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[Revan Neferis]

This is eve after all, I expect even the vanity item "pvp" will be brutal.

Now that's an interesting concept, and I hope it comes to it. Would definately add a new layer of reality to my enjoyment.

btw my new portrait!



I don't think Jade's ever looked more like the miner it says in her ancestry notification!
(either that or in prison!)

Prison more likely love lol. Still, its exotic, has a certain appeal. I like it.

[scagga]

What Ciarente said.  It'll rape the economy.

Hearsay.  Where's your evidence?

I have provided several reasoned arguments as to why I do not subscribe to this hearsay view.

There are no complaints that the introduction of T3 hulls 'raped' T2 demand (HACs and Recons), and that might have something to do with how expensive they are.  So how can the introduction of Aurum items damage other items when T3 items haven't been noted to have an effect?

I refer you to this post I made in a neighbouring thread, which has not yet been challenged by a reasoned counter-argument:

The issue with that Scagga is that with Plex purchases, the items being bought still have to be made by players. Those that do buy faction fitted tengus using plex, don't get those tengus out of thin air. they have to be produced by player actions. This is where Aurum breaks the system, by simply adding items flat out to the world, with no production cost, and no input, it creates a positive feedback loop that depreciates the value of everything else over time and leads to a market collapse.

Let me break this down.

You accept PLEX because another player has made the isk, but it doesn't change the fact that someone is effectively buying an ingame advantage.  Logic from that statement dictates that the principle of buying an ingame advantage is not wrong.

I see 'because there is player work involved, it is valid', as something based on a sentimental principle rather than a factual utilitarian view.  Realistically, I do not think that Aurum will break the EvE market, even if there was the desire to spend the stupendous amount of $$$ needed to get a measurable advantage. I'll elaborate below.

Lets use a simple example: I have a Machariel. A Machariel costs roguhly 900 million isk currently. If I could buy a machariel, or a ship that performed the same role, as well as it does, for Aurum, then those would be bought instead of Machariels, until they came down in price to be equal to machariels, and then would continue to fall in price as more of them were introduced to the world without any ingame investment, dragging the price of Machariels through the floor, people stop running missions for the angels because of this, because its not cost effective, and that gameplay element just dies, that market just dies.

I don't agree with this example. Let's look at history:

- The introduction of the machariel did not destroy the tempest. Both can make great projectile platforms, but the machariel is better.  People still use Tempests because Machariels are too expensive to use en masse.
- The introduction of the Navy issue Raven did not destroy the Raven.  People still use Ravens because Navy issue ravens are too expensive to use en masse.
- The introduction of the transport did not destroy the hauler.  People still use haulers because transports are too expensive to use en masse.

All of these products are better than their predecessors at the same role.  However, they cost more.  Therefore the user risks more, which affects demand.  The prices of the predecessors are stable and related to their production costs and prevailing supply.

So, if an Aurum-obtainable ship is introduced at a price that is much higher than that of a Machariel, nobody in their right mind would resell it for isk for less than they could get by buying and reselling PLEX.  In that way, one can pin the price of a unique aurum at a price that very few can afford. 

The demand for ships will always increase.  The amount of isk in the system is increasing, and the number of players who can fly better ships has always been increasing.

Much like demand for a faction item is not destroyed by the existence of deadspace items, the demand for a machariel is not destroyed by the introduction of something better (and much more expensive) than it.

People already have almost unassailable ingame advantages (T2 BPOs, certain moons they can defend with all their friends and 10s of millions of SPs...).

And here:

if your expensive, superior ship becomes cheaper, it drives down demand for the ordinary ship

Let's be fair here.  Demand will always be increasing.  Even with an increase in usage of 'superior aurum ships', the fraction of the market they will represent will be small and it will be a long time before people can afford to buy them in fleetworths of quantity.

[Ciarente]

there are in-game capacity constraints on the production of macharials and navy ravens which would not exist with items created with a push of a button in the NeX store.

[Jade Constantine]

there are in-game capacity constraints on the production of macharials and navy ravens which would not exist with items created with a push of a button in the NeX store.

this.

[Misan]

there are in-game capacity constraints on the production of macharials and navy ravens which would not exist with items created with a push of a button in the NeX store.

I said exactly that in the other thread but people seem to have ignored me.

[Victoria Stecker]

There is, of course, as way to avoid the damage to the market, and it seems to be what CCP decided to do with the initial release items in NEX - make everything so outrageously expensive that the demand is minimal - things genuinely are 'vanity' items, as they are far more expensive than their practical value. This also accomplishes CCP's other stated goal of not inflating the price of plex.

Basically, NEX has the potential to completely hose the market and blow the price of plex through the roof, but only if things are priced near their practical value. By selling things for ten to twenty times what they are worth, everything becomes a vanity item with minimal impact on the market.

[Jade Constantine]

there are in-game capacity constraints on the production of macharials and navy ravens which would not exist with items created with a push of a button in the NeX store.

I said exactly that in the other thread but people seem to have ignored me.

I think scagga flood-blocked your argument Misan

[Revan Neferis]

By selling things for ten to twenty times what they are worth, everything becomes a vanity item with minimal impact on the market.

Of course, but what will the protesters " protest" against if all logic is acknowledged? Will break their fun.

[Raze Valadeus]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't CCP also indicate that to get a "pretty" ship or any kind of ship from the NeX market, you also have to turn in the basic ship hull as part of the cost?

I'm no expert on the market in EVE, but I think this would at least have some limiting effect on the availability, as it would still require production to be made on the base hull.

[scagga]

there are in-game capacity constraints on the production of macharials and navy ravens which would not exist with items created with a push of a button in the NeX store.

There are both in- and out-of-game capacity constraints on the introduction of NeX items.

In-game constraints: Demand.  A reduction in the isk resale price of NeX items will lead to lower supply as those who wish to make isk from $$$ will go to plex.  Those who buy directly for themselves will not cause significant harm to the market as explained (see T3 example).

Out-of-game constraints: Player wealth.  There is a reason why not everyone has multiple accounts (I for one only had a second account for short periods then gave up due to the excess expenditure).  Likewise, there is only so much $$$ people are willing to part with, and that will limit the supply of NeX items.  If there are a wide variety of NeX items then it is likely that $$$ will be spread, diluting any perceived effect of a single item on the other markets.

The fact that the controlling factors are different does not logically lead to a conclusion that they are bad for the game.

If there was such a high demand for converting $$$ into isk then the PLEX market would be crashing.  Is it?

[Ciarente]

The in-game constraints of NeX items:

• Demand

The in-game constraints on Machariels:

• Demand
• blueprint supply, affected both by drop rate and by number of players undertaking the activity to get the BPC
• ability of said player to get BPC to a manufacturing point or sale point without being ganked
• mineral price
• mineral availability
• Manufacturing ability of character
• availability of manufacturing slots - both in the factory, and the number the character can operate
• time taken to manufacture
• ability of player to get finished ship to a sale point without being ganked

Out-of-game constraints on both NeX items and faction BSes:

• player wealth

The controlling factors aren't different.  The NeX item just has fewer.

[scagga]

The in-game constraints of NeX items:

• Demand

The in-game constraints on Machariels:

• Demand
• blueprint supply, affected both by drop rate and by number of players undertaking the activity to get the BPC
• ability of said player to get BPC to a manufacturing point or sale point without being ganked
• mineral price
• mineral availability
• Manufacturing ability of character
• availability of manufacturing slots - both in the factory, and the number the character can operate
• time taken to manufacture
• ability of player to get finished ship to a sale point without being ganked

Out-of-game constraints on both NeX items and faction BSes:

• player wealth

The controlling factors aren't different.  The NeX item just has fewer.

You concede that there are in effect controlling factors on the supply of NeX items.  You also concede that they are different, based on your lists - if something is on one list but not on the other, there is a difference, right?

However I would like you to explain (without rehashing an argument that has been debunked like 'omg crash the market') why the proposed system is bad for EvE overall.

[Victoria Stecker]

You concede that there are in effect controlling factors on the supply of NeX items.  You also concede that they are different, based on your lists - if something is on one list but not on the other, there is a difference, right?

However I would like you to explain (without rehashing an argument that has been debunked like 'omg crash the market') why the proposed system is bad for EvE overall.

Assuming that it is handled in a way which does not screw up the market, then we are left with the fact that it simply doesn't make a lot of sense in EVE. AFAIK, CCP has been trying to move away from NPC sell orders in favor of making everything player-made. NEX is essentially an NPC sell order, with a price that varies based on the value of a plex. At a minimum, it doesn't seem to fit with the vision of the game.

Best case scenario: Items in NEX are balanced and priced in such a way that they do not significantly impact the player economy. This most likely means keeping everything massively overpriced relative to its practical value.

Absolute worst case scenario that I don't expect to ever see happen: CCP places items in NEX which are comparable to player made/acquired items and are priced such that they aren't pure vanity but might actually make sense to purchase for ordinary use. An example that was mentioned was faction standing - you can already 'buy' faction standing with tags. If you can buy faction standing in NEX, it will place a ceiling on the price of said tags.

So, why is NEX bad for EVE? It may not be inherently bad for it. If handled properly, it may not do anything bad to it. It would make more sense (to me) for it to do something like offer bpcs rather than straight ships and mods, but we'll see if they do that.

It has the potential to screw things up if handled poorly and even if it doesn't, it still just feels weird, to have a game where damned near all things are either made or earned through player action, and the game has been moving more and more in that direction, and now things can just be bought and 'poof' appear out of nowhere.

This will be mitigated if the store instead sells bpcs which can be used to produce the item from raw materials.

[Ciarente]

Firstly, I disagree with your characterisation of a reduction in constraints in supply as a 'difference' in constraints.

I also note that my initial reference was to 'capacity constraints on production'. I take it from your silence on capacity constraints on production and limitation to demand-side ceilings that you concede there are no constraints on how many items an NPC vendor can produce nor how fast nor are they dependent on materials of any kind sourced from any place.

In fact, every single in-game supply-side constraint is absent from NeX items.  Thus, your argument by analogy with the introduction of different ship types manufacturable in game by player-characters (we have Machs, people still fly 'pests) is misleading: the price and availability of faction and T3 ships is not only limited by the number of people who want them and are willing to cash in PLEX (or forgo buying a PLEX to save themselves sub money) for them: their supply is limited by additional factors not applicable to T1 ships (you don't have to take any special means to obtain a Tempest BPO, while you do a Mach BPC, and you have to rinse-repeat for continued manufacture; as for T2 and T3, they require special skills and special materials not needed by T1). Not only will NeX items not have supply-side constraints higher than existing items: they will not have any at all.

Secondly, as I said in my first post, as someone who enjoys manufacturing and market PvP, the introduction of a competitor into every single station, if they are selling comparable or better goods to me, who has no supply-side constraints, would be disastrous for my enjoyment of the game.  Any market niche occupied by NPC vendors is not one players can participate in to any profit, as they have zero costs, infinite immediate supply, and an arbitrary price unrelated to mineral or other component prices.

The outcome on the economy of Eve would be for those sectors of it to be vacated by players.  This would reduce demand for the minerals and components used in those sectors, resulting in players also vacating the supply-side activities involved in supplying those minerals and components, i.e. mining.

Now, this may not seem to you to be a bad thing. Fewer industrialists and miners, in exchange for the convenience of an NPC vendor able to provide you with a ship instantly in every station, perhaps a fair trade for some.

But for those of us for whom those activities are our gameplay, the introduction of magiced-out-of-nothing ships or modules would remove our playstyle from Eve.

And I believe that reducing the diversity of activities and players is bad for Eve overall.

[Bacchanalian]

FYI, rape =/ anything that happens in an internet spaceships game.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/rape

7. to plunder (a place); despoil.