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Author Topic: Orbital Bombardment  (Read 5044 times)

Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #15 on: 04 Sep 2011, 15:07 »

I'll make a longer post on this tomorrow, when I have more time, Katrina - but in short, that question depends on 3 major factors:

1, do you wish for it to be fired out of your warships' primary weapon systems or deployed in some other manner?

Fired out of the warship's primary weapon systems, using the eight basic classes of weapons. Railgun/Blaster, Beam/Pulse, Arty/Auto, Cruise/Torp.

2, does collateral damage matter?

In certain weapon systems, I would expect it, like torpedoes. In others, I would more surgical strikes. In any case, the sheer size and power of the guns is going to make a very very big boom. I sorta expect collateral damage.


3, what kinds of defensive measures are in place to resist a possible bombardment?

I would expect some planets to have shield generators over domed cities or important buildings. Others would have reinforced underground bunkers. Most would at least have simple ground to air turret/missile emplacements to shoot down slower bombardment ordinance like missiles.

Also, assume this is taking place on a temperate world very much like Earth, or at the most exotic, a barren planet like Mars or Tatooine (Star Wars).

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #16 on: 04 Sep 2011, 21:20 »

Alright, I'm back now and will try to answer the questions more fully. BEWARE: Theory-heavy walloftext post incoming!

Before I'd begin, I'd like to also say that I will be assuming that projectiles do not neccesarily resemble the little images we're given ingame. The reason is twofold: 1, technically, there is no reason why multiple projectiles from different empires designed to do different things should resemble each other perfectly for variously-colored bands, and 2, the blurbs given on some ammo descriptions suggest they shouldn't resemble each other at all. Mind you, I'm not saying that all ammo looks different from any other type, but that it doesn't have to look the same.

I'll make a longer post on this tomorrow, when I have more time, Katrina - but in short, that question depends on 3 major factors:

1, do you wish for it to be fired out of your warships' primary weapon systems or deployed in some other manner?

Fired out of the warship's primary weapon systems, using the eight basic classes of weapons. Railgun/Blaster, Beam/Pulse, Arty/Auto, Cruise/Torp.

The reason I ask is that, frankly, it makes little sense to tie up vital warships from actual fighting duties when you could drop a line of satellites bearing a single weapons system into low orbit, possibly similar to the sentry guns we often see. These would be picked up after the campaign or perhaps serviced from week to week if the campaign went on.

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2, does collateral damage matter?

In certain weapon systems, I would expect it, like torpedoes. In others, I would more surgical strikes. In any case, the sheer size and power of the guns is going to make a very very big boom. I sorta expect collateral damage.

Actually, I was thinking more tactically than this - for instance, a Titanium Sabot shell, being a post-penatration detonating system, would be a very good low-collateral "bunker buster". A fusion round, on the other hand... well, even assuming it's a very-low-yield device, it's still a fusion warhead. Similarly, Antimatter L Charge could quite possibly be a city-clearer, while Tungsten L Charge would be a much "cleaner" round.

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3, what kinds of defensive measures are in place to resist a possible bombardment?

I would expect some planets to have shield generators over domed cities or important buildings. Others would have reinforced underground bunkers. Most would at least have simple ground to air turret/missile emplacements to shoot down slower bombardment ordinance like missiles.
[/quote]

Alright, sidenote here - I consider the viability of point-defense and interception systems in the EVE-verse to be quite low, due to a number of factors including the utter failure of existing systems to shoot down even the biggest, slowest ordinance in EVE and my knowledge of some of the defense-suppression systems used in ICBM re-entry systems in real life.

That said, the other option (shields of any sort) is a double-edged sword. The Gallente recognized that simply burying their command center in solid diamond would only push the Caldari to either beat on it until it broke or build a weapon that could level it - so they built a city on top of it as well. In the absence of having a human shield that large over you, throwing up an armor or force field offers you direct physical protection but also encourages the enemy to go to town with the biggest, nastiest, most powerful guns they can drag over - at least until the shield is on the verge of collapse, if they even care about the human cost.

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Also, assume this is taking place on a temperate world very much like Earth, or at the most exotic, a barren planet like Mars or Tatooine (Star Wars).

Fair enough.

Alright then, here are my thoughts...

Energy weapons are both blessed and cursed in terms of accuracy - on the one hand, you weapon travels at the speed of light, reducing targeting to something akin to point-and-click after atmospheric refraction is considered. On the down side, the atmosphere also means that your beam is going to spread out ("Bloom"), reducing its energy delivered to a single point. How much it does this would vary by planet - storm and plasma planets would practically come with free planetary shielding, while barren and to a lesser degree ice planets would be highly vulnerable. How much this would effect Battleship- or Dreadnought-class lasers is debatable; they certainly did a number on Starkman Prime and other worlds that bombardment was used on, but there is also much evidence that heavy collateral damage is an expected effect to even targeted bombardment, let alone a razing like Starkman Prime (not that the Amarr give a damn). Nonethless, Beam lasers would likely retain their role as high-accuracy, but limited-damage weapons.
I will also note that Lasers present an excellent first-strike weapon, as the ability to deploy into orbit and nearly instantly hit a target with a focused EMP - this being a secondary effect of laser-atmospheric interaction, especially if a Gamma crystal was used - would allow an attacking fleet to cripple defensive systems before a chance to respond could be had.

Hybrids are also struck with an interesting duality, but it's a bit different this time: Blasters would be utterly useless for actually projecting damage onto the surface, but they would make good defense-suppression weapons due to the EMP effect generated by shooting a ball of plasma into an atmosphere. Railguns, on the other hand, are iffier - they only fire at "hypersonic velocity", without guidance (note here that RL railguns are already firing guided projectiles at near-hypersonic velocities). As such, factors such as angle fired into the atmosphere at, atmospheric density and composition, and even wind would heavily effect accuracy. If the railgun round did hit, it would easily become a devastating projectile within a short distance (or longer, if it's fired with its Uranium/Plutonium/Antimatter payload...); furthermore, the inherent speed they are fired at could bypass point defenses by merit of simply being to fast to lock, engage, and destroy before it impacts. In short: Guidance needed, plx.

What they lack in muzzle velocity compared to hybrids, Projectiles more than make up for in sheer caliber. Unlike Hybrids, they don't have the sheer speed to dash in past point defenses, but there's plenty of room in the shell to carry decoys, ECM systems, or enough submunitions to make it impossible to off every warhead. Similarly, they don't have the sheer velocity to assist with staying on target, but unlike rails I can't find any indication that a Projectile round wouldn't carry some form of guidance. The difference between Autocannon and Artillery is fairly obvious here - ACs would fire a smaller caliber shell, with less room for stuff onboard, but they'd throw down more of them in a shorter time. Arties, bigger shells but not as often.

Finishing up with Torpedoes and Cruises, I'd simply treat them as an exaggerated version of Projectiles - bigger, slower, and a slower rate of fire - but man, plenty of room for submunitions, penatration aids, or even just a bigger bomb.
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Ulphus

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #17 on: 04 Sep 2011, 21:54 »

RAil guns vs Artillery :

I wouldn't have thought that the method of accelerating the projectile would make very much difference to the end result. I can't think of a good reason that the velocities of a rail gun couldn't be reached with suitable artillery - all it takes is enough propellant and a long enough barrel.

All the comments about final guidance and projectile type seem to me to be applicable to both rail-guns and artillery as well.
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Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #18 on: 04 Sep 2011, 22:06 »

Alright, now part 2 - how to make 'em better for dropping on DUSTers.

Lasers' bigest issue remains with atmospheric blooming. Putting aside Tachyon beams (for all their potential as bombardment weapons, trying to science them out makes my head hurt), the next best option is to simply increase their ability to "bleed" energy and still do damage, and the best way to do that is to pump more energy into them or focus the beam into a narrower band. In otherwords, lasers need to become more laser-ey.

Hybrids are going to mostly end up being focused on railguns - blasters are kind of at a dead end with regard to breaking through atmosphere. So, Rails: 1, guidance. 2, variations in actual payload - i.e., instead of using standard Hybrid rounds, why not a solid Tungsten slug? 2, BLOODY GUIDANCE.

Projectiles, while terribly destructive if simply dropped onto a planet and detonated, may require tweaks to their guidance to become a precision weapons. Additionally, projectiles don't currently carry penatration aids such as decoys, ECM emitters, or submunitions in case you want to take out anything smaller than a city block.

Missiles also suffer from the "smallest warhead blows up a lot" issue. In addition to what I mentioned with projectiles, I'd also suggest a sort of "active minelaying" technology with missiles - they'd be launched into orbit and allowed to orbit; a fire support request from a ground team or a strategic bombardment from the fleet above could call down innumerable pre-launched missiles, which aside from utterly overwhelming an enemy defense grid would also be quite hard on morale for the bombarded.

"Day 37 of the Seige. Food and water still holding. We've contained them around the initial landing sites, but munitions are running low, and the Federal Navy Offi- OHGOD THE SKY IS FALLING MISSILES EVERYWHERE!"


--------

Addition: Ulphus, I was more extrapolating from Real Life there than looking at EVE-verse stuff there; i.e., for a size comparison, while 16"/50 cal naval gun that armed the last US battleships had a top muzzle velocity of around 820 m/s, a railgun being considered to arm upcoming US destroyer designs has a top muzzle velocity of nearly 5,800 m/s (for top speed comparisons, a modern high-velocity tank cannon has a muzzle velocity of around 1780 m/s).

Admittedly, this is flawed logic - I don't know how the inside of a New Eden railgun or artillery piece works, but I'm working with what I know about, and I've yet to see any evidence that projectiles in EVE attain similar muzzle velocities to coil- or rail-launched weapons.
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #19 on: 05 Sep 2011, 01:13 »

I think a lot of what we see is oversimplified away from variation. For a game, EVE is incredibly complex... but compared to reality, not very much.

I think you had it spot on with the sentry drone bombardment things though... and the pre-launched missiles.

I'm taking notes of all of this here. Basically, I wanted to know if I could feasibly bring a battleship into orbit around a planet in RP and reasonably present a hostage situation. 'Do this or I level your city'. It was done in Xenocracy, but there was little information given. I was figuring to myself... would a Rokh with an eight strong broadside of 425s be as dangerous as we think? An Abby with a rack of Tachyons? A maelstrom with 1400s?

It's all speculation, but I wanted to make sure I asked around before threatening to bombard planets.

Lyn Farel

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #20 on: 05 Sep 2011, 06:01 »

Honestly already in eve roles (and science) are flawed. Railguns are the guns with a quick reload and a low alpha, while artillery have huge alpha and low refire rate. This is totally absurd. By the very core laws of cinetics, any railgun will beat 100 times a conventionnal chimical artillery, because its not even a linear gain we are talking about, but a quadratic progression². And will probably takes longer to reload due to heat issues, much like lasers.

However, eve does the contrary, so...

An example of what happens when a high velocity projectile hits a denser medium.

Meteors are pretty high velocity and made of some pretty tough stuff and they breakup and get smaller on entry.

The effectiveness of a laser weapon would decrease as it dissipates energy to the air around its path and also be refracted more as it reflects off the much higher particle count.   That in itself might be a weapon as all space weapons become area of effect, some with multiple areas of different effect (like wind rushing in to fill the vacuum left by the laser's super-heating).


Concerning your video, I may be wrong but it seems to me highly speculative to compare water with atmosphere (thus, a liquid with a gas), added to the fact that the guy is not firing at a 90° angle (but more a 45° angle). Though im no ballistic expert so... /shrug

Meteors, this is true. Depends of their speed of entry and the material they are made of though. I am pretty sure it is another story with lean projectiles with a high density and penetration factor. I am not saying this could work, but I am saying that we jump a little too fast to conclusions to my opinion here.

For the laser weapon, you only take as granted that the weapon is not powerful enough. We do not know how much focus and power are injected into the beam, so much for dissipation (the beam just breaks through the cloud cover and blows up a big hole). As for refraction, probably, which would mean like Esna said a much larger impact and a loss of surgical strike capability. EDIT : I think refraction would not even be a real issue when you consider that your beam clears up its path through all the crap and clouds filling the atmosphere, making it in milliseconds a totally clear atmospherical milieu where you would only have to worry about the perfect and homogenous refraction between space and air. And as your lasers probably use only a very thin wavelenght, the refraction would be the same for all the beam components, which would mean it to remain coherent and not dissipating.

What I was trying to say is that unless we have physicists experts here that can bring us sciencey proofs if something is possible or not, I do not see the point of arguing over this. 

« Last Edit: 05 Sep 2011, 06:09 by Lyn Farel »
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orange

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #21 on: 05 Sep 2011, 09:12 »

What I was trying to say is that unless we have physicists experts here that can bring us sciencey proofs if something is possible or not, I do not see the point of arguing over this.
It really isn't important enough to me to figure out what happens to a 800mm artillery shell when it hits a denser medium (atmosphere compared to vacuum).
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Altarr Orkot

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #22 on: 05 Sep 2011, 21:10 »

Quote from: orange
It really isn't important enough to me to figure out what happens to a 800mm artillery shell when it hits a denser medium (atmosphere compared to vacuum).

But the atmosphere is significantly less dense (by 3 orders of magnitude I think) than water, and that density won't be constant as it travels through the atmosphere.  I think the main issue is ensuring that the round doesn't burn up completely on re-entry.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #23 on: 08 Sep 2011, 15:10 »



That is all.
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Malcolm Khross

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #24 on: 08 Sep 2011, 17:14 »

Kala wins!
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #25 on: 08 Sep 2011, 18:23 »

and THAT is why you don't literally warp to zero on a planet... while flying a titan.

Mithfindel

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #26 on: 09 Sep 2011, 03:39 »

A few in-character quotes:

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"The initial volleys neutralized sixty-eight separate defense batteries while removing a mere ninety-eight thousand Minmatar from the viable worker stock. Praise unto God."
- Intercepted Amarr Navy transmission during orbital bombardment of "Eanna", Planet VI, The Hror System
and
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Orbital bombardment is very accurate. The bombs always hit the ground.
-Gallentean Military Manual

So, as for DUST, assuming something new isn't introduced (including a retcon / explaining how they didn't really care a few hundred years ago), the orbital bombardment option is likely going to be the "oh shit" button. Of course, one way to balance that would be implementing cover, i.e. characters who are indoors are safe.
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kalaratiri

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #27 on: 09 Sep 2011, 09:46 »

and THAT is why you don't literally warp to zero on a planet... while flying a titan.

Well, I do have a few bookmarks that are at the center of several planets. You don't bounce, but you can't see the planet either..
You can get them by simply warping to a customs office (starts closer than the planet warp in) and approaching the planet with an mwd. You'll hit the surface and go straight through :)
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hellgremlin

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #28 on: 09 Sep 2011, 11:45 »

I hope they take orbital bombardment seriously. It shouldn't just be a pixely explosion effect on the battlefield. It should be able to dramatically alter the planet itself.

Light bombardment, say, from a battlecruiser? Surface structures wiped from the planet's face in their entirety (if unshielded), dozens of Dusties incinerated in moments. Sustained bombardment by 50 Dreads and a Titan? That should turn most classes of solid planets into burning slag/lava worlds that take a few weeks to cool back down to a 'barren' planet, becoming non-survivable to Dusties without the appropriate gear. To prevent *every* planet from being so irreversibly ruined, Dusties or Eve players could gain access to terraforming.

Such 'resurfacing' could bring richer mineral deposits or something, so that obliterating a planet's crust has its own intrinsic value. Multiple attack options therefore present themselves: when attacking an enemy planet, do you strive to keep infrastructure intact in order to assume command of it once the enemy is gone? Or do you scorch everything, defending forces included, and begin re-building the broken world once it stops glowing red?
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #29 on: 09 Sep 2011, 13:20 »

I hope they take orbital bombardment seriously. It shouldn't just be a pixely explosion effect on the battlefield. It should be able to dramatically alter the planet itself.

Light bombardment, say, from a battlecruiser? Surface structures wiped from the planet's face in their entirety (if unshielded), dozens of Dusties incinerated in moments. Sustained bombardment by 50 Dreads and a Titan? That should turn most classes of solid planets into burning slag/lava worlds that take a few weeks to cool back down to a 'barren' planet, becoming non-survivable to Dusties without the appropriate gear. To prevent *every* planet from being so irreversibly ruined, Dusties or Eve players could gain access to terraforming.

Such 'resurfacing' could bring richer mineral deposits or something, so that obliterating a planet's crust has its own intrinsic value. Multiple attack options therefore present themselves: when attacking an enemy planet, do you strive to keep infrastructure intact in order to assume command of it once the enemy is gone? Or do you scorch everything, defending forces included, and begin re-building the broken world once it stops glowing red?

Please get a job with CCP.
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