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[Lyn Farel]

http://zyalt.livejournal.com/984735.html

Pretty interesting.

Bonus vid

[orange]

Thanks for the link and the insight it provided.

[Arista Shahni]

I and other ukranians in the tri state area had contacted our state reps and etc on this matter.  At least over 100 of us, sooo.  Fortunately the situation seems to be cooling down.

[Vic Van Meter]

I'm sure Ukraine has a lot of internal divisions, just like anyone else.  I think the one thing that could unity all of them would be the president essentially bending down in front of Putin, grabbing his own ankles, and thanking him after he'd finished.  If the American example hadn't been clear enough, this kind of political gaming doesn't work anymore.  The internet makes this kind of stuff hard to hide and really difficult to spin if you're looking for your information in multiple sources.

It would take a miracle for the president to step down, but at least, for once, it looks like the police aren't out to kill anyone and the protesters aren't just raising Hell for Hell's sake.  Hopefully the government gives in; fair snap elections can't do anything but verify a vote of no-confidence anyway.

The BBC recently had a piece about a protest that happened in the east, in the heart of Yanukovych's power base, where this kind of thing wasn't happening before.  Does anyone know how widespread the anti-government sentiment is outside of Kiev?

[Shiki]

Does anyone know how widespread the anti-government sentiment is outside of Kiev?

Not sure if this answers your question, but perhaps its a start, apparently accurate as of 29 January. There's also a lot of info not covered here that other graphics have shown, but I'm on mobile presently...

[Spoiler][/spoiler]

I have been glued to a collection of streams from Kyiv since the 22nd, but as a non-Ukrainian with no political or historical acumen with regard to this region, I have no background against which to verify the numerous conflicting interests. In the present state of things, I am not optimistic about the future.

[Lyn Farel]

I'm sure Ukraine has a lot of internal divisions, just like anyone else.  I think the one thing that could unity all of them would be the president essentially bending down in front of Putin, grabbing his own ankles, and thanking him after he'd finished.  If the American example hadn't been clear enough, this kind of political gaming doesn't work anymore.  The internet makes this kind of stuff hard to hide and really difficult to spin if you're looking for your information in multiple sources.

It would take a miracle for the president to step down, but at least, for once, it looks like the police aren't out to kill anyone and the protesters aren't just raising Hell for Hell's sake.  Hopefully the government gives in; fair snap elections can't do anything but verify a vote of no-confidence anyway.

The BBC recently had a piece about a protest that happened in the east, in the heart of Yanukovych's power base, where this kind of thing wasn't happening before.  Does anyone know how widespread the anti-government sentiment is outside of Kiev?

The problem is that we live in a western influenced media soup.

The main issue from what I understand in Ukraine is that the country is divided by two very different cultures and populations. One is pro Europe, mostly located in the west of the country (country side), and the other one is mostly constituted of the east Ukraine (industrial cities) as well as rich influential industrials that are pro Russia. The problem becomes obvious that Putin promised them to end the free market zone they share with Russia if they start to make deals with the EU. But in any case, it would mean leaving a profitable market with Russia, that brings a certain amount of wealth in the country, to start trading with Europe, which does not obviously offers the same kind of opportunities, so they are at a loss.

In any case, those two cultures are very, very different, and have always been rather antagonistic. Especially since the fall of the soviet union when it became more visible, from what I understand.

[Vic Van Meter]

I'm sure Ukraine has a lot of internal divisions, just like anyone else.  I think the one thing that could unity all of them would be the president essentially bending down in front of Putin, grabbing his own ankles, and thanking him after he'd finished.  If the American example hadn't been clear enough, this kind of political gaming doesn't work anymore.  The internet makes this kind of stuff hard to hide and really difficult to spin if you're looking for your information in multiple sources.

It would take a miracle for the president to step down, but at least, for once, it looks like the police aren't out to kill anyone and the protesters aren't just raising Hell for Hell's sake.  Hopefully the government gives in; fair snap elections can't do anything but verify a vote of no-confidence anyway.

The BBC recently had a piece about a protest that happened in the east, in the heart of Yanukovych's power base, where this kind of thing wasn't happening before.  Does anyone know how widespread the anti-government sentiment is outside of Kiev?

The problem is that we live in a western influenced media soup.

The main issue from what I understand in Ukraine is that the country is divided by two very different cultures and populations. One is pro Europe, mostly located in the west of the country (country side), and the other one is mostly constituted of the east Ukraine (industrial cities) as well as rich influential industrials that are pro Russia. The problem becomes obvious that Putin promised them to end the free market zone they share with Russia if they start to make deals with the EU. But in any case, it would mean leaving a profitable market with Russia, that brings a certain amount of wealth in the country, to start trading with Europe, which does not obviously offers the same kind of opportunities, so they are at a loss.

In any case, those two cultures are very, very different, and have always been rather antagonistic. Especially since the fall of the soviet union when it became more visible, from what I understand.

I knew most of that, I had just heard that they were even rebelling in the East, which would be a bit like Texas threatening to secede because of something George W had done.  It might just be the case that Yanukovych didn't just manage to piss off the pro-European side, but he did it in such a way that he managed to piss off some of his own supporters.

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think so. I just think that both cultures are not just simply cut off from each other by an imaginary iron curtain right in the middle of the country. They mingle between each other with minorities of both factions being present on the opponent traditional territories. Thus why regional HQs under siege in the east, but not a lot of them actually occupied... That's pretty thin compared to the west of the country.

[Vic Van Meter]

I don't think so. I just think that both cultures are not just simply cut off from each other by an imaginary iron curtain right in the middle of the country. They mingle between each other with minorities of both factions being present on the opponent traditional territories. Thus why regional HQs under siege in the east, but not a lot of them actually occupied... That's pretty thin compared to the west of the country.

Maybe so.  In any case, at least the Ukrainian government seems to be trying to get this under control without killing anyone.  It might be running out of their hands, though.

[Lyn Farel]

I don't think they are stupid enough to start crushing people. I don't think they can afford to give the middle finger to the international community like Russia can. There is already now more and more accusations of abducted and tortured protestors and that will definitely help their case. Added to the imprisonment of Timochenko and the old orange revolution, I would say that they already thread on thin ice.

[Nmaro Makari]

This pic is both funny and terrifying at the same time:





Also, update, sadly not good news:

Ukraine police storm main Kiev 'Maidan' protest camp

It's now at the kind of tipping point where people are being killed in the street.

[Gaven Lok ri]

http://gawker.com/were-glued-to-this-terrifying-livestream-of-kievs-fie-1525268291

[orange]

I don't think they are stupid enough to start crushing people. I don't think they can afford to give the middle finger to the international community like Russia can. There is already now more and more accusations of abducted and tortured protestors and that will definitely help their case. Added to the imprisonment of Timochenko and the old orange revolution, I would say that they already thread on thin ice.

The thing is, they are backed by Russia.  Russia is a major trading partner.  What exactly is the international community going to do if the Ukrainian government, backed by Russia, continues to kill its own citizens to quell an uprising?

What it is doing in Syria?  What it did when Russia invaded Georgia?

Short of a massive refugee crisis, in which Ukrainians flee to Poland, Slovakia, and Hungry (NATO countries), threatening their stability security.  What exactly is the European community going to do?

[kalaratiri]

Strongly worded letter.

[Gaven Lok ri]

I think Ukraine is more comparable to the Egypt situation than it is Syria, from what I know about it. I don't think Russia comes into the equation as heavily, because I think it all comes down to what the army does if an order to use (more) force is given. Russia only comes into the picture if a significant but not decisive portion of the Ukrainian military chose to support the rebels.