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[V. Gesakaarin]

Thing is, the Caldari State is described as being a deeply militarized society. While it doesn't mean to me that Caldari spend all day on the parade grounds, or being stereotypical right-wing nationalist jingoists, a military mindset does colour a lot of how Caldari think and see the world I'd say.

When I look at the Caldari State, I see very great similarities as to how they behave and think in a general sense to societies that perceive themselves to be small, and surrounded by potential enemies, thus requiring a militarized society -- Israel, Singapore, Prussia etc.

I also think a lot of Caldari justified what they were doing as being, "Anti-Heth" and now without Heth, they seem a bit up a creek without a paddle.

Well, "Militarized" doesn't mean "Pick up a gun and fight or you suck", by any means.

While a great deal of Caldari industry is of course focused on it's military-industrial complex, and most people recieve basic military training, the vast majority - To quote the demographics article, 95% - Aren't going to even be doing any indirect fighting themselves.

But I doubt they're not viewed as proper citizens for that reason.

Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.

These days?

It's just a territorial dispute, whose primary actors on the Fed-State side is KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi for Caldari and Roden Shipyards, Blaque, and President Roden on the Fed side really. One issue among many that involve the State and Federation both internally and externally.

Hell, even if you're in a industrial concern why not actually release industry related material if you want exposure? Quarterly Reports, IPO, Share prospectus etc.

[Iwan Terpalen]

Pretty much every angle anyone might choose will have weaknesses that can be attacked by people who want to bring you down.

-"I'm putting myself and my assets on the line fighting in faction warfare."
-"That pointless forever-war? You're wasting lives and resources better spent elsewhere."

-"Okay, so I just respond to State event call-to-arms."
-"You mean the ones that have lately been universally morally dodgy, derpy, or both?"

-"We're in nullsec flying a Caldari flag and-"
-"..-enriching yourselves while buying off your patriotic duty with some ISK and fancy words? Pfff."

-"Industry is-"
-"I feel like I'm repeating myself."

-"Aaaargh."
-"Gyaaaaah."

Moral of the story: pick something you like, stick with it, ignore the h8ers #yolo #KKswag

[Gwen Ikiryo]

Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.

Well, no one. I was just being hyperbolic.

I just meant that they don't put military service on a pedestal too much more then usual, judging by the numbers.

[V. Gesakaarin]

Who exactly is saying, "Pick up a gun or you suck"? The only times I ever really had to say that IC was during the Heth days when it was more or less the Caldari party line implied by the CPD.

Well, no one. I was just being hyperbolic.

I just meant that they don't put military service on a pedestal too much more then usual, judging by the numbers.

I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.

I still have no idea what the hell people mean by Loyalist by the way: the only times I think it's proper to use is in situations such as a civil war to delineate specific political/personal loyalties in a conflict. I have clue what people mean by it in RP. Just sounds like trying to construct a stereotype and arbitrarily enforcing it upon people.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.

Uh... Pardon me?

[V. Gesakaarin]

I guess you can just assume self-made hyperbole and then post on backstage about it, or not really.

Uh... Pardon me?

You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?

[Gwen Ikiryo]

You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?

Oh. Well, yeah, but I was just being silly. I never meant it seriously.

Like, I was saying to Pieter that I felt there were a bunch of positions in a society that would bring equal partiotic-cred as serving in the military, and I took your response as saying that the Caldari might not think of things that way because their society is so based around martial endeavour. So I was being a bit over-the-top in my wording to try and illustrate how their society having that focus wouldn't really change the expectations of individuals all that much without sounding super pedantic.

I'm apologize if it came across a little awkwardly.

[V. Gesakaarin]

You made some exaggerations then said they were in fact just exaggerations?

Oh. Well, yeah, but I was just being silly. I never meant it seriously.

Like, I was saying to Pieter that I felt there were a bunch of positions in a society that would bring equal partiotic-cred as serving in the military, and I took your response as saying that the Caldari might not think of things that way because their society is so based around martial endeavour. So I was being a bit over-the-top in my wording to try and illustrate how their society having that focus wouldn't really change the expectations of individuals all that much without sounding super pedantic.

I'm apologize if it came across a little awkwardly.

Well I'd agree, what I was trying to point out was that the Caldari do seem to hold their military in esteem and are probably the least likely to criticize their armed forces. That said, it does at times feel to lend itself to some pretty over the top representations of soldiery by RP'ers -- how many ex-"special forces", and cardboard cutout Hollywood OOHRAH stereotype Marine archetypes do you see among Caldari characters? Don't know about you, I see a lot of them around. I think it's just about subtlety in the portrayal I guess and the fact that in reality, a capsuleer in Eve is presented as a freelancer, not an actual member of their members military and honestly anyone who seriously joins FW just so they can act out some kind of military fantasy and flash their militia ranks about gets nothing more than a ten-foot-pole and a, "lel" from me.

That I think has always been the problem with FW from an RP perspective. CCP portrays it as some kind of actual, real, hot war of national survival at times which doesn't actually mesh with what's happening. Some days I wish CCP would just bite the bullet and have all the factions forced by CONCORD to sign new peace accords with each other and return to the old Cold War dynamics of political tensions, where FW remains in place as the equivalent of a shadowy proxy war that is officially denied as happening. Fought by a rag-tag bunch of privateers, nationalists, military contractors and other ne'er-do-wells out of any combination of national pride, political loyalty, or just cold, hard, ISK.

You could even break it down as the "War" only being supported by certain internal factions interested or having a stake in it:

Caldari: KK, Lai Dai, Wiyrkomi
Gallente: Roden, Blaque, SDII, Sociocrats
Amarr: Sarum Family
Minmatar: Brutor Tribe, Shakor, Freedom Fighters

Which might add some interesting shenanigans contextualized as a proper capsuleer proxy war fought during a time of official peace.

[Leon026]

Ever since FW came out, it always felt as more of a raah-raah proxy war over some lawless region using capsuleers to do the dirty work rather than actual fighting. If it *was* indeed a real war, the last thing I would do is have freelance, uncontrollable demi-god capsuleers fight an actual war for me. Too unpredictable, no loyalty, and no collar to keep them in line. Its just not logical.

[Iwan Terpalen]

On the other hand, they'll gladly slaughter the opposing side's fickle demi-gods in exchange for mere peanuts and funny-money. (LP, ISK, and a handful of proprietary modules and blueprint copies.)

[V. Gesakaarin]

Well it doesn't change the divergence in presentation between CCP's, "This is a super serious war with serious consequences and oh, someone think of the children, it's horrible and terrible and everyone will die!" with what's actually happening in that everything's pretty much the same and life goes on with zero impact on the Homefront of any real consequence.

If that's the case, then might as well just make it the Eve equivalent of a RL Cold War proxy war in Africa, Latin America or SE Asia honestly where the RP isn't about wearing a uniform and playing soldier but having complicated and shadowy politics, hidden agendas, and denying you're even fighting a war.

[Gwen Ikiryo]

While I agree, "Epic war to decide the fate of the cluster" sells better, and that's probably all that matters much in CCPs eyes, even if it's functionally a load of rubbish.

It's kinda the same weird reality/concept mismatch and on-again off-again flirtation with out and out warfare that's been going on in WoW between the two factions pretty much since it was released. Total war is great marketing material, but carries gameplay implications that would alienate a lot of normal players.

Thus, the metafiction gets streched awkwardly so the creators can have their cake and eat it as well.

[Katrina Oniseki]

I guess the real discussion here is then, "How can I be an industrialist/non-pvp'er and be recognized as a factional loyalist."

Essentially yes. While in my case I do PvP, I'm unable to with my current internet. 

Ok, so I am going to do the dangerous thing and ask a question I may not like the answer to - is Dex Nederland not considered a State loyalist (Lai Dai) because he (and his corp) is primarily industrialist?

Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.

But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me.

[orange]

Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.

But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me.

Both, was in FW for about 6 months at the beginning and shifted to Black Rise development and not being in FW.

But I highly doubt our minor presence in FW is what causes people to think of Dex as a Caldari loyalist.  What did I do that sets Dex up as a paragon to you?

[Katrina Oniseki]

Judging by the responses in this thread, I would say that he is indeed considered a loyalist. But perhaps in the same venue as I-RED, for better or worse, being out in nullsec. I'll point out that LDIS did do service in FW, right? I mean you sold to FW markets.

But maybe this is about 'the grass is greener' for me, because you always seemed like one of 'the paragons' to me.

Both, was in FW for about 6 months at the beginning and shifted to Black Rise development and not being in FW.

But I highly doubt our minor presence in FW is what causes people to think of Dex as a Caldari loyalist.  What did I do that sets Dex up as a paragon to you?

John respects you as one. That pretty much ends the debate for me!

Odd that I don't listen to his opinion when he says I'm doing a good job too though. xD