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[Anslol]

But you're assuming an egger flyboy would be in every single combat situation. I'm not saying that. I'm saying in the rare, odd, or dangerous situation where the mission is highly specialized and requires a bit more tact than just go in and shoot.

If a capsuleer has a body modified for stealth and he wants to go in and get someone out who was kidnapped for whatever reason, why shouldn't he be the one to do it? I'm sorry but I refuse to subscribe to this absolute black and white division where eggers are simply not very useful on the battlefield. There are too many situations where a moded capsuleer like Anslo would be a bit smarter to use than some lunky soldier.

[Louella Dougans]

I remember a thing way back, when Mum and I had to rescue some dude who had been kidnapped by Blood Raiders.

What happened was, when a fortuitous mission spawned, we went in and pewed the Blood raider ships, and stood off to watch for reinforcement waves, while a third player flew in in a cruiser to deploy troops to the station to extract the hostage.

As much as Mum or I would have wanted to be present with the rescue party, it was far more important to have the ships fully operational, and have the wide-eyed overview of what was going on.


maybe it's like the difference between an officer and an enlisted man in soldiering. If the officer's actively engaged in fighting house to house, he won't have the situational awareness to properly command all the other men.

[lallara zhuul]

Well, I guess the problem arises from the fact that even in a special situation like that a specialist would be a better choice, if you want to succeed in that situation.

After you are a capsuleer your specialty is flying ships.

Even if you would have a specialized body for a specialist mission, it takes time for you to familiarize with the implants and all the new tech involved, while a specialist would have had the mission done before you have learned to walk on your boosted legs without hitting the ceiling when you get surprised.

The life of a capsuleer kind of disqualifies you from being a specialist in anything else than being one, at least a good specialist, because you simply do have time to keep updating your skillset and being top notch in more than one thing.

You can be a crappy capsuleer and a so-so specialist in another field.

If you want to be a good capsuleer it will mean that you will be a crappy specialist in another field.

There is only that much time and dedication to go around.

[Silas Vitalia]

I tend to have difficulty relating to the 'walking fortress' rp types as well:

With other capsuleers I can use all sorts of metrics to determine my interaction and my internal 'power metrics' sort of rankings:

are they wealthy, are they an ace pilot, are they extremely popular and have followers, etc? What is the change of them influencing me in game for x, y, or z reasons or capabilities?

This makes it easier for me the RPer to relate or not relate to them and assess my interactions.

When I don't have any of that other information, but all I have is 'im a super cyborg death machine that will totally kill you in person' my IC reaction is to just laugh.

[Anslol]

Why would it take time? How do you know they weren't specialized in that kind of Op pre-egg? To top that off, why would it take time to learn the implants? Just download the combat software. You have the ability to cram mountains of info into your brain. Your definition of an egger makes them seem so limited in what they can do when the very basis of Eve makes their capabilities so boundless and broad that saying 'no you can only fly a ship and that's final' seem like it's backwards thinking.

I mean for crying out loud it takes some people 2-3 DAYS to learn how to fly an entire SHIP. That's a SHIP. What's stopping them from downloading some kind of quick combat control software and targeting systems to help them fight? Compared to training to fly a ship, that should take maybe 5 minutes. You severely underestimate the abilities of a capsuleer.

Edit: Just for the record, I am not condoning god moding invincible tank of mass destruction sort of egger. That's just...silly. But I can't agree with eggers not being allowed to have combat implants or modifications or growths. That's just...limiting the potential story lines that could emerge for absolutely no reason. Have the mods, just make sure you have a weakness. There's a lot of flaws Anslo has mentally and physically that can mess him up good in a fight.

[lallara zhuul]

You misunderstand the capabilities of a capsuleer.

Skillbooks modify your nervous system so that a capsuleer will function as a better piece of hardware in a ship.

Skillbooks do not teach you any skills.

The piloting skills of a capsuleer are very, very limited.

They are the same as yours as a player.

Manual piloting is awkward at best, most of the actual use of the ship is automated and only functions better than a baseliner ship because of you, the capsuleer, being better (and cheaper) hardware than the baseliners have.

The pilots in the Gallente-Caldari war most likely had completely different interface in their ships that the contemporary capsuleers, enabling them to pilot their fighter ships more efficiently than baseliner pilots, but that is something of the past.

Skillbooks are not real skills.

[Anslol]

Ok, fine they're not real skills. I get that. But I don't see what's preventing that same methodology from being applied to muscle memory by modifying a variety of electrical impulses and their catalysts, or hell just having an implant in your brain to download information and knowledge. There's NOTHING preventing something like that. Hell, we're maybe 50-100 years from that happening in the real world. Look at me right in the eye and say that it's not possible in New Eden for a capsuleer to download either information on how to fight or download some kind of nervous system and muscle modification something or other to allow them to fight.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

The question is why would you?  You, as a capsuleer, are only special in as much as your brain doesn't go into lockup when you get connected to your ship.  You are immortal (p. much guaranteed) as long as you are in your pod.  Who would take this pilot then, who is very special in  that he can pilot a 2500 ton (minimum) ship with his brain, and say "We're going to go and make you a commando and give you stealth technology and everything." and then in the process remove them from the pod, the one thing that they are special for being able to use properly.

Why risk that asset?

[Silas Vitalia]

It just starts to get too Mary Sue for me in the end.  It's like being an immortal, wealthy, cyborg space captain who can blow up other spaceships -with your mind- isn't enough, we also have to be super tough physically?

[kalaratiri]

This sort of thing is one reason why I always kept Kala rather diminutive physically. Short and not strong, no extra cybernetics etc. And she always was awful at physical combat training I believe Ava did something similar.

It's actually something I rather like about capsuleers; a small, weak person, male or female can be 'stronger' than a big, physically tough person through the benefit of their wealth, connections and influence. You don't have to be a tank to make an impact.

[Anslol]

@Tibs: Because not everyone is under control of a government. Some people are independent and just handle things their own way. While this is not the case for everyone (you're quite right), some people want to do it, plain and simple. They want to be modified, for one way or the other.

@Silas: Obviously there are limits to what is and isn't 'too much.' Like I said, a big walking tank of death that can't be killed AND is a capsuleer is getting into 'wat' realms. But someone who's modified to say...use a sniper REALLY stupidly well, or modified to engage in hand to hand a bit better (i.e. reinforced arms and fists etc), I don't see a problem in that. When it comes down to it, it's all about balance.

Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.

Also also, moded people and violencing makes life interesting. I don't know about you, but just sitting in Summit arguing the same things again and again and seeing the same discussions again and again while we wait for CCP to further an arc is just not fun. We have it well within ourselves to make our own arcs and own fun, so why not do it with violencing and the occasional freaky modder? It's a game, let's have fun with it!

[Saede Riordan]

In general I subscribe to the idea that Capsuleers' main demonstration of power comes from their wealth, influence, and mental faculties. Capsuleers who emphasize their physical capabilities in personal encounters are in the weird grey zone that doesn't seem to mesh with their archetype. There are undoubtedly some, or many, that do so merely as a left-over from their traditional human upbringing.

It has its place in the cybernetic world of Capsuleerdom. I don't see its usefulness in roleplay, but I know a few people who find it central in theirs. As a trend, I see physical values emphasized more among 'humanized' Capsuleers than the 'I am a God' starship overlords.

I tend to agree with the above. I play a character who is basically a cybernetic body with a nervous system, but even so she's not much tougher then an average person. She's very much not a supersoldier or an elite assassin, her only real fight experiences were neighbourhood brawls as a kid. She's not indestructible (though she might dent instead of bruising), she has a bit better reflexes, and can do some neat tricks, but she's not a supersoldier and has no reason to be. She's a scientist, that's her archetype. I very much wanted to make her modifications a point of her personal preferences as a character and not to just be more powerful. I don't really have that much of a problem with the supersoldier capsuleers, but it tends to make me shake my head a bit and wonder why they aren't just playing DUST. To me, EVE is a game of wealth, intrigue, and war. It almost seems like it would be beneath a capsuleer to try to fight it out on their own.

[Karmilla Strife]

Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.

I think I remember a scene when cyberknight Aldrith got wasted off of half a drink because he had so little organic body mass left. Could have been someone else though.

[Tiberious Thessalonia]

@Tibs: Because not everyone is under control of a government. Some people are independent and just handle things their own way. While this is not the case for everyone (you're quite right), some people want to do it, plain and simple. They want to be modified, for one way or the other.

@Silas: Obviously there are limits to what is and isn't 'too much.' Like I said, a big walking tank of death that can't be killed AND is a capsuleer is getting into 'wat' realms. But someone who's modified to say...use a sniper REALLY stupidly well, or modified to engage in hand to hand a bit better (i.e. reinforced arms and fists etc), I don't see a problem in that. When it comes down to it, it's all about balance.

Also, imo, IF you're going to be super moded, you need to have some kind of negative side effect. For instance, electrical pulses could mess your implants up, infections could REALLY screw you over, or just a plain old shot to the head you can't avoid. If you take a 50 cal sniper and put it to someone's head, I don't care if you have the armor plating of a tank on you, no one is getting up from that.

Also also, moded people and violencing makes life interesting. I don't know about you, but just sitting in Summit arguing the same things again and again and seeing the same discussions again and again while we wait for CCP to further an arc is just not fun. We have it well within ourselves to make our own arcs and own fun, so why not do it with violencing and the occasional freaky modder? It's a game, let's have fun with it!

Heres the thing, though.  I don't agree that tales of super-modified capsuleers having fistfights and brawls and fights straight out of chinese wushu movies is interesting, and the game already provides you with means of violencing people.  If you wanted to, Anslo, you could go and do actual physical harm to Tibs, by flying out to where we are, and blowing me up.

I don't find doing that in a chat channel where there are no rules in place and everything must take place in a predetermined manner or be considered godmodding to be interesting, at all.  All fights in freeform chatrooms turn into glorified versions of "I shot you", "Nuh uh, no you didn't", because there is no other way of resolving those conflicts.

Tib is heavily modified.  He's basically a walking hunk of metal.  It is for this very reason that you will never, ever see him getting into a fight that isn't in space.  It's my excuse to get away from roleplayers who want to try to force that sort of RP on me.

If it works for you, go for it I guess, but don't expect me or my character to be impressed.

Come blow me up in a way that matters.

[Gottii]

There is actually some PF specifically on this subject. 

The Burning Life mentions specifically that the more meat you replace with metal in the human body, the less "effective" that human being becomes.  It was vaguely described as a rule or principle.  Basically, TBL seemed to indicate that full on cyborgs were more servitors from 40k than the Major from Ghost in the Shell.

While I know a lot of people want and have played full on cyborgs for quite awhile, I felt I should mention there is some PF that speaks to the limits of augmentation.  Basically, it might be possible to make the human body as strong as a power loader, but in which case that human being will be as a smart or effective at various roles as a power loader. 

(can try to dig up my copy and provide page numbers, if needed)