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Author Topic: Hilmar's Mea Culpa  (Read 4979 times)

Julianus Soter

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #15 on: 06 Oct 2011, 10:50 »

"Pay to win": People using real world currency can acquire materials greater in value than those that spend in-game currency.

That is not the case.

Thus, no pay to win exists.
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #16 on: 06 Oct 2011, 11:12 »

Yup.

It's more like Pay for Shortcuts in game.
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Louella Dougans

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #17 on: 06 Oct 2011, 11:18 »

sceptical Lou is sceptical.

nearly 18 months or so ago, they said resources were temporarily focused away from EVE, but after the 18months those resources would be put back on EVE.
There was much posting on forums, and the :18months: meme made an unwelcome appearance.

So now we are, and after much more posting on forum and other activities, CCP have apparently said "we are going to commit to more spaceships", in an apparent change brought about by players/CSM/whatever.

But they were going to do that anyway, according to the 18months thing.

 :ugh: at it coming to pass when I am thinking like this instead of being \o/

 :|
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #18 on: 06 Oct 2011, 12:02 »

Yeah Lou, thats what was planned, so people believing its the CSM that made them backpedal or something... :s

The CSM sure has a few egoists, but I would personally consider it rather useful. Always better to have some bittervets yelling at their faces than just shitposting in EVE-O. I bet it doesn't really make a dent to CCP finances compared to, say, the marketing budget. (Because face it - the CSM has a marketing role, as well.)

The main issue is that they take A LOT of time for CCP. I have talked to one of them, and he told me that without even noticing. Each day, they speak several hours with CCP staff. And for what ? To discuss balancing and gamedesign. FFS, gamedesign. Do they think they are some kind of professionals or something ?

The CSM could be useful if they were just here to actually communicate (in both ways) instead of participating to stuff they have no skills for.

Well, ok,  I am unfair. They are actually consulted for feedback. But I can think of many better ways to do that.

Easily the most encouraging thing I've seen out of CCP since I started playing about 18 months ago, right before Tyrranis and PI. I saw some of the vids they did about how awesome PI was gonna be, and then I saw the implementation :s and chatted with some of the bittervets and so the story goes.

Since then, it's been the continuing story of "Wow, this is gonna be awesome!" followed by "wtf is this shit?"

Hilmar coming out and saying, "I fucked up, my bad. Here's what we're going to do to fix it:" is awesome in my book.

And as icing on the cake, one of the things he listed as broken was Faction War. Maybe it'll finally get some love.

I do think that too.

http://www.eveonline.com/devblog.asp?a=blog&nbid=2672

Thoughts on this?

He's lying.    Eve already has pay to win in the form of plex and based on his previous comments that is exactly how he perceives  it.     He's not been humbled in the least, he's just decided he has to diplomatic for the time being.


Just hoping that he will walk the walk instead of just talking the talk.

EVE has been circling the drain for ages, new ships and promises of fixing mechanics that have been broken for years will not bring it out of that.

I'd rather see them fix existing ships like the Raptor rather than put in new ships that could be the next super caps.

My mind, exactly.

"Pay to win": People using real world currency can acquire materials greater in value than those that spend in-game currency.

That is not the case.

Thus, no pay to win exists.

I think it is actually definitly the case : you pay RL money for PLEX, then you sell said PLEX to acquire ingame stuff. If that PLEX was bought by ingame currency and is thus not destabilizing the market and economy, ok, fine, but the point remains : you pay RL money for ingame stuff/money.

But, yes, depends on your definition of "pay to win". Paying with RL money for ingame stuff is paying to win for me, nothing more, nothing less.
« Last Edit: 06 Oct 2011, 12:04 by Lyn Farel »
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #19 on: 06 Oct 2011, 12:11 »

While I greatly appreciate the gesture from CCP, it ultimately amounts to a gesture, not a trend of action. I do dearly hope that at some point down the line I'll be able to point to this as the first or second spot on a line of "When CCP got their shit back on track" - but in the end, while the first points are there, the meat of what must be done is still waiting.

Even aside from the endless calls for fixes and balances (the list in Zulu's blog, if it pans out into actual work, will be a decently good start), CCP has a ways to go in their effort to fix things - most notably, while the Incarna/NeX/etc community disaster has mostly been calmed, how are they to keep it from happening again? Public communication has never been CCP's strong suite, and now more than ever they should hopefully see the neccesity of listening and responding to what they hear rather than just going "Naaah, they'll love it, just wait."
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Ghost Hunter

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #20 on: 06 Oct 2011, 13:15 »



At the surface it's rather encouraging, and I'll leave it at that. If they fuck it up, well, everyone seems to expect it anyway.
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Crucifire

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #21 on: 06 Oct 2011, 13:27 »

I think he summed it up quite nicely for himself in the last paragraph. Players are going to be watching what CCP does very closely.
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Mithfindel

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #22 on: 06 Oct 2011, 15:18 »

The main issue is that they take A LOT of time for CCP. I have talked to one of them, and he told me that without even noticing. Each day, they speak several hours with CCP staff. And for what ? To discuss balancing and gamedesign. FFS, gamedesign. Do they think they are some kind of professionals or something ?

The CSM could be useful if they were just here to actually communicate (in both ways) instead of participating to stuff they have no skills for.

Well, ok,  I am unfair. They are actually consulted for feedback.

Feel free to enumerate the ways you would find superior to having a customer-selected oligarchy to talk to developers. Admitted, I am not very knowledgeable about Scrum (the software engineering method used by CCP). Scrum is somewhat flexible for various uses, but at least CCP themselves have used to word "agile". Which, in software development, should not mean the Dilbertist "just start coding without planning and documentation", but rather frequent consultation of the customer and/or other related expert groups for feedback. Some agile methods even require that a customer representative (who quite likely is not a programmer and does not necessarily know anything about software at all) is present with each programming team or even with each programmer. Now, can't remember how many CSM delegates there are, but if there's about a hundred staff members working for EVE (out of 600 total!*) then a few middle management folks or senior game designers working with the CSM for a few hours a day is essentially nothing, even if each delegate would get their own pet dev.

After refreshing my memory from Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scrum_%28development%29), it is most likely that the CSM, which are one of the Stakeholders (in addition to "in-house customers" etc.), discuss with Product Owners. Some POs may also work with code, but that isn't required. Their main task is to collect use cases and do requirement engineering. As such, no, two hours daily is actually a very short time. Each dev team takes up to a day to launch their Sprint, and up to a day to finish a Sprint. One Sprint lasts from a week to a month of effective development time. Dev teams need not to be synchronous. If the PO isn't a coder, he can discuss the next Sprint with the Stakeholders and prepare the backlog ahead of time for the Sprint Planning meeting with the actual developers, i.e. collect requirements at a chat with the CSM, then write use cases and specifications which are actually used for planning with the dev team. Devs estimate how much time each task takes, and then the PO (possibly together with the CSM and other Stakeholders) discusses on priority of features, constrained by development time. Once this is done, the PO discusses the Sprint Backlog (short-term plan) with the devs. This is followed by the dev team deciding what to do, when to do, and how to do. (With the goal to do everything in the Sprint Backlog in the constrained time.) Additionally POs additionally get briefed daily (for about 15 minutes) and the PO and Stakeholders once the Sprint is done. Rinse and repeat. The goal of this all is two-fold: Requirements management for complex projects (what is possible, what new prospects were found out during implementation) and making sure that this doesn't happen (as it may happen when requirements are set to stone before the project starts, someone misunderstands, and the result doesn't get seen until :18months: later).

In addition to that, in a matrix organization an individual developer is likely having multiple roles in multiple development teams. So he can do his job for team B while the PO sorts out with Important Internet Politicians what team A should do next.

*) Admitted, the "over 600 employees" does include marketdroids & other suits, cantina staff and such people who are not exactly essential to game design.

Edit: History of the tree swing comic: http://www.businessballs.com/treeswing.htm (whoa, it's been around since the 70s or possibly late 60s)
« Last Edit: 06 Oct 2011, 15:26 by Mithfindel »
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Helen Ohmiras

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #23 on: 06 Oct 2011, 19:48 »

The problem is simple: we've been dealing with Tree Swings for quite a bit.  What we really want are really awesome internet spaceship battles.  If CCP delivers more of that, I'll be happy.

'Nuff said.
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hellgremlin

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #24 on: 07 Oct 2011, 08:49 »

I fear it may be too late. I suspect Eve will not recover its peak population. Too many people went off looking for other games - at this point, coming back to Eve just makes me think "same old shit, sitting in station, never undocking, watching SP tick up."

If CCP wants a chance in hell of recapturing their veteran player base, it needs to introduce something exclusive for those veterans. And pronto...
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2011, 13:31 by hellgremlin »
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Kaleigh Doyle

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #25 on: 07 Oct 2011, 10:35 »

I think its time they introduce the 'evolve into a Jovian!' for the veterans!

I dunno, I'm not too enthralled with what companies' PR elements have to say. If the product isn't to my satisfaction, then I'll find something else to play. I didn't buy any monocles and i turned off the CQ so my graphics card doesn't explode (:P), so I'm liking the changes they are implementing.
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Bacchanalian

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #26 on: 07 Oct 2011, 12:08 »

I'm trying very hard to not be cynical about it.  I've stayed subbed this long (barring the brief protest unsub), I can stick with it for another 6-8 months and see what CCP has on the horizon.
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Invelious

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #27 on: 07 Oct 2011, 15:12 »

I fear it may be too late. I suspect Eve will not recover its peak population. Too many people went off looking for other games - at this point, coming back to Eve just makes me think "same old shit, sitting in station, never undocking, watching SP tick up."

If CCP wants a chance in hell of recapturing their veteran player base, it needs to introduce something exclusive for those veterans. And pronto...

This, and its Octoberfest in KW, you coming down?
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hellgremlin

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #28 on: 07 Oct 2011, 16:45 »

I fear it may be too late. I suspect Eve will not recover its peak population. Too many people went off looking for other games - at this point, coming back to Eve just makes me think "same old shit, sitting in station, never undocking, watching SP tick up."

If CCP wants a chance in hell of recapturing their veteran player base, it needs to introduce something exclusive for those veterans. And pronto...

This, and its Octoberfest in KW, you coming down?
I might end up being there for work. I'm an editor for a beer magazine now.

edit: actually, might as well spam: http://www.thebeerreporter.com
« Last Edit: 07 Oct 2011, 16:48 by hellgremlin »
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Milo Caman

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Re: Hilmar's Mea Culpa
« Reply #29 on: 08 Oct 2011, 04:23 »

Cautiously optimistic. Been unsubbed for a while and I kind of miss things. Keeping one eye on the situation, if things suddenly improve, and CCP actually do what they say they're doing this time, I'll probably start playing again.
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