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[Morwen Lagann]

Creep, Nico: In case it wasn't clear from the "I don't think..." at the beginning of that statement, I'd like to point out that I was stating my interpretation of what Lithium was saying, not my personal perspective on the matter. (See? We found another 'loaded' word - perversion.)

I personally do not give a flying fuck (hurr) about who puts what in/on who or where they put it, as long as everyone involved is consenting to it.

[Karmilla Strife]

Regarding the OP: language and who I associate with...

I don't tolerate racist/sexist/homophobic slurs, or actual RL threats. Other than that, if someone is rude or crude, whatever. Either I can harden up and deal with it or I ignore them. It's just words. If the goal isn't meant to deliberately inflame, I don't care. I work for the state, I have to deal with sensitivity and anti-harassment in the workplace. While these aren't bad things, they are certainly something I associate with work. Eve is recreation, it's my chance to be a little immature, to argue, to spaceship violence, and to have a relaxed time. I don't think terms like "circlejerk" are "bad" enough to warrant a response. It's vulgar, but it's not harmful in my opinion.

*Caveat: I'm ex-military, I'm very accustomed to vulgar conversation*

[Steffanie Saissore]

I am of two minds about the original post (I understand that OP is accepted, but I am clarifying to make a point).


I agree that we should be more aware of the words we use when we communicate solely through the use of text.  There is no tone to hear, no body language to see.  All we have are the words that are before us and without context or careful consideration, what might have been meant as a 'harmless' joke or sarcastic comment is in turn interpreted as an insult.  Another part of the issue is language...the fact that the internet lets everyone from all corners of the world communicate in real-time with each other causes more issues as colloquialisms and slang have different meanings even among English-as-a-first-language cultures, let alone places where English is not the default language.


Because of spelling (and spelling mistakes) and the grasp of grammar can vary greatly, we again run into another problem of communicating intent.  I make mistakes all the time, even if spell-check doesn't show an error doesn't mean I used the wrong iteration of the word (their, there, they're for example).  So, in the sake of clear communication with a look towards using words that hold negative connotations and evoke negative feelings, our words do need to be chosen carefully.


Another issue I have with communication and the internet is the use of acronyms and purposely misspelling of words.  Yes, I use Twitter, and do make use of acronyms and I understand the intent in their use.  Where I have an issue with it is the assumption that everyone knows what you mean.  Maybe it is is laziness on my part, but if I am reading something, I don't want to have to stop and look up what a specific acronym means.


Now, the part of me that I find might be in disagreement with the OP; I am a writer (not published...working on it, but have a ways to go) and I studied English in university.  Without boring you all with the history of the English language, it does pain me somewhat to see how words have been debased over the years because we have decided to replace the original definition or meaning of the word with, in most cases, derogatory definitions.  This has been especially true with the homophobic element of society.  Once there was a time that if you were going to get the fire going in the fireplace, you'd throw in a couple of faggots to get the fire started.  However, that word has been debased to mean something else entirely and because of such cannot be properly used unless you happen to be writing a historic paper (fiction or non-fiction) or are purposefully being an insensitive jerk to someone's sexual orientation.


I understand the need to be sensitive...I am an empathetic person and am very much of a 'can't we all just get along' mindset and I do get very wound up when there are arguments and fights.  My only concern with using a more neutral approach to a situation might cause more problems than it helps, but I could also be wrong.


Things would be better if we could 'see' the meaning behind the words that are written.  And no, I don't want us to all have telepathy...I really don't want to know what most people might be thinking and I doubt most people would want to hear my thoughts.


Ultimately, I understand where Schere is coming from and am supportive of the concept.  I try to be respectful and thoughtful when I reply (both in a forum setting and in-game channels).  I would also venture to say that we also need to understand that there might be other things going on with another person when they reply in a certain way.  Guess all I'm trying to say is: respect each other  .


I could go on, but I think I have gone past the point of rambling and will cut myself off at this point.

[Nicoletta Mithra]

Creep, Nico: In case it wasn't clear from the "I don't think..." at the beginning of that statement, I'd like to point out that I was stating my interpretation of what Lithium was saying, not my personal perspective on the matter. (See? We found another 'loaded' word - perversion.)

I personally do not give a flying fuck (hurr) about who puts what in/on who or where they put it, as long as everyone involved is consenting to it.

Didn't understand it to be your opinion, Morwen, don't worry. 
I didn't meant to aim at you, if it came across like that, I'm sorry.

[Scherezad]

Thanks for everyones' opinions - I'm glad there are a number of comments on this, from all points of view. A clarification and expansion, then.

First a clarification. I wasn't suggesting we police language, at all. People will speak as they will speak, and that's a good thing. The post was more to raise awareness of how our speech affects the group as a whole, and the fragmenting nature of this sort of language. Even if we, personally, are used to the vulgarity of some of the words we use, those words will have an effect, especially on those who are less used to them. You can say HTFU all you like to those who are made uncomfortable by it, but that won't change the isolating nature of the terms.

Second, an expansion. Just because I don't think the term "circle jerk" should be used doesn't mean I am denying the harsher realities of social groups. Bad things can and do happen when groups isolate themselves from one another - I've been on both sides of this formula, receiving and causing, and neither is much fun. I apologize for the latter, and forgive for the former.

The vitriolic nature of these groups activities are a function of why the group exists - a social release valve for people who feel marginalized or isolated, or a "safe space" where people can let their guard down a little and say what they feel. This is how we form lasting friendships and how we maintain them, by creating these "in-groups" where we feel most at home. An unpleasant side effect is the tendency of these groups to complain to one another about what bothers them.

I find it interesting that using terms such as "circle jerk" only reinforces the tendency of people to fragment into their in-groups instead of bringing up issues to the Community as a whole. It seems to be self-reinforcing. I've got no studies on that, though, but that's how it seems at first glance to me.

[Shintoko Akahoshi]

My point is that basically any time you use a term that describes an activity or group as a negative term you are implicitly insulting that activity or group. Another similar example that I have seen recently is the constant use of "Jew" as a verb for stealing LP in Militia chat.

Agreed. So frickin' agreed.

As an aside, I have been known to blow the crap out of blues in the past as a reaction to these sorts of things. It's good to react strongly to this sort of hateful speech. And in Eve, we have the opportunity to back up our reactions with missiles!

[Merdaneth]

Speaking of sexist language: what's with all the fluffling in OOC chat channels? 

Sometimes there is a real outbreak of circle-fluffling....

[Makkal]

Don't like it? Go fluffle yourself. 

[Steffanie Saissore]

My point is that basically any time you use a term that describes an activity or group as a negative term you are implicitly insulting that activity or group. Another similar example that I have seen recently is the constant use of "Jew" as a verb for stealing LP in Militia chat.

This is one of the reasons why I left the Army Cadets and didn't pursue a career in the military.  The default insult for messing up was to be called "Jew" and the scary thing was, I found myself starting to respond in kind.  That's when I knew I had to step away.  I also know that, in the heat of the moment, I have said things that I later regretted.  If I say something offensive, call me on it. I rather address the issue sooner than later.

[Pieter Tuulinen]

I find it interesting that using terms such as "circle jerk" only reinforces the tendency of people to fragment into their in-groups instead of bringing up issues to the Community as a whole. It seems to be self-reinforcing. I've got no studies on that, though, but that's how it seems at first glance to me.

That's certainly how I interpret it. I know it was used as a means of calling attention to a behaviour that the user found distressing and anti-social, but by defining it that way it simply made me want to close ranks in a way that I hadn't been feeling at all in the first place - quite the opposite result of the original intention.

[lallara zhuul]

You might want to dig into Chatsubo and find out the when, the why and the who of the term circlejerk when it originally surfaced in the RP circles of EVE.

[Vincent Pryce]

[Natalcya Katla]

For the sake of curiosity, would any of you consider purely in-game slurs (as in, slurs that don't make sense outside of an IC context) to be offensive language in an OOC sense?

As an example, back when AST-F was still going strong-ish, some of us (all right, mostly I) used to toss around the expressions "dirtlings" (meaning planetsiders) and "dirtling proxies" (meaning spacers acting on behalf of planetsiders) around a lot. These expressions were clearly slurs, and absolutely designed to be. I counted on some negative reactions to it IC, but pretty much assumed it would be okay from an OOC point of view, since we players are all "dirtlings" anyway. Would any of you consider it offensive simply on grounds of it being a slur, though?

[Steffanie Saissore]

In terms of IC slurs...for the most part I tend to be a little more lenient than others so long as I know the insults are purely IC.  There are some terms that I would still take offence to; the way in which I would handle the situation would be to send the person a private message OOC stating my feelings about the comment and try to work it out.

[Katrina Oniseki]

Unfortunately, many race based slurs that would fit EVE races would also likely be offensive OOC too, even if we made them up from scratch. Like, anti-Brutor comments, or anti-JinMei comments.