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[Karmilla Strife]

I'm with Andreus on this one. It's been RP'd very well by several players and it's fun to watch, but my character is convinced they are just a particularly demented breed of body-modder. Any claims to be an AI/Drone/sleeper, can expect to receive the same treatment as claims to be a cat or rabbit.

[Ghost Hunter]

Perhaps rather sitting on the boat of, 'my character will consider yours crazy', it would be more constructive to offer ideas on how portrayal can be done effectively regardless.

[Karmilla Strife]

The OP asked how I feel about robots. Offering that opinion is about as constructive as I feel I can be on the subject. I personally don't think there is a basis for some of the AI character concepts. Perhaps I'm just being selective with which fictional elements I'm willing to accept. As a player, I think it's been portrayed very well by others though and I'm more than happy to step back and let them have fun playing as they wish.

I've noticed that the AI concepts that seem to be most acceptable to the general (ie: the summit) population are the ones that are consistent. If I had any advice to give Zark or others starting out it would be to remain consistent with your story and your character. There will still be characters like mine who think yours is crazy, but at least they'll be consistently crazy.

[Ciarente]

The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.

In my experience, the players whose characters are AIs work hardest to negotiate the complexities of unreliable and conflicting PF - no doubt because they sort of have to - which gives the rest of us the interesting angle of 'my character thinks yours is crazy ... except she isn't quite sure ... and maybe your character is totally telling the truth ... and maybe not ... "

And in such uncertainties and unreliable narrators, great RP can be born.

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.

In my experience, the players whose characters are AIs work hardest to negotiate the complexities of unreliable and conflicting PF - no doubt because they sort of have to - which gives the rest of us the interesting angle of 'my character thinks yours is crazy ... except she isn't quite sure ... and maybe your character is totally telling the truth ... and maybe not ... "

And in such uncertainties and unreliable narrators, great RP can be born.

An interesting point.  Certainly one I can get behind, from both sides of the equation - my little monsters do their best to hide from public view, or to obscure their true nature for the most part, so a culture of disbelief suits them just fine.  It's useful to have that kind of situation for anything that's lore-questionable.

[Arnulf Ogunkoya]

If someone is trying something odd, but that seems fitting with a science fiction setting, then I'm inclined not to make too much fuss unless it is really blatantly denying fundamental PF.

AI certainly exists in the setting, even in high sec. It is just very tightly regulated. That's the main problem with AI characters. Why hasn't CONCORD's tech police come a knocking?

But the same problem applies with self-avowed pirate loyalists as well. Why aren't they all outlaws as a result?

[Creep]

If someone is trying something odd, but that seems fitting with a science fiction setting, then I'm inclined not to make too much fuss unless it is really blatantly denying fundamental PF.

AI certainly exists in the setting, even in high sec. It is just very tightly regulated. That's the main problem with AI characters. Why hasn't CONCORD's tech police come a knocking?

CONCORD doesn't come knocking when my pirate docks up in Highsec and last I remember, he's -9, mostly from Podkilling. CONCORD seems to drop the ball a lot, ingame - from Collelie to Sansha incursions to flashy red capsuleers (who they have jurisdiction over, rather than empire forces) to illegal goods.

When someone says they are an alien, or a catperson, or a sentient pony, or a wizard, I find it hard to acknowledge them in character. But when, in a room built from rogue drone scrapmetal, amidst a crowd of Cyberknights and True Slaves, I encounter an illegal AI in a semi-organic shell which was constructed out in Syndicate, I am content to acknowledge them as legit.
I should note, however, that the key to AI players is: Less is More (both in terms of numbers — there shouldn't be very many of them — and in how they play it. Low key, vulnerable, and with a minimum of calling attention to any hyper-intelligence or special abilities granted to them by their computeriness).

[Corso.Verne]

So, at first I had planned on responding to this post with how I've received all your input and my plans to tweak my character in ways that might be more compromising with the more hard liners in this thread that claim my character is inherently an impossibility, but the more this goes on the more I realize I have successfully generated a discourse that is becoming less and less about me and more and more about the topic in general and a flux of opinion.

Since that is exactly what I was hoping would happen, I feel as if diverting the topic back to me would be counterproductive and self-centered, so I'm going to link to my character thread in this post once I've compiled my thoughts on that particular subject, for any curious.

As for the current discourse, here's what I have to say. First and foremost, I must beg your forgiveness for being somewhat ignorant of the parameters the Eve Online lore provides for those such as me who are always looking to push boundaries. I had not realized the concept of AI was as wishy-washy a proposition in New Eden as I have come to understand it to be. I hope that will help to shed some light on my initial surprise and, admittedly, slight indignation at the criticism levied against me.

In a universe with drones and Aura, with warp drives and Cyberknights, with pseudo and trans-humans, I forgot that New Eden is a fundamentally human place, and this defiance of common sci-fi fair is pretty core to its concept. So, mea culpa there. I didn't mean to step on any toes or behave in a manner that some might consider willfully ignorant or vain.

I do, however, think that my inexperience and naivete has accidentally touched on something it seems many of you find to be fascinating, or at the very least worthy of impassioned feelings on the subject. So I thought I'd pose the question, to each of you individually, as to your opinions on how close New Eden is technologically to AI, or if its there already, why is it not more prevalent?

My first problem with the subject was actually particularly relevant to my decision to reevaluate Z-ARK. And that is, a techno-cultural dependence upon cloning technology as a means to effective immortality. Obviously, AI likely don't have to worry about aging in the way that humans do (although rampancy can be a problem, perhaps?), but beyond the long-term ramifications of this tech for the human race, at present it is used much more practically to transform warfare from an emphasis on human resources to mechanical resources.

Basically, how would an AI simulate the capsuleer cloning process in a way that is at least analogous? This kind of stumped me, to be honest. One of the fundamental tenants of Z-ARK as a character is the lack of any biological components. And apart from the aforementioned problems with precedents or lack thereof in the lore, it presents the very real problem of how do I explain waking up in a station after being podded? The transfer of consciousness seems universal as a concept, but is the technology really there yet to recreate a fully mechanical entity at the rapid and precise speed organic capsuleers are accustomed to?

The other question I'd like to ask you guys is, not just in the Eve universe but in reality as well, do you believe artificial intelligence is possible? I guess you shouldn't really feel obliged to answer that if it makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, it is a personal question and not a character one, but I think it'd be fascinating to see the spread of people's opinions and how that matches up (or doesn't) to the opinions of their characters.

Personally, I don't believe that we will ever see a Turing-based AI. I just don't think its possible to program in semantics that way. I am, however, significantly more optimistic about the recent advances in neural networks, and believe that the unconventional means used to "program" such a device could very well lead to future breakthroughs and perhaps even a unique intelligence, although I have no conception of how long from now that could be.

What do you think?

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

I do, however, think that my inexperience and naivete has accidentally touched on something it seems many of you find to be fascinating, or at the very least worthy of impassioned feelings on the subject. So I thought I'd pose the question, to each of you individually, as to your opinions on how close New Eden is technologically to AI, or if its there already, why is it not more prevalent?

My first problem with the subject was actually particularly relevant to my decision to reevaluate Z-ARK. And that is, a techno-cultural dependence upon cloning technology as a means to effective immortality. Obviously, AI likely don't have to worry about aging in the way that humans do (although rampancy can be a problem, perhaps?), but beyond the long-term ramifications of this tech for the human race, at present it is used much more practically to transform warfare from an emphasis on human resources to mechanical resources.

Basically, how would an AI simulate the capsuleer cloning process in a way that is at least analogous? This kind of stumped me, to be honest. One of the fundamental tenants of Z-ARK as a character is the lack of any biological components. And apart from the aforementioned problems with precedents or lack thereof in the lore, it presents the very real problem of how do I explain waking up in a station after being podded? The transfer of consciousness seems universal as a concept, but is the technology really there yet to recreate a fully mechanical entity at the rapid and precise speed organic capsuleers are accustomed to?

The other question I'd like to ask you guys is, not just in the Eve universe but in reality as well, do you believe artificial intelligence is possible? I guess you shouldn't really feel obliged to answer that if it makes you uncomfortable for whatever reason, it is a personal question and not a character one, but I think it'd be fascinating to see the spread of people's opinions and how that matches up (or doesn't) to the opinions of their characters.

Personally, I don't believe that we will ever see a Turing-based AI. I just don't think its possible to program in semantics that way. I am, however, significantly more optimistic about the recent advances in neural networks, and believe that the unconventional means used to "program" such a device could very well lead to future breakthroughs and perhaps even a unique intelligence, although I have no conception of how long from now that could be.

What do you think?

Although it's a debateable question (both IC and OOC) whether Rogue Drones are actually sentient, considering they are an adaptive, evolving 'species' of cybernetic beings, I'd say that the technology does exist for AI already.  It's mentioned in the wiki that AI research is illegal because all serious attempts at creating a sentient, unbound cybernetic organism have resulted in it rebelling.

It's canonically established that Sleeper drones are AI as well.  It's also implied (through the 'Awakened Informorph' thing) that they are sufficiently sophisticated to have had dealings and negotiations with the RDs.  Now, Sleeper tech is quite a long way ahead of the rest of us, but there's also a lot of examples of it being reverse engineered and used (T3 and Dusters, for a start).

You can also make some interesting arguments based on Nation.  Although Nation is more akin to the Borg than the Geth in that it's a hive mind network of organics, linked by implants, rather than a true cybernetic entity, the Geth analogy is actually quite a fitting one.  After all, the Geth are not individuals, but a staggering number of programs which link together to form consensus and improve their processing power.  A hive-based AI using Sansha technology (in terms of information relay and the like, not the implants per se) could also be quite possible.

I'm a little puzzled at your quandary re: podding.  You're implying that the hardclone 'burn scan' retrieves some mystical and magical thing called 'consciousness', separate from science and utterly unfathomable, and wings it across the stars by unknown means.  Exaggerated, but that's the logical premise of your question.  Since Eve is a (relatively) hard science universe, though, this clearly isn't the case.  A brain scanner simply reduces the memories and mind of an individual into data that can be fed through the relays to the appropriate destination.  I'd honestly argue that an AI would find it easier to use a pod-style hardclone system, with some suitable adaptation to connect with the scanner - or even just use custom-built pod interfaces.  We've got instant communication across the known universe, and the ability to send an entire mind's worth of data (can't be small) instantly as well (how else could some poor schmuck who got old fashioned doomsdayed in his pod still be around?)

Real AI... until we actually understand what consciousness is and how it works, that's an awkward question.

Edit: just reread that and realised it sounded a little aggressive.  Not intended, I can just get intense when debating things that interest me, sorry

[Creep]

Repentence: While the brain scan delivers Information from a dying clone to a new clone, it does require...a Brain. If he's a computer inside a fleshy body(or a full robot), he's going to need to replace not just the organic shell(or robotic shell), but the computer as well. Though, to be fair, with Capsuleer level resources, having even the most sophisticated and/or illegal of computer parts replicated and replaced should not be a huge deal.

As for finding true AI possible: I believe that there are scientists working very hard right now to replicate the human brain in silicon. I defer to their expertise and say Yes, eventually.

[Corso.Verne]

I'm a little puzzled at your quandary re: podding.  You're implying that the hardclone 'burn scan' retrieves some mystical and magical thing called 'consciousness', separate from science and utterly unfathomable, and wings it across the stars by unknown means.  Exaggerated, but that's the logical premise of your question.  Since Eve is a (relatively) hard science universe, though, this clearly isn't the case.  A brain scanner simply reduces the memories and mind of an individual into data that can be fed through the relays to the appropriate destination.  I'd honestly argue that an AI would find it easier to use a pod-style hardclone system, with some suitable adaptation to connect with the scanner - or even just use custom-built pod interfaces.  We've got instant communication across the known universe, and the ability to send an entire mind's worth of data (can't be small) instantly as well (how else could some poor schmuck who got old fashioned doomsdayed in his pod still be around?)

Forgive the lack of clarity, see Creep's response for my intent. I totally agree that the inherent almost "data packet" nature of the transfer process would probably be easier to adapt to an AI than to a human brain, so the problem becomes reassembly. I merely used the term "consciousness" for expediency. Obviously, if AI is so strictly prohibited and regulated, rebuilding an entire neural network or equivalent robot brain thingy seems like it would require a lot of resources, which doesn't necessarily jive with the whole independent capsuleer life. So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?

This entire thread has made me want to read everything there possibly is to read on drones, both out of a desire to know all things ever and in the hopes that I might find some answers to my questions there. Does anyone know if there are any compendiums handy to make my quest a little easier?

[Repentence Tyrathlion]

So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?

While there are some debates as to the exchange rate between the ISK and the average baseliner moneyz, it's pretty much a given that capsuleers are seriously rich and have ludicrous amounts of resources compared to most people, so adjustment of the pod interface doesn't seem like a major challenge.  The robot chassis and brain, however... yeah, that's a different question.  Not one I've personally had to deal with.

[Synthia]

The thing I like most about Synthia (and the Things She Reads About) is that the player doesn't require others to get in the same boat in order to interact with her. If my character regards her as an odd and eccentric human, I can still RP with her - my RP isn't based on 'your character is wrong' and hers isn't based on 'you must totally agree with me'. Ghost hunter's characters are the same.

\o/

I should note, however, that the key to AI players is: Less is More (both in terms of numbers — there shouldn't be very many of them — and in how they play it. Low key, vulnerable, and with a minimum of calling attention to any hyper-intelligence or special abilities granted to them by their computeriness).

Synthia definitely isn't hyper-intelligent, sometimes barely understands what people are saying. I think her one special ability is to Misinterpret things that she encounters. Whether that is interpreting Adult Holo-Reels as Instructional Films, or just taking everything she reads at face value.
Example:
Person in the summit > /emote lights a cigar and frowns
Synthia > The Surgeon General of the Gallente Federation has Advised that Smoking is Hazardous to your Health.

So how do you recreate a highly sophisticated, prototype, allegedly one-of-a-kind robotic exoskeleton and a brain which would probably be a miracle of the universe, on a moment's notice?

This problem, is one of the reasons why Synthia is constructed the way she is. Each Synthia robot, that is remote-controlled, can be constructed using fairly normal cybernetic-surgery and cloning processes. Simply install the custom cybernetic devices into the freshly made cloned body. Not overly different to Khanid Cyberknights and all their custom implants too. Or so I am led to believe.
Synthia's brain, where the high-tech, unique hardware would be, is in a remote location, and not exposed to danger in the capsule, unlike the individual robots.
That was my solution, though I am sure there are other ways to achieve a similar result.

This entire thread has made me want to read everything there possibly is to read on drones, both out of a desire to know all things ever and in the hopes that I might find some answers to my questions there. Does anyone know if there are any compendiums handy to make my quest a little easier?

I'm not sure, a lot of things seem rather fragmented. There are bits about rogue drones in exploration sites, missions, asteroid npcs, and in background stories. Not all of this is linked together, and much is contradictory at times.

[Gottii]

What do you think?

From EVE Wiki:

"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."

You can still play an AI character if you want, but just be aware your character will be against current PF as it stands now, and a lot of characters (and players) will disregard you as a crack pot or insane.

[Creep]

What do you think?

From EVE Wiki:

"Proper artificial intelligence, or AI, doesn't yet exist in EVE as such - at least not in sane and nonmurderous form - though many simulations come close."

You can still play an AI character if you want, but just be aware your character will be against current PF as it stands now, and a lot of characters (and players) will disregard you as a crack pot or insane.

...Or he could be insane and murderous and be entirely within PF.

And keep in mind that "insane" for a robot means something wildly different than it does for a human. Humans have a slew of disorders and emotional issues that come to bear when they cease responding to the rational world. AI might very well behave in an entirely different manner. The Rogue Drones, for example, are not gibbering murderbeasts for the most part. For most of their existences, they are content to labor together, rather than shredding every bit of metal they see, including each other.