I understand your reaction, you don't necessarily have to understand mine.  I'm just telling you why I have it in the same vein you told me why you've had yours.

I wouldn't worry about being angry or irrational at me though; I'm sometimes worried I'm unfeeling in some way, but I'm pretty well bulletproof to people's anger.  I don't take anything personally anymore, so on the contrary, feel free to fire away how you feel about it.  It's probably worth getting that angry perspective since, as I said, I don't necessarily have it.  That doesn't make how you feel somehow less valuable, it's just a different perspective.

So whether I'm objectively right or not isn't relevant.  Feel free to turn loose on me instead of just clamming up.  I'm probably the best person on the IGS to be angry at; I don't get angry and don't necessarily care that much about "winning" anything.

So please do keep adding to the conversation.  I might know worse situations and worse things to compare it to (and I probably shall) but you're probably more qualified than most to actually discuss the Ukrainian situation in particular, rational or not.

[Jace]

It is now my goal to actually get Vic angry at some point.   

[Vic Van Meter]

It is now my goal to actually get Vic angry at some point.   

 

It's even notoriously hard to do in real life.  My wife once complained that she didn't think I took our marriage seriously because I've raised my voice twice to her in the entire ten years we've been together, and she clearly remembers both times.

[Arista Shahni]

  There was a guy that came into the free clinic last week to have a growth checked out.  I saw it on his neck; it's almost certainly malignant melanoma that he's let fester for a year.  I don't know what his diagnosis was, it's not something I'm really qualified to do, but I can guess.

I worked as a clinical reasearcher in the Radiation Oncology field for ten years.  I have seen shit that makes hardended doctors vomit.

I expect people don't take my feelings into account when they're talking about things I especially care about.

This is a dangerous assumption and flavors the whole of your behavior, turning your thoughts into a speech/monologue twhoe ultimate valu you ahve pretermined is only to be weighed by you and not the other person in what should be dialogue.

.. feel free to fire away how you feel about it.  It's probably worth getting that angry perspective since, as I said, I don't necessarily have it.  That doesn't make how you feel somehow less valuable, it's just a different perspective.

 

I own a punching bag already.

... and don't necessarily care that much about "winning" anything.

In observation, this does not seem apparent.

I might know worse situations and worse things to compare it to (and I probably shall)

Another dangerous assumption.

Again. The initial topic of discussion -- I will no longer touch on.  I am not "clamming up" and refuse to be, as this request to continue implies, a performing monkey for someone who openly admits my emotional state will achieve no empathy. 

I am exhibiting a trait known as "self restraint".

Perhaps you could expand your own studies on its benefits in regards to human interaction.

As an aside, I had an ex like that once who would never fight or emote.  Eventually I discovered that the man who I used to say about "he is my rock", was in fact, an emotionally stunted, actual, rock.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

I think it's basically safe to say that Ukraine is in the full swing of a revolution, with the west and Russia meddling for their own interests. Let's not forget that it was the EU who first gave the ultimatum "it's either us or Russia, no deal with both". Putin, obviously not wanting to lose yet more influence in the world, pulled some strings and attempted to ensure it was his side that won out. Now the west is actively encouraging the protestors and suggesting it is their right to depose the government, stopping just short of publically calling for an armed revolt. Russia, of course, is going to try every dirty trick in the book to stop that from happening.

It's like the cold war all over again, except I think Russia might be dangerously desperate, and the west dangerously cocky. This also has greated suggestions for the greater Balkans region.

[Jace]

Aldrith, why do you assume Russia is desperate here? On the contrary, the West seems to be acting far more desperate. Ultimatums, encouraging armed rebellion, etc. Putin knows his influence is substantial, and the West is finally admitting it by taking his influence seriously.