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[Stitcher]

"you're working with the people who make TCMCs!"

"Yes: I figure if we foster good relations with the Caldari we can convince them to stop selling to the Amarr, thereby weakening the slaver's hold on our brothers and sisters!"
"Yes: I'm also working with the people who made Insorum and gave it to the Elders for free. They're not all bad!"
"Yes: I'm hoping to get the Gallente on board as well and then the three of us can gang up on those Amarr bastards"
"Yes: So what? The money's good."

Controversy is fertile ground in which good characters (And parasitic ones) grow.

*

Anyway, is "TonyG" a verb now? What does it mean, exactly? Because if it means "to arbitrarily and aggressively upset the status quo" then I've got news for you: aggressively changing the status quo is perfectly okay when it's the PLAYERS who are doing it, and if it's accomplished through hard work, some inevitable setbacks, and the collective effort of a few hundred players, then any change thus effected will not have been arbitrary.

In any case, the mere fact that I have an end result I'd like to see attained does not mean that I expect that it shall be. Aelisha's quite right, the focus is on "doing" not on "achieving". I'm not anticipating overnight results, nor am I anticipating an arbitrary sea change in the status of the storyline or the technology of the game overnight. You don't get that kind of change without massive effort.

My thought process here is not "Falcon's a bro, he'll make our dreams come true". That'd just insult his professionalism and in any case would rather undermine the entertainment and satisfaction we'd get from doing all the work ourselves.

My thought process is "My character has spent the last two years getting to know the Matari and now truly believes that closer relationships between the Republic and the State are possible. He's going to go for it, if he can drum up the support". I let my RP lead my game, and this is just the next logical step for me. If I can get people on board with that - great!

[Katarina Musana]

Some the republic loyalist folk seem to like to brush over a good deal of backstory of their own faction and their current allied faction. Much as many republic loyalists hate to admit it but there would be no Republic of any shape or form had it not been for the Federation taking the fledgling nation state under their wing. Sure, these two faction don't see always eye to eye, but their relationship for the majority has been a beneficial one, especially for the Republic. Now that Republic is starting to get to it's own to feet finally it would be unwise of them to betray their long time ally for a mere possibility of something with the State. Tribal, non-tribal, that's just incredibly bad politics as currently really only empire entity that can stand toe to toe with the Amarr Empire is the Gallente Federation based purely on the size of their armadas. Caldari seem to be stretched extremely thin in lore just when they were holding Caladri Prime. If they had to fight the two largest empires in the cluster they'd surely crumble. I can only imagine how the Amarr Empire with their slightly irrational Empress would react to the State shacking up with the Republic.

This isn't about what is definitely the best idea. It's about a possibility that many Minmatar who have grown extremely disillusioned with the Federation are interested in and a number of Caldari are interested in for various reasons.

As for your comment about the Minmatar and the Federation, no one is glossing over anything. Even my Character who is anti-Federation and pro-Caldari acknowledges that the Minmatar have needed the Federation, at least in the past. That has nothing to do with what these Minmatar believe is better for the future, however, regardless of whether it actually -is- better for the future.

As for if a full alliance between the Caldari and Minmatar happened, it might or might not end well. The Federation and Empire would be very unlikely to unite against the Caldari and Minmatar, though even as separate entities they would be problematic, but at the same time, such an alliance between the Caldari and Minmatar could even work in the favor of future Caldari-Gallente relations, which could in the long-term lead to a united front of 3 nations against the Empire. Is it likely? No idea, but it's one of many possibilities, dependant on a massive number of varials between the "now" and the "then" that may all be irrelevant if the attempt of this corp alliance ends up falling flat anyway (which we all know, even those of us wanting to make it happen, is entirely posssible and that's one of the reasons we want to do this, to see which way it goes).

[Vincent Pryce]

My outlook and comment is based on just what I've seen on a few OOC channels when people have discussing it - and the way they have been discussing it. I welcome you to prove me wrong and make this work and provide a rich field of in depth well thought RP fodder. However, my faith isn't exactly high at the moment.

We'll see.

[Desiderya]

The Minmatar-Caldari border is an interesting place. It'd certainly benefit from a few more RPers around.
There are also Ishukone and Kaalakiota stations in the republic border region. I think there's room for a cooperation, at least on a strict business and local level.

Regarding TCMCs. They're not built explicitly for the purpose many holders use the for. They'll be built, and therefore sold. It'd be naive to assume that a direct trade ban with the empire would stop the flow of goods or the proliferation of the technology. Someone used/forced to rely on TCMCs might take a look at Vitoc again, too. Pretty sure that'd be a great boon!

So this can be spun many ways. Trade agreements and relations exist between the State and all empires, as you'll find its stations all over the place.

[K_Wiroshoda]

Vincent Pryce's thoughts sums up mine well. The use of "TonyG" as a verb indicates the forcing through of storylines arbitrarily (without consideration for holistic factors) "because it's cool". There does not seem to be a holistic consideration as there is a large amount of confirmation bias in exploring Caldari and Minmatar similarities. For example, how would the Caldari feel about the decidedly unmeritocratic nature of the Voluval? While the Caldari corporations and Minmatar tribes possess values of kinship, this does not automatically make them similar. A Caldari corporation is meritocratic, while a Minmatar tribe is based on seniority and/or other factors such as the Voluval.

In addition, I am not convinced the Gallente Federation wholesale fail to understand tribal society either, considering one-third of its population is Minmatar. What gives the impression the Caldari would understand it anymore than the pluralistic Federation? In addition, surely it would be better to improve relations with the Gallente Federation which would, in turn, improve relations with the Minmatar Republic? Cynically, I see this as unlikely, because for reasons I haven't been able to fathom yet, the Gallente are the least popular RP faction. This comes despite the fact that the Gallente/Caldari are cut from the same cloth in terms of structural layout and legal principles (rule of law etc.). They are both capitalistic, after all, but I get the impression that Gallente/Caldari similarities would be talked down as less coherent than Minmatar/Caldari overlaps.

That being said, I'm sure the Caldari would love to exploit the weak Minmatar economy, but I severely doubt they would seek to improve relations with the Minmatar because of Gallente-style righteousness. In the end, though, I would encourage proponents of this alliance to read up on game theory and realpolitik if they desire authenticity in this RP. As was pointed out elsewhere, alliances are not built on cultural similarities, but strategic concerns.

[Stitcher]

I'm not sure how often I have to repeat that this is about "doing something cool" not "forcing something arbitrary" until people get it but believe me, I'm that stupid tenacious that I will if I have to.

The point of this whole commission is "We can respect each other and work together despite disagreeing. We have no right to interfere in your system, and you have no right to interfere in ours. Let's confine this venture to what we DO have in common, to how we can benefit one another, and stay out of each others' business unless invited."

[Halete]

I'd be interested in seeing this. Halete has always been one of the vocal advocates for Caldari/Minmatar relations. The kicker being she likely wouldn't get involved due to that 'Republic' key-word. But ain't I used to that by now.

For the people accusing those pushing the alliance as not taking holistic considerations; lol.

This idea has been going around for literally years. The most involved individuals are fully aware of the various factors at work. NONE of the alliances in EVE's lore are ideal. It's also frankly something you should take to IC and leave out of OOC.

[Lasairiona]

If you're passionate about the idea and work hard, I see no reason why it can't work. So what if it strays from "the norm"? Go for it.

[Silver Night]

I don't see it as arbitrary - at least, in that there have been players with the idea that the Minmatar and Caldari really don't have a reason to be fighting since the beginning of FW (myself included), and a number of reasons to not fight. I'd say that it was the two of them being at war that was a bit arbitrary. As far as TCMCs (which are not only supplied by 'Caldari', but by Ishukone), international relations are tricky like that. It wouldn't be interesting if there were no source of conflict. On the other hand, all those Caldari stations in the Republic probably aren't just making bottlecaps.

[Adreena Madeveda]

Ha! Somewhat reasonable, but then it appears this endeavor is more "Because it's cool", no?

It always was "because it's cool".

I've been successfully doing "Caldari who is pro-Minmatar" RP for more than two years now. Take it from me, it's a valid angle that can and does work. I honestly couldn't care less about the objections, the entire point is to try this DESPITE the objections.

I want to do this, and I want to see how successful it all gets not because I'm certain it will amount to anything but precisely because I'm NOT certain. I want to try something cool and see what grows out of it purely for the sake of trying something cool to see what grows out of it. The idea is to do something that's fun and enjoy doing it, not to pin my hopes on a specific outcome.

Of course I'd LIKE for the storyline to reflect our efforts, or for new ships to be added to the game based on our actions, or something like that. But first and foremost I want to have fun with a crucible for good roleplay that explores the relationship between two peoples who've been at odds for some time and are only just now starting to question why.

Think of this as a Minecraft survival mode project - the objective is to build something, but most of the fun of building it comes from overcoming the challenges on the way. The difference is that instead of having to deal with Creepers and the search for diamonds, we're competing with other players. If you succeed, great! you can feel proud. If not, you at least had fun making the attempt.

Since there's no like button : ^ this

And to expand :
There are historical examples of soldiers respecting and befriending their enemies and kept fighting the next day, though begrudgingly.
The alliance between the fereration and the republic is more than a century old and oh crap whatever justification I my find will be countered by an equally valid counter justification.

So far it's about individuals and the choice they make. So far, it's strictly about roleplaying something and enjoying it. I don't care a single bit about whatever outcome this may have. Assuming whoever is interested in this rp is about to break the game and/or the lore because of remote and highly improbable consequences is ludicrous. We're setting a cool kids table. We absolutely are. We're not stealing anything from anyone doing so. We're not diminishing anyone's enjoyment of the game doing so : we set the foundations of our own. There are plenty of potential cool kids tables in the Eve universe. Go set them, have fun.

[Desiderya]

Yo, at some point there also was a Caldari/Gallente thing, and for what it's worth the ascent of the caldari is owed to the federation as well.

[K_Wiroshoda]

The reason I am dissenting is because I may be interested so long as I'm convinced this is grounded on a sound basis rather than being a "cool kid's table" as Adreena Madeveda described it as.

For example, there seems to be an element of "shutting out" the Gallente dimension. The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all. This may be a case of groupthink, which makes me uncomfortable participating, as much as I would love to.

[Katarina Musana]

In addition, I am not convinced the Gallente Federation wholesale fail to understand tribal society either, considering one-third of its population is Minmatar.

No one has said that no one in the Federation understands tribal society. There are people who do, in particular Matari who are Federation Citizens. They're not part of the Federation government, which is where the real problem lies. This is really an argument I would rather have IC. It's more a matter of the government and a significant portion (possibly majority) of the Federation public not understanding and not really tolerating it as more than a novelty.

The Caldari wouldn't necessarily fully understand the Minmatar, but they have a better reference point for understanding the importance/significance of Tribe/clan, for example. They may  not agree with all aspects of the society, but they can understand significant points of the society more easily.

All of this equates to a group of Caldari and a group of Minmatar deciding to try a joint venture and see if maybe they can influence things for the better in the long run because they like each other.

[Adreena Madeveda]

The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all.

Again : individuals and the choices they make. The alliance is between the Republic and the Federation

[Katarina Musana]

The reason I am dissenting is because I may be interested so long as I'm convinced this is grounded on a sound basis rather than being a "cool kid's table" as Adreena Madeveda described it as.

For example, there seems to be an element of "shutting out" the Gallente dimension. The justifications behind the Gallente/Minmatar alliance are discredited, or simply not brought up at all. This may be a case of groupthink, which makes me uncomfortable participating, as much as I would love to.

The "it's cool" thing is more a matter of a bunch of us noticed through our IC interactions that we've got a decent number of Minmatar getting sick of the Fed's attitude and relating well with Caldari while a decent number of Caldari are relating well with the Minmatar, well enough anyway, and have discussed the idea of "what if the caldari were our allies instead of the FEds?" Then OOC, we're like "Hey, let's see if we can do something with this, since our characters are already interested."