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Author Topic: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)  (Read 6376 times)

Corso.Verne

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EDIT: Although the following post is super situational and relevant to me and my character specifically, feel free to use this thread to discuss the topic in general. Lavish Unit or Scher with praises, discuss whether or not you think its a good idea, whether its overdone, how you feel about robots, how you lust for robots, whatever.



This is a thread that I've actually wanted to start for a while, just because conceptually I think it would be really fascinating to get a discussion going on the topic, but haven't really felt comfortable broaching what with being something of a new kid on the block. After some lively RP and post-coital OOC discussion, however, I've realized that the very existence of my character concept may depend upon it.

I suppose my main problem can be sufficiently summed up as a question that needs to be asked of anyone who intends on pursuing a character model in any way similar to mine, which is:

I want to RP a robot but I am not a robot so how do I fake it?

I know we have some rather prominent AI-enthusiasts within the community, however I might be the only one playing (or attempting to play) a purely artificial entity? I don't know if that's the case or not, someone correct me if I'm wrong. So I guess maybe in certain ways my problems might be more prominent and in some ways less (I don't have to deal with pesky biological integration, for example).

The specific problem I dealt with today was: how do I RP a character that possesses enhanced mathematic/logic-based reasoning without actually being capable of processing gigabytes of information in a short period of time or just being super smart? Obviously I can't say "oh, my mistake" or "I was wrong" or whatever because a robot knows what they say to be true, they're objective creatures (albeit hypothetical).

The truth is, I'm probably not the most intelligent person in the channel. As much as that is personally devastating for me to admit, its (probably) the truth. I'm also probably not the best at using logic. So what happens when someone who is either better at logic than you or thinks they are better at logic than you (for the amateur observer, the two are kind of hard to tell apart), ends up putting you in a position in which you are required to either a) look like an idiot or b) refute a core part of your character's backstory/beliefs/ideas?

The other thing I've struggled with is how familiar and how unfamiliar should a robot or cyborg's character behave? When I first created Z-ARK, I tried to write him as mechanically as I possibly could. The feedback I got was: he's just generally annoying or boring or not fun to RP with. When I tried to adapt him to seem more "human" in nature so I could actually actively participate in more conversations, people seemed to immediately disbelieve his story or try to pick him apart to an extent that I didn't feel comfortable maintaining a conversational volley (except for Stitcher, Stitcher always thought he was a fraud).

Now, make no mistake. I'm not trying to whine. I'm not trying to say "These guys are being mean and won't let me be a special snowflake!" and I'm not trying to say "I don't feel like I need to back up or justify my character backstory, you should just accept him at face value!" That is dumb and wrong. I don't mind being a constant curiosity and source of skepticism. I don't mind getting into arguments with those skeptic characters or nosy people who's job it is to challenge people verbally day after day. I have a lot of fun RPing in those situations.

My fear, however, is that eventually I'm going to back myself into a corner enough times or slip up in some way that, even if the character concept is not "this is totally just a guy pretending to be a robot", everyone will think that's what he is, and that's not what I want to happen. I didn't set out to RP a village idiot. I wanted to provide some situational humor, of course, play the straight main and everyone laugh at my malfunctioning, etc. etc. But I didn't want that humor to come at the expense of the character on a core level. I don't want people to feel sorry for Z-ARK, or make fun of him for being "crazy", or whatever, unless those reactions are a product of in character subjective reactions to my intended character concept.

So I guess what I'm asking for is, do you guys have any advice for cutting corners on all the minutia while still backing up the original concept? Ways of speaking or things to avoid, etc. etc. I want a logical person who has an open mind to be at least willing to believe the possibility that my character is telling the truth. I don't mind people thinking he's a fake and I don't even mind a certain level of ambiguity as to whether or not that is actually the case. I just want to be able to write him well enough that people both a) don't automatically assume he is lying unless that's the type of thing they would normally do and b) genuinely want to interact with him.

GIVE ME UR INSITES


Also do you think Z-ARK is dumb?

Y/N
« Last Edit: 13 Jun 2013, 16:47 by Z-ARK »
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Utsukushi Shi

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This is kind of the story of RP in a nutshell man. In the end most of us are pretending a variety of things that we really have no experience in. The only advice I can really give is to try not to overextend yourself and end up in some conversation where you have no clue about what your discussing. You can also always just cop out on a convo that is just to heavy. Say you got podded or whatever and exit stage right.
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Steffanie Saissore

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I played an AI in an android body in a friend's tabletop game some years ago and had a blast playing her.  Essentially, she did not understand morality or humans getting caught up in what she considered to be inefficient social behavior.  One encounter, a bouncer to a club that we needed to get into made it known that for a 'favor' he would let us in.  While the rest of the group tried to reason an alternative way through the situation, the AI simply shrugged, took the bouncer into the side alley and provided him with said favor.  The rest of the group just sat their slack jawed when she came back.  Her response, "What?  We need in, he made the price of entry known.  We're wasting valuable time."

The hard part for me was divorcing emotion from reaction and action as well as trying to play not being able to comprehend human emotion while at the same time attempting to mimic and 'fake' those same emotions.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's what I'm remembering right now and in some ways I would love to bring a version of that character into EVE.
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Makkal

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Just do it and don't be derp about it.

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Ghost Hunter

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I apologize for the quote sectioning, I'm not particularly fond of it, but necessary here ...

Quote
The specific problem I dealt with today was: how do I RP a character that possesses enhanced mathematic/logic-based reasoning without actually being capable of processing gigabytes of information in a short period of time or just being super smart? Obviously I can't say "oh, my mistake" or "I was wrong" or whatever because a robot knows what they say to be true, they're objective creatures (albeit hypothetical).

The big thing is, don't engage in situations you know you cannot write enough to be convincing. If you must, master an ambiguous form to disconnect yourself until it passes. Recognizing conceptual traps or unfavorable positions is important, but so is being able to twist them to your advantage.

Running with that, have a reliable 'out' that fits in with your character. Ghost Hunter is an extreme cybernetic organism, but because he is mind-linked to the entirety of the Foundations, his cover up comes from that. He is mentally occupied to an unimaginable scale, so an error on his part can be attributed to 'preoccupation'. Similarly, if he doesn't perform to spec, once again he hasn't devoted his entire mental facilities to the situation at hand. If people press him to do so, that can be brushed off because, 'the Foundations needs his abilities more'. etc.

You can easily export that to your AI character, depending on their setup. If an error appears and others point it out, attribute it to a reasonable preoccupation that explains why the error could happen.

Quote
The truth is, I'm probably not the most intelligent person in the channel. As much as that is personally devastating for me to admit, its (probably) the truth. I'm also probably not the best at using logic. So what happens when someone who is either better at logic than you or thinks they are better at logic than you (for the amateur observer, the two are kind of hard to tell apart), ends up putting you in a position in which you are required to either a) look like an idiot or b) refute a core part of your character's backstory/beliefs/ideas?

The diplomatic word game is a crafty one to learn if that is what you want to do. My biggest recommendation for starting out is : engage on your home territory, and try to keep the subjects there. Speaking from an area you know about very well helps you grasp better ways of dealing with someone who is engaging you. A single point in their whole argument can unravel them if you can spot it because of your experience. Similarly, engaging someone on their homefront without being well versed in it will expose you to that very same tactic.

Arguing and debating with yourself is an effective way to plan for these encounters. I debate my character's ideology and positions all the time with myself to find where I am weak at. I've found holes others have rarely come close to approaching when they've engaged him in verbal debate. When he gets put into those corners where his position has turned against him, I have an out ready that stalls them 'winning' the debate. They think they win, of course, but the spectators have doubt in their minds still.

Thus, in this capacity, you must work with yourself to always have an option available even at your worst.


Quote
The other thing I've struggled with is how familiar and how unfamiliar should a robot or cyborg's character behave? When I first created Z-ARK, I tried to write him as mechanically as I possibly could. The feedback I got was: he's just generally annoying or boring or not fun to RP with. When I tried to adapt him to seem more "human" in nature so I could actually actively participate in more conversations, people seemed to immediately disbelieve his story or try to pick him apart to an extent that I didn't feel comfortable maintaining a conversational volley (except for Stitcher, Stitcher always thought he was a fraud).

This is a conceptual issue more than anything else, keep in mind.

A purely machine based character can be interesting to engage if there are hooks for others to latch onto. There needs to be something from the robot character that normal ones can find desirable to interact with. Perhaps its learning 'normal civilization' culture, or social interactions? So on, so forth. Any character without a hook for interaction is boring, first and foremost.

I have one character who speaks in a very mechanical way that is even difficult for me to conceptualize. Yet she is very popular internally, because she has hooks for interaction and thus is interesting. Public spheres have long rejected her because she has no external hooks for them, but that is by design - to the places like the Summit, she is boring/irritating. Find a way to make hooks that fit your character and fit how you want them to go. The people who want to tap in will come, eventually.


Quote
So I guess what I'm asking for is, do you guys have any advice for cutting corners on all the minutia while still backing up the original concept? Ways of speaking or things to avoid, etc. etc. I want a logical person who has an open mind to be at least willing to believe the possibility that my character is telling the truth. I don't mind people thinking he's a fake and I don't even mind a certain level of ambiguity as to whether or not that is actually the case. I just want to be able to write him well enough that people both a) don't automatically assume he is lying unless that's the type of thing they would normally do and b) genuinely want to interact with him.

There is no cutting corners on a core character concept. If you have to cut corners, your core concept has changed from its original incarnation.

Tactfully engaging conversation, picking your fights, having reliable mannerism and behavior - all these contribute to a consistently strong character image.  If your character demonstrates they are consistent, people who are intrigued can examine them further to judge their worth to them. In seeing your character's mannerisms unfold, they can see how the character pieces together and operates in real time. Characters change, of course, but having visible reasoning and logic why they change is important. Being inconsistent in this area demonstrates an unreliable character, and people will avoid interaction to avoid the headache of guesswork.




There are other points I think I am missing, but this should cover the meat of it.

tl;dr have a strong idea of what you want to do, build it up and be consistent with the execution of that idea. You will attract people who like your idea eventually, and discover those who will not interact with you at the same time.
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hellgremlin

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If memory serves me correctly, we've had quite a few robots in Eve now. That is to say, players playing characters that are either AI, drone infested, androids/actual robots, or concepts even more esoteric. I've been one of these myself, come to admit.

Playing a robot is kinda fun. You might, for example, issue a message to IGS, except not in english, but encrypted in a basic programming/encrypt language like hex or binary - something that someone familiar with those languages will immediately recognize, and have fun decrypting.

Once people catch on to the basic encrypt language you're using, you could throw a wrench in their gears - i.e. re-encrypt the original basic message string from the previous message, in yet another relatively easy-to-decrypt encryption method, i.e. take an english message, encrypt it in hex, then throw the hex code into a vigenere cipher, then leave the cipher key somewhere obvious. That way, the guys with crypto training could act all fancy and heroic in decrypting your insidious robotic code before anyone else could, while everyone else looks accurately lost at the gibberish you're posting.

There are a ton of various crypto tools available via simple googling. Just google "translate english to hex" or "translate hex to octal" if you want to fuck around with the various languages out there.
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Reyd Karris

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It helps to be able to fake it. ;)

Seriously though, having characters with "knowledge beyond the player" isn't too difficult to deal with. If things get too heated in a chat, send an OOC message to the other player involved. This works in a LOT of situations in regards to RP. Never forget that there are other players on the other side of the chat, and if you feel like something's going overboard, remind the other players. ;)

Having the knowledge and/or ability be situation-dependent also helps. For instance, "I'm an astrophysicist... a theoretical astrophysicist... specializing in minute spatial distortions caused by micro singularities and Planck-scale dynamics."

As for rogue drones/robots/AI in general:

I've been down that road more than once.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1182994
http://eve-search.com/thread/1321894-0/page/1#1
http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-image-deceivers-voice.html

I annoyed a great many people.  :oops: I didn't really care.  :bash: I love everyone just the same!  :cube:
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Saede Riordan

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It helps to be able to fake it. ;)

Seriously though, having characters with "knowledge beyond the player" isn't too difficult to deal with. If things get too heated in a chat, send an OOC message to the other player involved. This works in a LOT of situations in regards to RP. Never forget that there are other players on the other side of the chat, and if you feel like something's going overboard, remind the other players. ;)

Having the knowledge and/or ability be situation-dependent also helps. For instance, "I'm an astrophysicist... a theoretical astrophysicist... specializing in minute spatial distortions caused by micro singularities and Planck-scale dynamics."

As for rogue drones/robots/AI in general:

I've been down that road more than once.

http://oldforums.eveonline.com/?a=topic&threadID=1182994
http://eve-search.com/thread/1321894-0/page/1#1
http://nikiruu.blogspot.com/2011/01/new-image-deceivers-voice.html

I annoyed a great many people.  :oops: I didn't really care.  :bash: I love everyone just the same!  :cube:

 :cube:

I loved your crazy antics.
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Lithium Flower

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From my point of view, AI and robots should act more human, than human themselves.

This means, no protocols, no references about their AI-ness, but rather do some logical (apply straight logic solutions where they are not applicable) or 'human experience' errors. Have troubles with emotions, and stuff like this.

Look at replicants from 'Blade Runner' as example. And I like how Synthia plays it.

About speaking in 'hex' or binary, or whatever. No, please no. Well, I know, that some drones in mission speak to you in binary (i think it was a phrase like "die,noob"), but according to another mission, they are just mocking humans this way (drone infested said something like "you, humans, are no fun"). Having access to translators and ability to talk in program languages, robot should be able to talk practically any language and don't need to say encrypted stuff or so.

When encrypted/hex messages are useful, I think, is for communications between some sort of 'special services'.
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Repentence Tyrathlion

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Interesting question.  I've had one particular AI for a while, and I'm about to have a second.  Of course, things are complicated for me in that both have literally gobbled up human brainscans and integrated them... and their creator doesn't actually understand half of their components.

Then again, the Masque is not even slightly chatty.  She used to be a little more prominent when I was still in Naraka, but still, my experience of her actually interacting with others is limited.  For what it's worth, though, here's my take on things.

First, what's your purpose?  A human has no innate purpose, unless you count the genetic imperative to breed.  We have to make ours.  An AI has no such requirement unless it was created 'just because' - and even then, that's a purpose of sorts.  That will have a direct effect on personality and your approach to things.  Masque was a spymaster's assistant; she's cold, secretive and utterly ruthless when necessary, but prefers to avoid direct confrontation in any fashion.  Conversely, the new AI, Nakija, is designed for combat; she's violent and impulsive (by computer standards), and has no particular qualms about collateral damage or taking out her targets cleanly, so long as they go down.

When dealing with a social situation or problem, ignore ethics, practicality etc. and work out what, logically, is the swiftest and most efficient solution.  You may have some kind of inhibition for whatever reason on taking that solution, but it's the first that will come to mind for your character, and will have a bearing on how they react.

Don't be afraid of being incomprehensible (again, this will vary depending on design).  Masque regularly does things that even I have trouble working out, but that's fine - and in a way is a good way of faking superior intellect.  'Why did you do that?'  'You wouldn't understand.' kind of thing.  Just be careful about overusing that particular line unless you're prepared to be annoying (which is also a valid choice, most people find Masque annoying :P)

Last but not least: cheat.  Ghost's thing about being largely occupied limiting his processing power is a good one; in my case, the AIs are at least partly human and made out of a lot of salvaged components, which accounts for some fallibility.  For the rest, they just don't say much.  Find some reason (or develop one, which could be an interesting arc) for your AI to be limited in some fashion.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)
« Reply #10 on: 14 Jun 2013, 03:48 »

Remember that after a few posts full in binary on the IGS, the ISD started to wave the mod hammer at every post approaching that pattern, since we are supposed to only speak in English even in there.
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Anslol

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Re: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)
« Reply #11 on: 14 Jun 2013, 06:59 »

Everything Ghost said is something you should take to heart. Never push beyond your means and abilities lest you do a derp like divide by zero or something. As for AI, at least in terms of PF, I think AI research is illegal, so you gotta go about it carefully. There's ways around it and a lot of people have done it rather successfully.

I'd talk to Synthetic Cultist and Unit XS...number string here (ask around for the numbers). They can help more.
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Andreus Ixiris

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Re: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)
« Reply #12 on: 14 Jun 2013, 07:45 »

Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
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Anslol

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Re: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)
« Reply #13 on: 14 Jun 2013, 08:49 »

I dunno man. Synthia and Yuni do it pretty well. Even Vlad...to an extent. I don't think it's beyond the bounds to be able to transfer into a robo-shell. I mean shit we transfer into clones light years away. Also, I THINK Zainou's CEO was the first to put his brain into a body....he's a bit eccentric though.

Just don't pull an invincible terminator sort of deal...that's just >_>..
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Creep

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Re: You damn, dirty robots! (A Discussion About AI in Summit)
« Reply #14 on: 14 Jun 2013, 08:56 »

Until CCP states unequivocally that there is such a thing as an AI-controlled biologically-human shell, I'm going to make the blanket assumption that anyone claiming to be such a thing has what I would diplomatically describe as "a colourful imagination."
Wasn't there some PF about Cybernetics, and how the more you mod someone, the less efficient — and the less Human — they become?

I'd say any AI in a human body ought to be played with a great deal of awareness of just how fragile and resource-consuming such a build would be. Avoid physical combat unless fully armored, be slower moving than most Sci-Fi cyborg/androids are, and be very suspicious of any direct-contact info-transfers which might introduce corrupt code, virus', trojans, worms, or other attacks. In short, given the anti-AI atmosphere in New Eden, any actual AI's are ultra-vulnerable because humanity has not put that much energy into upgrading them.
This could lead to an awesome characterization of a hyper-intelligent being which is utterly crippled by fear of its own fragility.
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