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Author Topic: Orbital Bombardment  (Read 5029 times)

Katrina Oniseki

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Orbital Bombardment
« on: 02 Sep 2011, 01:51 »

Well with DUST 514 coming out... the concept of orbital bombardment has come to mind a lot for me. I don't mean in a gameplay sense either. I mean RP. Any of us should feasibly be able to point our guns at a planet and fire... but to what effect?

between the Xenocracy cheon and DAUST restrictions, it is clear that only battleship and larger (large and X-large) weapons are useful from orbit. Does anyone suggest maybe small and medium weapons could be too?

What sort of effects would these weapons have on a temporal world?

Railguns - pinpoint accuracy, variable damage, good strike platform

Blasters - viable? not sure, really. i dont think so.

Beams - very good platform, pinpoint accuracy, affected by weather.

Pulses - dont see much difference

Arties - pretty standard effects i would guess. less accurate probably.

Autos - probably not very accurate at all, good for carpet bombing

Cruise - seems like the ideal weapon for smart attacks, assuming you can wait for flight time

Torps - big ouch. probably more like a super nuke.

I would guess XL weapons are the real heavy hitters, with DD being world killers.

thoughts?
« Last Edit: 02 Sep 2011, 01:55 by Katrina Oniseki »
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lallara zhuul

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #1 on: 02 Sep 2011, 02:49 »

Ye olde chatsubo thread about orbital bombardment spawned by Theodicy.

Oh wait, that's not really helping is it.

Basically what you are doing is shooting at something through 10km of gas.

It will cause difficulty, since space ammo in all likelyhood is not designed aerodynamically, it's most likely designed for most damage in the space environment, it will most likely burn to cinder as it enters the atmosphere if it just doesn't skim off it.

That means that any projectile designed for space combat will be pretty much pointless when approaching orbital bombardment. All kinds of missiles count as projectiles.

Lasers will most likely be dispersed by atmospheric gases.

Most cost efficient way of orbital bombardment would be using big mass drivers that lob asteroids at the planet, even then the atmosphere would be the major problem with the whole thing. Causing inaccuracies and projectile disintegration.

The whole orbital bombardment as a capsuleer is pretty much pointless, you will never be able to choose the target you will be aiming at, the guy who chooses the target will be the DUST guy, making you nothing but a lackey with a big ship.
« Last Edit: 02 Sep 2011, 03:16 by lallara zhuul »
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Graelyn

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #2 on: 02 Sep 2011, 05:09 »

Hence why DUST bombardment will require a separate module, designed for the job.

Try not to overthink it, folks.  8)
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Kiki Truzhari

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #3 on: 02 Sep 2011, 05:55 »

Ye olde chatsubo thread about orbital bombardment spawned by Theodicy.

Oh wait, that's not really helping is it.

Basically what you are doing is shooting at something through 10km of gas.

It will cause difficulty, since space ammo in all likelyhood is not designed aerodynamically, it's most likely designed for most damage in the space environment, it will most likely burn to cinder as it enters the atmosphere if it just doesn't skim off it.

That means that any projectile designed for space combat will be pretty much pointless when approaching orbital bombardment. All kinds of missiles count as projectiles.

That's actually rather convenient, because then 'bombardment ammunition" can be introduced, and having that ammo would explain why we couldn't always shoot the planet.
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Desiderya

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #4 on: 02 Sep 2011, 06:03 »

Quote
The whole orbital bombardment as a capsuleer is pretty much pointless, you will never be able to choose the target you will be aiming at, the guy who chooses the target will be the DUST guy, making you nothing but a lackey with a big ship.

You kind of forget that there are two sides (of players) fighting. Which means that both want to use orbital strikes. Which means that there are probably two fleets in orbit. They probably have different intentions. Which could end in a battle in space.
In the end we have to wait for CCP to spill the details.

About the RP: I think it would use a separate module, or at least a separate type of ammo since a projectile entering an atmosphere will have to be vastly different than just something that's lobbed through space. (Add to that the "fun" Tritanium problem).
Also the earlier mentioned "10km of gases" are a bit of an understatement.

@Kiki Truzhari
I think there's some CONCORD regulations that make it impossible for capsuleer vessels to target certain things, like planets.
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Alain Colcer

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #5 on: 02 Sep 2011, 08:31 »

Hence why DUST bombardment will require a separate module, designed for the job.

Try not to overthink it, folks.  8)

Its just a big chunk of rock sent into a proper orbital insertion vector directed at the location you want, that cause currently you cannot "position" yourself on the side of the planet you want to bomb, the trajectory must be handled by the module.
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Bureeiku

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #6 on: 02 Sep 2011, 19:20 »

Or rather, it is a maser that is designed to heat up an explosive power core at a particular installation.  Delivery of a combustible or atomic payload via the atmosphere is not as practicable as the excitation of a concentrated reactive element by EM waves on the planet surface.  This has the added interesting benefit of requiring the deployment of such an element by ground troops, though it is feasible that such a component would exist at a sci-fi future industrial installation.

Just sayin'.

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BloodBird

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #7 on: 04 Sep 2011, 00:30 »

Ye olde chatsubo thread about orbital bombardment spawned by Theodicy.

Oh wait, that's not really helping is it.

Basically what you are doing is shooting at something through 10km of gas.

It will cause difficulty, since space ammo in all likelyhood is not designed aerodynamically, it's most likely designed for most damage in the space environment, it will most likely burn to cinder as it enters the atmosphere if it just doesn't skim off it.

That means that any projectile designed for space combat will be pretty much pointless when approaching orbital bombardment. All kinds of missiles count as projectiles.

Lasers will most likely be dispersed by atmospheric gases.

Most cost efficient way of orbital bombardment would be using big mass drivers that lob asteroids at the planet, even then the atmosphere would be the major problem with the whole thing. Causing inaccuracies and projectile disintegration.

The whole orbital bombardment as a capsuleer is pretty much pointless, you will never be able to choose the target you will be aiming at, the guy who chooses the target will be the DUST guy, making you nothing but a lackey with a big ship.

Even today, bombarding a planet from orbit is a possibility, though it might well be a highly costly one.

Assemble a nuke. Or a Fuel bomb, if you want to be 'clean' about it. Or just a big collection of whatever explosive you wish to use. Assemble this in the center, perhaps a cylinder-shaped container, shielded from and separate from the rest fo the module. Now, deploy a rack of, for example - cruise missiles. Shield this rack just as the bomb in the center. Add another rack of cruise missiles/w.e around this one and repeat until you're satisfied with the amount of firepower or until the budget is to high or the target(s) are sure to be vaporized.

Set the entire thing on a heat-shield for planetary re-entry - if you can make it solid enough to get people and thier shuttles back down without burning to a fine misty smoke in the atmosphere since the 60's, you can shield this weapon. Assemble, attach to shuttle, launch to space, deploy on a station or whatever, ready to go. When needed drop to the earth in whatever angle or such needed to prevent burning up and hit whatever city/nation you want to remove from the map.

Send it down. Once beyond the part of the atmosphere that might burn it up, blow off the outher edges and fire the missiles in whatever way is most practical, guide these to whatever designated targets(s) they go to. Blow off the next layer and repeat. Try to have the core bomb fragment hit more-or-less on whatever you want to destroy and detonate it x meters over the surface to inflict maximum damage. Bonus points if you managed to design the heat-shield in a manner where it would turn into a gigantic, glorified frag-grenade when blown up, for even more destructive power.

If all else fails and it's not really possible to make this kind of weapon in today's world, wait 20-30 thousand years and make them en-masse in a universe that has the tech needed, and leaders cold enough to deploy them. Might even replace those explosive warheads with anti-matter bombs and/or place a really big one in the center. Distribute to enemies as needed, don't forget to paint "xoxo, your pal, [insert name]" on the front, for hilarity, or maximus cheese, depending on who asks...

Yes, I'm being overly sarcastic. IMHO once you figure out how to get space-faring objects/people back down without unfortunate fatal incidents or immolation due atmospheric re-entry, actually bombing a planet like this becomes a piece of cake. That or just drop a huge rock on them to kill the planet cheaply, if needed, though that's covered allready.

Ofc, I'm sure this was not exactly the topic here, likely more of "tony G did not do his homework - again" or somesuch.


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lallara zhuul

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #8 on: 04 Sep 2011, 00:36 »

I think the topic was more on the lines of 'are the space combat guns viable weaponry for orbital bombardment.

The consensus seemed to be 'No.'
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Katrina Oniseki

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #9 on: 04 Sep 2011, 01:50 »

Alright, to continue the question then... what sort of special ammunition could be employed on the various weapon types in EVE for a viable bombardment? Or are Mass Drivers really the only option available?

I mean... the EVE Forever video showed a dreadnought firing at a planet with Railguns. While that could just be :psyccp: or whatever.. it implies that Dreadnoughts can use XL Rails to respond to orbital strike requests. Maybe they didn't have the mass driver ready for the video, so they used rails.

I dunno. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way it could work.

Esna Pitoojee

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #10 on: 04 Sep 2011, 02:23 »

I'll make a longer post on this tomorrow, when I have more time, Katrina - but in short, that question depends on 3 major factors:

1, do you wish for it to be fired out of your warships' primary weapon systems or deployed in some other manner?

2, does collateral damage matter?

3, what kinds of defensive measures are in place to resist a possible bombardment?
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Altarr Orkot

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #11 on: 04 Sep 2011, 04:04 »

Alright, to continue the question then... what sort of special ammunition could be employed on the various weapon types in EVE for a viable bombardment? Or are Mass Drivers really the only option available?

I mean... the EVE Forever video showed a dreadnought firing at a planet with Railguns. While that could just be :psyccp: or whatever.. it implies that Dreadnoughts can use XL Rails to respond to orbital strike requests. Maybe they didn't have the mass driver ready for the video, so they used rails.

I dunno. I'm just trying to figure out if there is a way it could work.

From my understanding a railgun is a 'mass driver' and I'm sure it's quite possible to manufacture railgun ammunition with good re-entry characteristics (some current ammunition might work okay too, not an expert) that can be fired from dreadnaught or even battleship guns.

Similarly missiles designed for atmospheric re-entry could conceivably be fired from existing launchers to strike with the same sort of precision we get these days out of missiles.
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Lyn Farel

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #12 on: 04 Sep 2011, 04:17 »

Unless you are bombarding a storm planet with huge atmospherical disturbances, I highly doubt that high velocity propelled projectiles (and railguns shoot projectiles too, so they are included) would see any difference when entering atmosphere. And even if they weirdly have difficulties, we can also think that targeting computers are competent enough to compute a good trajectory. Are they accurate enough ?

And for laser weaponry, is the focused beam of EM waves (photons and stuff) powerful enough to vaporize cloud layers ?

We are in SciFi settings with unprobable scenario already sciencey wise. You can find a lot of justifications if you really want it.

Though I like the bombardement special ammo idea.
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orange

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #13 on: 04 Sep 2011, 08:47 »

An example of what happens when a high velocity projectile hits a denser medium.

Meteors are pretty high velocity and made of some pretty tough stuff and they breakup and get smaller on entry.

The effectiveness of a laser weapon would decrease as it dissipates energy to the air around its path and also be refracted more as it reflects off the much higher particle count.   That in itself might be a weapon as all space weapons become area of effect, some with multiple areas of different effect (like wind rushing in to fill the vacuum left by the laser's super-heating).

It is all very hard stuff.  Space-to-Ground technology thus far as focused on returning valuable cargoes/weapons packages (nuclear weapons).  To my knowledge, these all use a similar blunt-nose, heat shielded, leading section.  From my understanding, hypothesized Tungsten Rods utilize an ablative leading point that pushes the air way from the control sections.  Lastly, one of the biggest challenges faced by the Space-based Solar Power concept is the dissipation of energy in transfer to the ground station.

Eve however has never been a hard-science setting where it matters.
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Ember Vykos

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Re: Orbital Bombardment
« Reply #14 on: 04 Sep 2011, 12:26 »

I think this might be one of those cases where we have to handwave the science behind it, and just figure that the technology in EVE is advanced enough to have figured out a way to solve the problems presented here.
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