Print

Please login or register.
1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever
Login with username, password and session length

[Jace]

So it's hard to say that there are really two sides when one is so heavily armed and the other so vocal.  It's hard to say, at least from where I'm standing which opinion is actually in the majority.  I'd hazard to say the pro-E.U. side only because, if it had just been some relatively minor band of anarchists, they'd have been gone by now.  But it's hard to speculate.

I find much it interesting on a broad scale in that Putin has been slowly gaining more and more international influence, but due to his autocratic tendencies, people tend to write him off. I think that is severely mistaken. I know I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but everyone in my department nodded and said, "It's about time someone admitted it," when Forbes declared Putin the most powerful person in the world.

Edit Essentially, I am saying the reverse of some here. The US is losing power, Russia is gaining it. EU is caught in the middle, especially with Merkel not being as powerful as she once was.

Honestly, I think it's an old metric that doesn't matter much anymore.  I think people like to focus on the U.S. since we were sort of "the last superpower" around, but the most powerful people in the world aren't politicians anymore.  I think, rather than being post-American, the world is becoming post-nationalist, and it has a lot to do with the way information is spread uncontrollably through the internet.

Autocracies tend to retain their power longer since they had so much state control to begin with, so Putin might be losing power slower than everyone else, but even he came out of his last election looking pretty bruised.  If there's desperation, its on politicians that are really fighting to retain their power in the face of global populism.  People everywhere are seeing how other people really live, unfiltered, and it kind of shakes the foundation of culture.

I don't want to be too blunt, but this is incorrect regarding nationalism. Nationalism is absolutely on the rise world-wide, in a dramatic fashion. When I have more time, I can send you scholarly articles and book links about it, if you would like.

[Lyn Farel]

I think it's basically safe to say that Ukraine is in the full swing of a revolution, with the west and Russia meddling for their own interests. Let's not forget that it was the EU who first gave the ultimatum "it's either us or Russia, no deal with both". Putin, obviously not wanting to lose yet more influence in the world, pulled some strings and attempted to ensure it was his side that won out. Now the west is actively encouraging the protestors and suggesting it is their right to depose the government, stopping just short of publically calling for an armed revolt. Russia, of course, is going to try every dirty trick in the book to stop that from happening.

It's like the cold war all over again, except I think Russia might be dangerously desperate, and the west dangerously cocky. This also has greated suggestions for the greater Balkans region.

Where did you hear that ?

I read everywhere that Putin threatened to break any free trade Ukraine already have with Russia if an EU deal is concluded, as a mean of protectionism (and political pressure).

[Gaven Lok ri]

http://world.time.com/2014/02/20/ukrainian-presidents-allies-start-to-abandon-him/

[Vic Van Meter]

So it's hard to say that there are really two sides when one is so heavily armed and the other so vocal.  It's hard to say, at least from where I'm standing which opinion is actually in the majority.  I'd hazard to say the pro-E.U. side only because, if it had just been some relatively minor band of anarchists, they'd have been gone by now.  But it's hard to speculate.

I find much it interesting on a broad scale in that Putin has been slowly gaining more and more international influence, but due to his autocratic tendencies, people tend to write him off. I think that is severely mistaken. I know I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but everyone in my department nodded and said, "It's about time someone admitted it," when Forbes declared Putin the most powerful person in the world.

Edit Essentially, I am saying the reverse of some here. The US is losing power, Russia is gaining it. EU is caught in the middle, especially with Merkel not being as powerful as she once was.

Honestly, I think it's an old metric that doesn't matter much anymore.  I think people like to focus on the U.S. since we were sort of "the last superpower" around, but the most powerful people in the world aren't politicians anymore.  I think, rather than being post-American, the world is becoming post-nationalist, and it has a lot to do with the way information is spread uncontrollably through the internet.

Autocracies tend to retain their power longer since they had so much state control to begin with, so Putin might be losing power slower than everyone else, but even he came out of his last election looking pretty bruised.  If there's desperation, its on politicians that are really fighting to retain their power in the face of global populism.  People everywhere are seeing how other people really live, unfiltered, and it kind of shakes the foundation of culture.

I don't want to be too blunt, but this is incorrect regarding nationalism. Nationalism is absolutely on the rise world-wide, in a dramatic fashion. When I have more time, I can send you scholarly articles and book links about it, if you would like.

Yeah, go ahead, I wouldn't mind reading them.  I'd read in a few places that it was actually starting to die, just according to surveys.  I'll try to find it when I'm not fighting the Revit lighting engine.  It essentially said that, while people were still identifying by their nationalities, they were more and more becoming receptive to ideas from other nations and cultures.  It used to be that, say, there was an American way of life that we could accept as a standard.  That's no longer really the case, especially in the field of design and lifestyle, but also in politics.  That's why so many people are no longer accepting this kind of bullshit.

Used to be that if your government sided with someone, you didn't say anything.  You supported the government because, you know, in our case, "FUR 'MURCA!"  That's not the case so much nowadays because not only do we generally have more resources to know what's going on outside our world, we tend to associate people less with their host governments.  Such as, I actually know a few Russians from my days designing Starbucks that I keep in touch with.  I don't associate them with Putin's right-wing stunts anymore than they accuse me of hacking their phones.

I know I more and more see this political wrangling as a sort of spectator sport that, unfortunately, tends to run up huge debts and gets people killed.  I think I'm mostly over seeing the government as an organization acting in my expressed interests.

So where nationalism used to unite people under a flag against outside influences, now it seems to be that people aren't satisfied with being told what is satisfactory and that they definitely have it better than everyone else.  Information just moves too fast nowadays for that farce to really continue.

[Vic Van Meter]

"The most painful defections for Yanukovych, however, have come from among the ranks of Ukraine’s powerful oligarchs, the billionaires who have underwritten his political career for a decade. As the U.S. and Europe have moved to impose sanctions against the President’s allies, these titans of industry have released statements chastising the government for failing to pursue the course of dialogue rather than confrontation. “Of course, the voice of big business is important in any country,” Liovochkin, the President’s former chief of staff, wrote in his remarks to TIME on Monday. “Big business is interested in reforms, progress and rapid development of our country,” he said. “During the current crisis these motivations are paramount to all of the representatives of big business you mentioned.”

The current violence clearly does not serve those motivations, nor does it improve the chances of the oligarchs obtaining loans from western banks or doing business with western companies. So it is no surprise that they have been among the first to distance themselves from the President, as have the lawmakers they control in parliament."
Read more: Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych's Allies Start Deserting Him | TIME.com http://world.time.com/2014/02/20/ukrainian-presidents-allies-start-to-abandon-him/#ixzz2tthLcrxZ

If you've managed to unite the huddled masses and the billionaire industry leaders, you've essentially lost power in whatever country you're in.

[Aldrith Shutaq]

I think it's basically safe to say that Ukraine is in the full swing of a revolution, with the west and Russia meddling for their own interests. Let's not forget that it was the EU who first gave the ultimatum "it's either us or Russia, no deal with both". Putin, obviously not wanting to lose yet more influence in the world, pulled some strings and attempted to ensure it was his side that won out. Now the west is actively encouraging the protestors and suggesting it is their right to depose the government, stopping just short of publically calling for an armed revolt. Russia, of course, is going to try every dirty trick in the book to stop that from happening.

It's like the cold war all over again, except I think Russia might be dangerously desperate, and the west dangerously cocky. This also has greated suggestions for the greater Balkans region.

I read everywhere that Putin threatened to break any free trade Ukraine already have with Russia if an EU deal is concluded, as a mean of protectionism (and political pressure).

Both are true. Here's from the Wiki regarding Ukraine/EU relations:

The same day President Yanukovych stated Ukraine will "do its best" to satisfy the EU's requirements.[6] At the time President Yanukovych was also in negotiations with Russia to "find the right model" for cooperation with the Customs Union of Belarus, Kazakhstan and Russia.[6] But also on 25 February 2013 President of the European Commission José Manuel Barroso made it clear that "one country cannot at the same time be a member of a customs union and be in a deep common free-trade area with the European Union".[6]

Basically Yanukovych was trying to make trade deals with both the EU and Russian bloc at the same time, and neither side wanted Ukraine to do something so compromising.

[Lyn Farel]

Well yeah, indeed. Nobody without a bit of sanity would allow that to happen, be it the EU or Russia. That would be completely silly.

[Lyn Farel]

So it's hard to say that there are really two sides when one is so heavily armed and the other so vocal.  It's hard to say, at least from where I'm standing which opinion is actually in the majority.  I'd hazard to say the pro-E.U. side only because, if it had just been some relatively minor band of anarchists, they'd have been gone by now.  But it's hard to speculate.

I find much it interesting on a broad scale in that Putin has been slowly gaining more and more international influence, but due to his autocratic tendencies, people tend to write him off. I think that is severely mistaken. I know I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but everyone in my department nodded and said, "It's about time someone admitted it," when Forbes declared Putin the most powerful person in the world.

Edit Essentially, I am saying the reverse of some here. The US is losing power, Russia is gaining it. EU is caught in the middle, especially with Merkel not being as powerful as she once was.

Honestly, I think it's an old metric that doesn't matter much anymore.  I think people like to focus on the U.S. since we were sort of "the last superpower" around, but the most powerful people in the world aren't politicians anymore.  I think, rather than being post-American, the world is becoming post-nationalist, and it has a lot to do with the way information is spread uncontrollably through the internet.

Autocracies tend to retain their power longer since they had so much state control to begin with, so Putin might be losing power slower than everyone else, but even he came out of his last election looking pretty bruised.  If there's desperation, its on politicians that are really fighting to retain their power in the face of global populism.  People everywhere are seeing how other people really live, unfiltered, and it kind of shakes the foundation of culture.

I don't want to be too blunt, but this is incorrect regarding nationalism. Nationalism is absolutely on the rise world-wide, in a dramatic fashion. When I have more time, I can send you scholarly articles and book links about it, if you would like.

Yeah, go ahead, I wouldn't mind reading them.  I'd read in a few places that it was actually starting to die, just according to surveys.  I'll try to find it when I'm not fighting the Revit lighting engine.  It essentially said that, while people were still identifying by their nationalities, they were more and more becoming receptive to ideas from other nations and cultures.  It used to be that, say, there was an American way of life that we could accept as a standard.  That's no longer really the case, especially in the field of design and lifestyle, but also in politics.  That's why so many people are no longer accepting this kind of bullshit.

Used to be that if your government sided with someone, you didn't say anything.  You supported the government because, you know, in our case, "FUR 'MURCA!"  That's not the case so much nowadays because not only do we generally have more resources to know what's going on outside our world, we tend to associate people less with their host governments.  Such as, I actually know a few Russians from my days designing Starbucks that I keep in touch with.  I don't associate them with Putin's right-wing stunts anymore than they accuse me of hacking their phones.

I know I more and more see this political wrangling as a sort of spectator sport that, unfortunately, tends to run up huge debts and gets people killed.  I think I'm mostly over seeing the government as an organization acting in my expressed interests.

So where nationalism used to unite people under a flag against outside influences, now it seems to be that people aren't satisfied with being told what is satisfactory and that they definitely have it better than everyone else.  Information just moves too fast nowadays for that farce to really continue.

I think that you may be confusing national support for one's own government - which is probably fading away slowly as you say - and actual, true populist nationalism emerging from the masses as a direct counter tendency to the former.

I see that contrast everyday around, where people get more and more disgusted by politics and the current state of affairs and turn themselves to more... radical alternatives.

[Vic Van Meter]

So it's hard to say that there are really two sides when one is so heavily armed and the other so vocal.  It's hard to say, at least from where I'm standing which opinion is actually in the majority.  I'd hazard to say the pro-E.U. side only because, if it had just been some relatively minor band of anarchists, they'd have been gone by now.  But it's hard to speculate.

I find much it interesting on a broad scale in that Putin has been slowly gaining more and more international influence, but due to his autocratic tendencies, people tend to write him off. I think that is severely mistaken. I know I mentioned this earlier in the thread, but everyone in my department nodded and said, "It's about time someone admitted it," when Forbes declared Putin the most powerful person in the world.

Edit Essentially, I am saying the reverse of some here. The US is losing power, Russia is gaining it. EU is caught in the middle, especially with Merkel not being as powerful as she once was.

Honestly, I think it's an old metric that doesn't matter much anymore.  I think people like to focus on the U.S. since we were sort of "the last superpower" around, but the most powerful people in the world aren't politicians anymore.  I think, rather than being post-American, the world is becoming post-nationalist, and it has a lot to do with the way information is spread uncontrollably through the internet.

Autocracies tend to retain their power longer since they had so much state control to begin with, so Putin might be losing power slower than everyone else, but even he came out of his last election looking pretty bruised.  If there's desperation, its on politicians that are really fighting to retain their power in the face of global populism.  People everywhere are seeing how other people really live, unfiltered, and it kind of shakes the foundation of culture.

I don't want to be too blunt, but this is incorrect regarding nationalism. Nationalism is absolutely on the rise world-wide, in a dramatic fashion. When I have more time, I can send you scholarly articles and book links about it, if you would like.

Yeah, go ahead, I wouldn't mind reading them.  I'd read in a few places that it was actually starting to die, just according to surveys.  I'll try to find it when I'm not fighting the Revit lighting engine.  It essentially said that, while people were still identifying by their nationalities, they were more and more becoming receptive to ideas from other nations and cultures.  It used to be that, say, there was an American way of life that we could accept as a standard.  That's no longer really the case, especially in the field of design and lifestyle, but also in politics.  That's why so many people are no longer accepting this kind of bullshit.

Used to be that if your government sided with someone, you didn't say anything.  You supported the government because, you know, in our case, "FUR 'MURCA!"  That's not the case so much nowadays because not only do we generally have more resources to know what's going on outside our world, we tend to associate people less with their host governments.  Such as, I actually know a few Russians from my days designing Starbucks that I keep in touch with.  I don't associate them with Putin's right-wing stunts anymore than they accuse me of hacking their phones.

I know I more and more see this political wrangling as a sort of spectator sport that, unfortunately, tends to run up huge debts and gets people killed.  I think I'm mostly over seeing the government as an organization acting in my expressed interests.

So where nationalism used to unite people under a flag against outside influences, now it seems to be that people aren't satisfied with being told what is satisfactory and that they definitely have it better than everyone else.  Information just moves too fast nowadays for that farce to really continue.

I think that you may be confusing national support for one's own government - which is probably fading away slowly as you say - and actual, true populist nationalism emerging from the masses as a direct counter tendency to the former.

I see that contrast everyday around, where people get more and more disgusted by politics and the current state of affairs and turn themselves to more... radical alternatives.

Yeah, I even tried to get a visa to work in London.  My ancestors would be shamed.

I actually seriously tried to move to London before moving back to Columbus.  I really loved my study abroad there.  Alas, it ain't easy to get a visa to the U.K.

[Gaven Lok ri]

http://channel9000.net/updated-map-kiev-02-20-2014.jpg

[orange]

http://channel9000.net/updated-map-kiev-02-20-2014.jpg

The lack of legend on the map makes it hard to understand exactly what is being shown.

[Vic Van Meter]

http://channel9000.net/updated-map-kiev-02-20-2014.jpg

The lack of legend on the map makes it hard to understand exactly what is being shown.

Red vs Blue?

[Gaven Lok ri]

Rough Legend:

Red=protester positions
Blue=Government positions
Solid lines=barricades
dots=population density, I think. Not 100% sure.
Triangles=tents? Maybe not sure.

Two days ago the police had advanced to the column in the main square. The fire barricades cut right across the point where the column is in the middle of the square.

Yesterday, the protesters have advanced about a block in each direction and set up new barricades in the streets. Loyalists to the president have begun barricading positions around the presidential admin building.

[Esna Pitoojee]

[Picture of protestors with two artillery pieces.]

Seems to be a picture from Lviv, rather than Kiev, but the protestors already have the "access to hardware", that would be seen by some as reason to order military action.

And the news said, that Russian forces are already on the ground and in action in Kiev. Actual Russian paramilitary police units.

So, this awoke the inner military nerd in me and I set off to find out just what these protesters had gotten their hands on.

First off: These guns do not correspond to any weapon in use by the Ukrainian military. I thus find their claim that the guns were "seized from government forces" to be mildly suspect, although I suppose the various pro-government paramilitaries could have dug them out of a storage shed somewhere.

Second: In other pictures, you can see these things aren't really in tip-top shape. They've got paint flaking off, some bad rust in places, and generally don't look like they were just brought up from an active depot recently.

So what are they? Well, I can't be sure, but a couple of characteristics (two-piercing muzzle brake, lacking large recoil pistons on top or bottom of the barrel, wavy gun shield with opening on the left) suggest to me that they might be 1950s-vintage Soviet 85mm D-44 guns. These were in use in huge numbers by the Soviet Union, and I wouldn't be surprised if a couple got left in a Ukrainian warehouse somewhere at the end of Soviet rule.

tl;dr - Protestors grabbed a couple of old Soviet anti-tank guns, probably don't have the ammunition to fire them (to say nothing of the serviceability of the guns themselves).

[Sofia Roseburn]

Those are D-74s, the barrel is too small to be an 85mm. Of course, it's probably surplus which means that ammo is practically unavailable, training will be minimal (even considering national service) and they are useless in a city environment. Frankly, they'd be better off using grapeshot. All in all, more a visible threat than an actual one, and the BTR barricades are better at doing what needs to be done than a couple of howitzers.

e/ Apparently they are decorative pieces pulled from display outside a barracks. Unless the barrel has been poured shut they could technically be made into 122mm shotguns, although I wouldn't want to crew one.