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[Odelya]

Hey,

at the moment I am writing a little manual which deals with religious questions. Since Odelya is a holder in the Kingdom she has the authority and the duty to guide her subjects; I would like to use this way to build a more systematic and comprehensive outlook on Amarrian religion—albeit with a limited scope, since Odelya’s authority is conferred to her holdings and her views are rather unorthodox.

The backstory of Odelya roughly goes this way: Born into a wealthy family of holders, who occupied various positions in the Kingdom and traces back its roots to the ancient warriors on Athra, she had a carefree childhood. (She never put on her stockings alone.) She is extremely self-loving, selfish, spoiled, and always ready for another extravaganza. Having spent most of her holidays in entertainment facilities, she is torn between a liberal outlook and the Khanid way of life. (This liberal outlook only counts for herself though, anything but the Khanid/Amarrian theory and practice of state and power is completely foreign to her and she has not even a basic understanding of how other political systems and societies work. Basically, she is like a rich Saudi hypocrite, drinking alcohol and having orgies the one day, and attending an ultra-conservative gathering the other day condemning people who deviate from the narrow path which is acceptable.)

At the same time—and especially after the death of her father—she has feelings of guilt. She is not really sure if she believes in anything but herself, but she feels compelled to believe to believe. As a consequence she becomes extremely zealous sometimes until she reaches a point where her doubts win over again and the debauchery starts—only to become more extreme the next time. Most of the time she is just pretending to be religious and sees this as a way to win over the hearts and minds of other people—which doesn’t really work, as could be observed.

Now to the manual: It will be something of a mix between a Shiite توضيح المسائل and a Catholic catechism, dealing with questions in a simple Q&A form:

[Spoiler]Q. Is Jamyl Sarum (“Jamyl I”) the empress or not?
A. She is not the empress.[/Spoiler]

If you have any question that you would like Odelya to answer I would be more than happy to include them! :-) The questions should be short and to the point. Like: "What is the nature of God" or "Is it advisable to..." etc.

Now to my original question: I want to make Odelya the "Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur". Would you deem this appropriate? Palas is the only system in the Khanid Kingdom, so the only place where she helds some real jurisdiction, while Lustrevik, Isendeldik and Eystur are—of course—Minmatar territories. Yet I read something in the EVE wiki which truly amazed me:

In modern times, destitute Holders are rare. They were more common in the past, particularly following the Minmatar Rebellion, when the Holders of various Minmatar planets were expelled from their holdings. The majority were left penniless and either absorbed into other holder families or simply died out. A few still remain; most notably the so-called Duke of Pator, who rents a small office in a station in Pator and regularly sends out pronouncements to his “people.” Though the Duke is descended from a former Pator-based Holder, he is viewed as a harmless eccentric by the locals and largely ignored.

And I am lookin forward to the mockery this will provoke from the Minmatar side. Bloody heathens… ;-)

Feedback and ideas are welcome!

Odelya

P.S.: If someone thinks Odelya is completely annoying: Please let me know this too! ;-)

[Katrina Oniseki]

I always loved Odelya as a character. I don't have any suggestions on where to go with her, but I always wholly enjoyed her portrayal and the various storylines you've taken her through.

[Esna Pitoojee]

Some thoughts:

- If I am understanding correctly, you are considering making Odelya Duchess of the Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur systems in their entirety. Given that the latter three systems are basically (IC) pointless claims, how do your intend to use the 4th? Would Odelya even have any part in that claim now that her family has disowned her?

- In general, unless you are ready and accepting for Odelya to become something of a pariah, be careful of being dramatically outspoken. As is, she has already basically cast herself as an enemy in most Amarr/Khanid areas with her recent statements. If you are intending for her to go this route, understand its not a choice easily turned around.

Just my initial two cents.

[Odelya]

Katrina, thank you, happy to hear this

Thank you for your input, Esna!

1| Odelya and Morijah have been reconciled. The shame remains, the legal consequences are gone (Maybe this should be mentioned somewhere in public?)

Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur will be my personal favourite titles, since I always loved people laying claim on Jerusalem six-hundred years after the crusades and so on… And I want Odelya to be friends with the Duke of Pator! The 4th will provide the background for IC developments, tax income, etc. I don’t have any specific plan and think Odelya is very likely not to care much: She is busy fighting the TLF and when not she is sitting in her fancy garden on Khanid Prime trying new outfits or pretending to be observing private rituals.

2| Odelya already is some kind of pariah and never had a place within the loyalist bloc. And if I am mistaken, the holo reel affair cemented this for good and what is done is done. Odelya’s traits as impulsive and self-aggrandising (while being pretty insecure at the same time) don’t fit into the traditional Amarrian rp setting.

(I just remembered that she is also 1st Baroness of Artusci and Chitarus, which are moons in Parses and Chamemi! More titles! )

[Nicoletta Mithra]

I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.

I'd also be careful with that catechism. Most Amarr Players don't look kindly on making the Amarr/Khanid look like space Catholics/Protestants or Muslims, for good reasons.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!

[Odelya]

I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.

Vaari crossed my mind when I was sketching this out—but does Odelya has too many titles? She is the “Exalted Cherry Blossom”—which obviously wasn’t meant to be impressive (OOC), but of course Odelya thinks she is the one (IC). But maybe: “Her Grace Odelya of House d’Hanguest, Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur, Holder of Various Moons in Parses and Chamemi” is indeed a bit too long to be taken seriously. I’ll think about it—maybe it is worth taking the risk. What would be the border between being realistic and bombastic? After all it is a tool that I am after to provide Odelya with a better framework to play out her torn, self-loving, fragile personality while providing a realistic (Khanid + destitute) holder background.

I'd also be careful with that catechism. Most Amarr Players don't look kindly on making the Amarr/Khanid look like space Catholics/Protestants or Muslims, for good reasons.

Could you elaborate this point? I am not entirely certain if I know what you mean.

Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!

Kat and Odi should be the very bestest!

[kalaratiri]

When I finally resub, I think Kala is going to really hate Odelya 



[spoiler]Also this:

Odelya d'Hanguest blushes > This is indeed outrageous!
Odelya d'Hanguest > Not even the Udorians in my father's kitchen talked like this!
Kalaratiri makes an exaggerated bow > Welcome to the Summit, Duchess!
Odelya d'Hanguest disconnects
[/spoiler]

[Katrina Oniseki]

I'd be careful with all these titles. Odelya is already not too far off of Vaari's number of titles and usually, the more titles you have, the more it sounds comical rather than impressive.

Vaari crossed my mind when I was sketching this out—but does Odelya has too many titles? She is the “Exalted Cherry Blossom”—which obviously wasn’t meant to be impressive (OOC), but of course Odelya thinks she is the one (IC). But maybe: “Her Grace Odelya of House d’Hanguest, Duchess of Palas, Lustrevik, Isendeldik, and Eystur, Holder of Various Moons in Parses and Chamemi” is indeed a bit too long to be taken seriously. I’ll think about it—maybe it is worth taking the risk. What would be the border between being realistic and bombastic? After all it is a tool that I am after to provide Odelya with a better framework to play out her torn, self-loving, fragile personality while providing a realistic (Khanid + destitute) holder background.

Kat and Odi can be such bestest friends!

Kat and Odi should be the very bestest!

[spoiler=American Attempting to Talk About Britain]On the titles, it should be noted that many lesser titled British have very excessive and long formal titles, but they are often shortened significantly for common or public use. The full title is usually used only for documentation or extreme formalities.[/spoiler]

I think it's entirely possible for you to have a long title realistically, as lordship titles tend to be. What makes Vaari comical isn't his long titles, but that he insists on using the entire thing every single chance he gets, even where a simple personal pronoun would do.

Also, yaaay! Best friends. \o/

Kat has lots of things to sell, luxurious delights to share, and stuff to talk about. D:

[Odelya]

Thank you very much, Nicoletta and Katrina—you have convinced me. It is Palas and Lustrevik then, the rest (the moons!) is somewhere hidden in the Book of Records.

When I finally resub, I think Kala is going to really hate Odelya 

[spoiler]Also this:

Odelya d'Hanguest blushes > This is indeed outrageous!
Odelya d'Hanguest > Not even the Udorians in my father's kitchen talked like this!
Kalaratiri makes an exaggerated bow > Welcome to the Summit, Duchess!
Odelya d'Hanguest disconnects
[/spoiler]

Kalaratiri, I had to laugh hard

[Rin Kaelestria]

To add on a bit what Nico already said, most Amarr players don't go as far as to say the Amarr faith is space Catholocism/Islam. While in old PF (might still be in PF) it boldly stated the roots of the Amarr religion stemmed from a branch of the Catholic church, that's not what it is anymore. Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore. I think that's what a lot of us Amarr/Khanid RPers see, and thus hesitant to call it space Catholocism/Islam.

However, using bits and pieces of RL religion/cultures as references to paint a better picture of the Amarr religion, that a lot of us do. I know a few of us say Persian/Arabic cultures, and I myself see things like some Egyptian, Roman, Hebrew and European Renaissance references in it. 

One more thing, do be careful on what your character claims to be a holder of. I'm not saying this in reference to the Matari planets she claims to be a dutchess of at all. More in reference to any of the Khanid territory. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who claims to own the Palas system, so that should be okay. But I say this more so, just in case, be wary that changing what you say your character owns could potentially step on another player's RP, if said player already made a claim to such territory.

[Arista Shahni]

As there is no official Character written and compiled book of record that I am aware of that gets dragged out, I'd be amused to watch a character holder *****-fight.

Is there one?

And if not, should we not make one for lols?

[Nicoletta Mithra]

To add on a bit what Nico already said, most Amarr players don't go as far as to say the Amarr faith is space Catholocism/Islam. While in old PF (might still be in PF) it boldly stated the roots of the Amarr religion stemmed from a branch of the Catholic church, that's not what it is anymore. Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore. I think that's what a lot of us Amarr/Khanid RPers see, and thus hesitant to call it space Catholocism/Islam.

However, using bits and pieces of RL religion/cultures as references to paint a better picture of the Amarr religion, that a lot of us do. I know a few of us say Persian/Arabic cultures, and I myself see things like some Egyptian, Roman, Hebrew and European Renaissance references in it. 

One more thing, do be careful on what your character claims to be a holder of. I'm not saying this in reference to the Matari planets she claims to be a dutchess of at all. More in reference to any of the Khanid territory. As far as I know, I don't know anyone who claims to own the Palas system, so that should be okay. But I say this more so, just in case, be wary that changing what you say your character owns could potentially step on another player's RP, if said player already made a claim to such territory.

The Amarr religion stems per PF from the Unified Catholic Church of Mankind. There has been much debate about what this church exactly is, but we can be quite sure that it's not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church we know now.

Most Amarr/Khanid RPer's draw on existing religions, and that is okay, but it's another thing to portray them as 'Space Catholics' or 'Space Muslims'. There are a couple of problems with this approach:

1) Where ever the Amarr religion has it's roots in the religious landscape as we know it, as Rin said: "Obviously over the many a years since the collapse of the Eve Gate, it evolved into something completely different, and you can't say it's anything mostly resembling to a specific RL religion anymore." The Amarrian religion should be recognised as her very own beast and should be acknowledged and portrayed as such. There is no reason given by PF to assume that the Amarr are 'Space Catholics' or 'Space Muslims' - quite to the contrary. Thus, portraying them as such is going against the PF.

2) Portraying the Amarr as 'Space Catholtics/Muslims' can easily hurt feelings of RL practitioners of those religions. It muddies the waters between fiction and reality and is quite easily leading to debates that cross this border - and that's something that already happens easily enough without portraying the Amarr religion in such a way.

3) It quite easily gets you into conflict with the EVE TOS. As stylizing the Amarr as 'Space Catholics/Muslims' can easily hurt religious feelings - and quite reasonably so, I might add - this can get you quickly into conflict with points 2, 3, and 7 of it. That you are roleplaying is no excuse as is stated in point 4 of the TOS.

So, while it's okay to take RL religions as an inspiration, I'd be careful not to slide into the realm that is caricature or (bad) plagiarization of RL religion. It's not only showing a lack of creativity, it is also unneccesarily taking chances to hurt people.

Typical examples I have seen in my time in EVE of going the 'Amarr are space Catholics' route include, but are not limited to:

• Quoting Biblical Law as 'Scriptural Law'
• Using Christian prayers as Amarrian ones, by simply exchanging "Jesus Christ" with "Dano Gheinok".
• Employing the Psalms as typical Amarrian prayers

These are of course the most blatant things, but it's easy to take a couple of minor things that can easily add up. Of course, there are even weirder things going on, like claiming that Amarr are against science because they are religious.

In my experience most Amarr/Khanid players are thus not only hesitant to call Amarr religion space Catholocism/Islam, but they are quite averse to the idea. If for nothing else, then simply because they don't want to rehash the volatile exchange of opinions that happens IRL (mostly) between Christian Theists (mostly not Catholics, but mainly members of a variety of churches based in the US and in favour of Creationism) and equally evangelical Atheists.

[Ollie]

The Amarr religion stems per PF from the Unified Catholic Church of Mankind. There has been much debate about what this church exactly is, but we can be quite sure that it's not the Roman Catholic Church or any other church we know now.

I'm not debating that you know what you're talking about re: the Amarr Nic but where's the PF in the link you provided? As far as I can tell that Evelopedia page is player created and not really referenced to any actual PF (ie, chronicles, background, dev comments, etc).

[Lyn Farel]

The reference to the UCCM was in the old timeline.