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[BloodBird]

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

[kalaratiri]

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.

[Caellach Marellus]

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.

Because they won't give information to Joe public during a criminal investigation? The irrational frustration caused at someone doing their job has lead into a scenario where they want a relationship with their enemies? Apart from the fact that's spiteful and a disservice to those who've been allies and supported you for years, it's also a very poor way to build any new relationship, and kinda mocks Caldari intelligence.

Looking at it ICly if you took the IGS thread where there are Matari demanding Tribal law is more important than whoever's jurisdiction they happen to be in, as well as demands for information to essentially public figures during a criminal investigation. They're getting offended because unreasonable requests are getting rejected, if the Matari involved were to go "Well sod you then we'll go somewhere else." you think the State is going to look at what caused the split and want any of it?

I mean just imagine the first time the Matari demanded Tribal law take precedent in the State. 


I love the concept and idea, because there shouldn't be a real reason for war between the two and a means to form and forge peace. But the way it's coming about seems to be out of spite and out of the idea that the Caldari are going to hand on a silver platter what the Federation wouldn't.

The issue I have with this is that the characters (not the players) of several of the Matari looking to jump into this, are the type who will make demands and if not served point the finger of blame at the other side of the relationship as being a bad partner, rather than deal with their own obvious issues of feelings of entitlement.

Now this isn't by any means a definition of all the Matari who'd probably get involved into this, but there are some who simply have a selfish "take what we can" attitude to relationships. It's shown for ages with time and again posts again the Federation whenever something isn't going their way, it'll show here with the first bit of tension against such a relationship.

And that'll suck, because some of us have characters who dream of peace. 

[Caellach Marellus]

Well christ knows how this post happened...

[BloodBird]

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.

I was really hoping this would not be the response, that the idea that a single recent issue would make characters 'fed up' with others despite of how long a relationship? Seriously I figured it was something else, something older and more defined.

[kalaratiri]

Don't take my word as the whole story by any means. I'm not even subscribed any more, this is purely what I've gleaned from various other forums.

[Morwen Lagann]

The Matari are stuffing broken shards of glass up their asses over the Federation doing exactly what the Republic would've done had the situation been reversed.

It's a loud, noisy display of human hypocrisy and little else - it shouldn't be interpreted as anything more than that, imo.

On-topic: My reservations about this kind of thing, IC, are based around the difference between capsuleer support and baseliner support. While plenty of independent capsuleers (players) will support such an initiative because they can, it should not be expected that the baseliner population (the Matari population, anyway) will see this as anything less than treason.

We're talking about allying with the group that is allied with and actively provides military and economic support to the Empire that not only enslaved them once, but is still actively trying to enslave them again. Good luck convincing the average baseliner that this is a good idea - "the friend of my enemy is my enemy" is likely to be the prevailing opinion there.

OOC? Have fun. Can't provide direct support, but depending on where things go and how they're presented, Morwen might be able to justify some low-level background help.

[Lyn Farel]

To make me position on the matter clearer, I do believe that no faction has more nor less affinities with one of the 3 others ones, and believing otherwise seems very alien to me, like delusional. I strongly believe that we can find parallels between everyone of them, as well as opposites.

With that in mind, I am not sure to see why such a fuss about it. I wish you good fortune on your endeavours.

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.

Because they won't give information to Joe public during a criminal investigation? The irrational frustration caused at someone doing their job has lead into a scenario where they want a relationship with their enemies? Apart from the fact that's spiteful and a disservice to those who've been allies and supported you for years, it's also a very poor way to build any new relationship, and kinda mocks Caldari intelligence.

Looking at it ICly if you took the IGS thread where there are Matari demanding Tribal law is more important than whoever's jurisdiction they happen to be in, as well as demands for information to essentially public figures during a criminal investigation. They're getting offended because unreasonable requests are getting rejected, if the Matari involved were to go "Well sod you then we'll go somewhere else." you think the State is going to look at what caused the split and want any of it?

I mean just imagine the first time the Matari demanded Tribal law take precedent in the State. 


I love the concept and idea, because there shouldn't be a real reason for war between the two and a means to form and forge peace. But the way it's coming about seems to be out of spite and out of the idea that the Caldari are going to hand on a silver platter what the Federation wouldn't.

The issue I have with this is that the characters (not the players) of several of the Matari looking to jump into this, are the type who will make demands and if not served point the finger of blame at the other side of the relationship as being a bad partner, rather than deal with their own obvious issues of feelings of entitlement.

Now this isn't by any means a definition of all the Matari who'd probably get involved into this, but there are some who simply have a selfish "take what we can" attitude to relationships. It's shown for ages with time and again posts again the Federation whenever something isn't going their way, it'll show here with the first bit of tension against such a relationship.

And that'll suck, because some of us have characters who dream of peace. 

Go tell them that ICly, that's a magnificent IC argument I think.

[Makkal]

Right. I can think of a number of IC arguments as to why the State would not want to be allies with the Republic.

I mean, the Minmatar have become the 3rd largest ethnic group in the Federation and aren't interested in cultural integration. What happens when they decide to immigrate en mass to the State? They could overwhelm the existing populations and they mostly give no shits about the megacorps.

But, Minmatar and Caldari capsuleers coming together to be buddies has nothing to do with actual relations to the State and the Republic. Makkal keeps quiet and occasionally rolls her eyes when capsuleers from both side wax poetic about how their nations could be BFFs.

[Stitcher]

Friendly request: this is the OOC discussion for the project. If we're going to have conversations about the in-character objections, could we maybe start having them in IC channels and threads? kthxbai.

[Katarina Musana]

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude.

Apparently I'm quite ignorant.

You will need to elaborate on this.

For the most part this has been pretty low key or internalised, but recently with the federation's reluctance to give any information at all as to the identity/motive/anything of Midular's shooter, quite a few Minmatar are starting to get pretty fed up with the Gallente.

I was really hoping this would not be the response, that the idea that a single recent issue would make characters 'fed up' with others despite of how long a relationship? Seriously I figured it was something else, something older and more defined.

The incident that Kalara referred to is more akin to the straw that broke the camel's back in regards to becoming "fed up."

It's something that's been a long time in the building. Again, I would rather have this argument IC, but here's a summary of what my character sees/argues.

The Federation chose to help/defend the Minmatar people from the Amarr Empire after the Minmatar Rebellion. We're grateful for that, we really are.
The Federation helped us set up a new government. We appreciate the sentiment, but a democracy doesn't really work for us. It doesn't mesh quite right with our Tribal culture.
The Federation accepted very large numbers of our people into their nation as citizens. We would prefer they had stayed with the Republic, but things have been rocky here, so it's understandable.
That's how it all started. As to how it has built up, well, the Federation has consistently and continually looked down on the Republic/Minmatar people as a primitive, barbaric group that needs to be "uplifted" to Federation ideology. The Federation consistently and continually shows condescension towards the Minmatar Republic/people, treating them like children, or even, in many ways, as a vassal state. Minmatar citizens of the Federation are in many ways second-class citizens. Their culture is looked at as a novelty, amusing when the overall situation is irrelevant, but something to be tossed out the window whenever the Federation deems it irrelevant to current goings-on, such as this latest incident involving the shooter who left Midular in the state she's currently in.

Now, from an OOC perspective, I can see how in some instances the Minmatar may well be reading too much into things, but there is definitely reason for the Minmatar to feel frustrated, and that frustration builds up over time. It's not that the Minmatar are ungrateful for the original help and the defensive assistance they have received from the Federation. They very much are, even if their pride makes them seem otherwise at times. That does not mean, however, that the Federation and the Republic are a good match. Their alliance is an alliance of convenience for the Republic and part of the Federation policy to spread "Freedom and Democracy" to the Galaxy. It has nothing to do with any real mutual respect or understanding, thus why it has fostered so much negativity on both sides. The Federation appears to see the Republic as ungrateful barbarians who refuse to accept the gift of democracy and rage at the every little "imagined" slight, while the Minmatar are seeing the Federation as overbearing, condescending assholes.

Politically, the alliance continues to stand because the Republic does still need the Federation's help to not be overrun by the Amarr Empire and the Federation continues in its attempt to push the Republic into becoming a clone of the Federation (if not eventually being adopted into the Federation altogether).

How long the politics can keep the alliance together is a matter of how long things can go before the rift building between the people spills over completely into the politics of it all. This is particularly bad for the Republic unless they can either get their points across to the Federation or find new allies.

For any further explanation of the Minmatar perspective on this, you'll have to talk to Katarina Musana, or other similarly minded Minmatar, ICly.

[Desiderya]

My advice, late night, and half brain-dead:
- Find a core of players interested and actually willing to commit to your project.
- Develop a plan for in-game activities that could work without the RP premise you're aiming at.
- Furnish it with your desired RP angle.
- Launch it.

[Silver Night]

Friendly request: this is the OOC discussion for the project. If we're going to have conversations about the in-character objections, could we maybe start having them in IC channels and threads? kthxbai.

[mod]I'm going to add a friendly moderator note that the discussion should get back on the topic of Stitcher's proposal specifically. There is another thread (IIRC) where we were discussing the broader issue, feel free to resuscitate it if you want to discuss why the Minmatar and Caldari have/don't have the potential to be friends.[/mod]

[Publius Valerius]

"you're working with the people who make TCMCs!"

"Yes: I figure if we foster good relations with the Caldari we can convince them to stop selling to the Amarr, thereby weakening the slaver's hold on our brothers and sisters!"
"Yes: I'm also working with the people who made Insorum and gave it to the Elders for free. They're not all bad!"
"Yes: I'm hoping to get the Gallente on board as well and then the three of us can gang up on those Amarr bastards"
"Yes: So what? The money's good."

Controversy is fertile ground in which good characters (And parasitic ones) grow.

*

Anyway, is "TonyG" a verb now?

Actually yes and it is my fault  . I had made ones on the official EVE forum a long (very long) a boring post about the errors which he had done. I very short form a TonyG is:

If you split your magic/tools/choices/etc. along of your individuals/groups/factions/etc. to get a certain outcome, which you normally wouldnt get. If you want more, and some examples from his book just ask.

_________________

As for the thread, to come back to the topic, and not to make the mods angry    For the comment here: http://backstage.eve-inspiracy.com/index.php?topic=4702.msg74765#msg74765 "I don't give a rat's arse" :O *When Publius is one day back, he will set his standing to Stitcher to -10. Because every decision/move should have his/its outcome, you cant have it all  *

[Louella Dougans]

Tibus Heth thinks it's a good idea, lol. The Sebiestor tribe, not so much.

http://community.eveonline.com/news/news-channels/world-news/tibus-heth-offer-of-caldari-aid-to-sebiestor-tribe-rejected-1/